R+L=J v.17

[Eucratides_Megas]

Mind you all this happens when the Others are marching south....

Dead things in the forest, dead things in the water... GRRM set us up for Winds of Winter with this perfectly creepy line. His handling of the Others has been just right, never showing us too much of them, just constantly reminding us of their mere presence. And now we know wights can swim...so much for sailing to safety :laugh:

[James Nicholls]

Of course it's also possible the Night's Watch won't even exist. Jon Snow was just about the only thing keeping the Wildlings in line, and dead/injured/undead/resurrected/whatever he'll probably be incapacitated for awhile. Long enough for the Wildlings to rise up against a much more hostile Night's Watch (I have a feeling the hostages won't stop them for long). And without the Night's Watch, there will be nothing stopping the Queens Men and the Wildlings from coming to blows.

Mind you all this happens when the Others are marching south....

I think this is the main flaw in the attacker's plan. They say it's "For the Night's Watch", but anyone who had thought it through would see this could only harm the Night's Watch. Even if Jon had left and taken some Wildlings, the Watch would still be stronger than if they killed him.

[Ghost714]

I'm not saying what they did was justified, but here is the way they see it in my openion (Jon's attackers that is).

NUMBER ONE- They do not count any of the Wildlings as assets. Even though the Wildlings make the NW like five times stronger than it was without them.

NUMBER TWO- I don't think they killed Jon because he was taking the Wildlings with him, what I mean is I dont think they thought of it as Jon taking away some of the strength of the Wall. Again that's because they do not view the Wildlings as a bennifit on the Wall, because they are extra mouths to feed, undisciplined, not trustworthy etc..

NUMBER FOUR- I believe they killed Jon because he was going to march an Army of Wildlings against the Boltons, thus bringing down all that heat on the NW. They believed that after Jon lost, the Boltons and Co. would come to the Wall and kill the NW for Jon's actions. Or even if they believed Jon could win against the Boltons, they probably thought The NW would become an enemy of the Iron Throne (because the Boltons were in bed with The Crown).

That's what they were using to justify killing their Lord Commander/ Jon

Again this is all how I viewed everything, I could be wrong....but that's my openion anyway.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why do you keep insisting that the promise is to take care of Jon? Maybe it was a promise to see Jon to the Iron Throne? The simple fact is: WE DON'T KNOW. I myself am pretty sure that it is pertaining to the care of Jon. But, do know???

I think the promise was to take care of Jon, and at this point, no one has offered up an alternative explanation that makes nearly as much sense.

It was never implied that Wylla was there. You are only assuming that she was.

Yes. I think that, given Wylla's obvious collusion in this charade on some level, the presence of multiple people at the Tower (someone other than Howland who found Ned) and the necessity of having a midwife/wet nurse on-site, it's a reasonable educated guess that she could have been there. If you disagree ... I really don't care, disagree if you want.

You don't know what the fever is from. You can merely speculate. Ned never intimates what the cause of the fever is. You can talk of Occam's Razor but we both know it is only a method to developing theory and is only as reliable as the FACTS given to us. MMMMkay

Ned never intimates what the cause of the fever was because if he'd said it was from childbirth, that'd basically give the entire thing away. Do you disagree that that's the case?

In terms of Occam's Razor, I'm just saying, the simplest explanation is probably the right one. Ned says she had a fever. If R+L=J is true, she would've just given birth to a baby. Complications in childbirth can cause puerperal fever and, in turn, death. Childbirth would have been the number one cause of death for an otherwise healthy young woman in the historical past whose society most mirrored that of Westeros, i.e. medieval Europe. So if Ned says she had a fever and that fever killed her, and she'd just given birth to a baby, it's not exactly a giant leap of logic to surmise that the childbirth is what led to the fever that ultimately killed her. I think to argue against that at this point is to be contrary for its own sake, but if that's your opinion, have at it.

Again, you don't know what Ned's shame really is. What we do KNOW is that he has shame. We also KNOW that it is not because he betrayed his marriage.

I clearly put "shame" in quotation marks, using it figuratively. I was referring to the public shame that he puts on (i.e. telling Robert that he dishonored his marriage vows), not whatever actual, private shame he had.

You keep saying, "You don't KNOW." Well, no, no one KNOWS much of anything until Martin actually settles it. But even at this point, some stuff makes more sense than other stuff (in some cases, much more sense) and, yes, there's some stuff I'm willing to discard at this point. If you'd rather keep your options open, or close options that I'd rather keep open, go ahead.

[koftroy]

This is a very interesting thread, and I had no idea where to post so I just went to the end. ADWD has taught us a lot of who Rhaegar and Brandon were as men. It is one of the best parts of this book, learning and changing my opinions about Rhaegar, and learning more about Brandon, and other characters from that fateful day at Harrenall. Rhaegar was in no way a monster, or rapist like his father, but a gifted, amazing man, who as Jon Connington said "after he finished playing the harp, women were weeping". I also feel that he would have been a good king, and from what he had said to Jaime before being killed by Robert, was most likely going to remove his father from the throne.

As for Brandon & Lyanna: I have said this in other posts, but Brandon, was the charismatic, handsome, confident swordsman, and acted without thinking. When Ned tells Arya that she needs to think more about her actions, he says that both Brandon and Lyanna did not, and it ended up killing them both. We also know from AGOT that Ned and Lyanna were tight; really, really close, in fact, I thought that he was sitting with her, (like a protective older brother) when Rhaegar named her Queen of Love and Beauty. He even says that her death was so devastating, that not only he could still see the dead blue rose, now black, in her hand as she died, but he had to be physically removed from holding her body after she died in his arms. I will always stay true to Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, because I believe she had recently given birth, and was bleeding to death when Ned had gotten there. I also think that she gave birth alone, which is why she became ill and thus bled to death. Rhaegar clearly had left her there, guarded for a reason. I think she was pregnant, and she stayed there hiding out, because she was promised to Robert, amongst many things.

But, Ned has always been so close mouthed about Jon's mother, in fact he REFUSED to ever speak of it. Plus, her saying "Promise me Ned", would also account for his refusal to ever speak of Jon's mother. So we know that Robert would have killed that baby in a blink of an eye, and Catelyn said she never heard Ned speak as he did when she asked about Jon, and he said that they would never speak of it again. Ned suffered from the guilt of not being able to save his sister, and he let Catelyn be po'ed about him having cheated on her. But Jon was so loved, by his brothers and sisters. Jon says that he and Robb were best friends; and he loved Arya and Bran so much. Again, I do not think Ned would have done this if Jon was just some washerwoman's kid. But to him this was worth the price of saving Lyanna's son, and bringing him up as his own. He was honoring his beloved sister.

We also learned so much from our Ser Barristan, about Ashara Dayne. I do not remember how Aegon's Septa was described, but I definitely think Ashara threw herself out of that tower for the reasons he lists in the book. Ser Barristan was also in love with her, and knew that day when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, it was the beginning of something very, very bad. The way he describes Ashara as having beautiful thick black hair, and violet eyes, and who it turns out was in love with and slept with Ned. So I think she and Ned did have a little fling, she was pregnant with Ned's child, and that was why she was at Starfall. She sounded like such a strong vibrant woman, as described by Barristan, I wanted to learn more about her! But he said she threw herself into the sea because her baby was stillborn, and she was pregnant and not married to the father. So, I think the theory of her being Jon's mother is wrong, but that Ned and Ashara, did have a connection as they danced at Harrenhall (as has been stated somewhere), and it seemed had a few rolls in the hay. It seems Ned had no problem getting women pregnant, I mean Catelyn got pregnant on her wedding night!

Robert had an obsession with Lyanna, and I do not think she returned the feelings. In fact, if she was anything like Arya, running off with her lover, Rhaegar, would make sense. After she was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty, they could have already been starting something,( sly looks, kisses, you know that whole bit), but I think they were lovers. Rhaegar took her to the TOJ, most likely so they could be together without serious consequences; hide so to speak. It sounds so naive, but young love? Running away does not seem so bizarre, except Rhaegar was always described as being so perfect, that he must have been smitten by Lyanna.

She would be disgraced from having sex without marriage, with a married Prince, who also had children of his own. Neither of them took into account Brandon's reaction, which if she had thought about it, and he is this man as we learned in ADWD "took what he wanted", this reaction would seem normal. Ned always says he had no problem with Brandon being the one groomed to become Lord of Winterfell, because he was good looking, etc..., as he had no desire to be a ruler. As Catelyn said, she never knew that when she married Ned, who was a quiet, brooding man, and not at all like Brandon, that she would fall in love with his heart.

So until it becomes canon that Jon's mother is not Lyanna, that is where I remain. I also have secretly thought that Maestar Aemon knew had Targaryen blood in him, and thus his parentage. I don't know why I have always thought this, but I do.

But I have a question for everyone who were the Daynes? were they from Dorne? I mean Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning (I love the way he is described), was clearly so admired for his skills. When that tournament at Harrenhall is recalled by any of those who were there: Jamie, Ser Barristan, even Ned, The Sword of the Morning, and his shining sword, is always mentioned as part of, what was a glorious day. (Jaime was Knighted that day as well). I always see this clear blue sky, and his sword shining like the sun as its' rays reflected off of it and him.

But I have got to write in my blog, as ADWD was great, but I still have to re-read some parts (so I am clear; like I forgot about the Banker dude), and I read AGOT one more time.

Thoughts?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But I have a question for everyone who were the Daynes?

You're correct, they're a very old noble family from Dorne, based at Starfall. Their family sword is Dawn, which is supposed to be forged from a fallen star. Whoever is deemed worthy enough to wield is gets the "Sword of the Morning" epithet. Arthur Dayne was the last person to have it. The Daynes were very, very loyal to the Targaryens and there may or may not have been something between Ned and Ashara, Arthur's sister. There's some gossip in the south that Ashara Dayne is Jon's real mother. Arthur died at the Tower of Joy and Ashara supposedly committed suicide, but there are many readers who doubt that that happened.

[Ghost714]

I don't understand why people doubt that Ashara Dayne killed her self. She was "dishonored" by having a child out of wedlock, that child ended up being a still born girl. Ned who was almost her baby's dady, killed her brother.

Not to mention The Dayne's were very loyal Targaryen supporters, and the Targaryens had just lost. So im sure that was scary, not knowing what would happen to your house/family. We also know that Ashara Dayne was very good friends with Elia Martell, and I'm sure she was friends with Rhaegar if she was one of his wife's closest companions. So she had to deal with the death of two close friends (there are probably more im not mentioning too).

Again all this is on top of losing her baby recently, and her brother. ....I don't know about you guys but that's a whole lot of motive to kill herself in my book.

The story is that "She jumped from the top of one of the towers of Starfall, called the Palestone Sword, on the cliff atop the sea."

Maybe people doubt she is dead because we are told her body was never found? Keep in mind though it's not like they could call in the Coast Guard, or send out scuba divers to surch for the body. So I can't see that as my big proof for her being alive, because her body was never found. Also readers have said that suicide would have been out of character for Ashara, so they can't believe she off'd herself, but I think I listed off a few things above that would make anyone act out of character.

Im not saying it is impossible she is alive, I'm just saying I can definitely see why she would kill herself. Until we get more info thin going with the suicide.

[Jem]

I don't understand why people doubt that Ashara Dayne killed her self. She was "dishonored" by having a child out of wedlock, that child ended up being a still born girl. Ned who was almost her baby's dady, killed her brother.

Not to mention The Dayne's were very loyal Targaryen supporters, and the Targaryens had just lost. So im sure that was scary, not knowing what would happen to your house/family. We also know that Ashara Dayne was very good friends with Elia Martell, and I'm sure she was friends with Rhaegar if she was one of his wife's closest companions. So she had to deal with the death of two close friends (there are probably more im not mentioning too).

Again all this is on top of losing her baby recently, and her brother. ....I don't know about you guys but that's a whole lot of motive to kill herself in my book.

The story is that "She jumped from the top of one of the towers of Starfall, called the Palestone Sword, on the cliff atop the sea."

Maybe people doubt she is dead because we are told her body was never found? Keep in mind though it's not like they could call in the Coast Guard, or send out scuba divers to surch for the body. So I can't see that as my big proof for her being alive, because her body was never found. Also readers have said that suicide would have been out of character for Ashara, so they can't believe she off'd herself, but I think I listed off a few things above that would make anyone act out of character.

Im not saying it is impossible she is alive, I'm just saying I can definitely see why she would kill herself. Until we get more info thin going with the suicide.

You don't understand how people could doubt that Ashara killed herself? Have you been reading the same series as me? By now you should know to doubt everything!

Two of the most significant doubts from the first four books for me were Ashara Dayne killing herself and Aegon's head being smashed against the wall. Sure thing George, like those things really happened [sarc]. We were told about these "facts" just a little too often for my liking.

The Daynes were loyal Targ supporters, as you say, and so was Jon Connington. Like Jon, Ashara lost a lot when the Targaryens lost the throne. Plus, also like Jon, she had some personal difficulties (ie the stillborn baby, as fishy as that is too). Both Jon and Ashara had reasons to run away from their lives in Westeros. Both Jon and Ashara were loyal Targaryen supporters. Who better to raise in exile baby Aegon? Jon and Ashara. Who better to "prove" that Aegon is Aegon than his mother's good friend Ashara and his father's good friend Jon? Sure, both Jon and Ashara are allegedly dead, but people seem happy to believe that Jon Connington is Jon Connington (well except for Randall Tarly, but he hasn't met Jon in person yet and besides the two of them have "issues"). Why would they not also believe that Lady Lemore is Lady Ashara? Especially if she turns up with a certain distinctive white sword to prove her claim. Maybe.

There is no doubt what-so-ever in my mind that Lemore = Ashara.

[Ghost714]

One Of my problems with believing Ashara Dayne is Septon Lemore, is why did Tyrion not figure that out to? He figured out that Griff was really Jon Connington, and he figured out Young Griff was Aegon. He figured this out based on the knowledge he had about the two characters, Jon being in exile, the blue hair etc.

So given what he knows about Ashara Dayne and her death, and then the appearance and age of Septon Lemore, why wouldn't he put it together? Unless something doesn't add up?

Jon Connington's best friend was Rhaegar, and Ashara Dayne was said to be one of Elia Martell's closest companions. You and many others say who would be better to raise young Aegon, and I agree, but I feel Tyrion would have had the same conclusion. Again unless something did not add up. Does Septon Lemore have the right eyes to match Ashara Dayne? I can't recall this in her discription but if she does then I could believe Ashara is Lemore. Through Tyron's POV we get a very good discription of our lovely Septon, mainly because Tyrion finds her so attractive. I really can't blame him based on what we know about her charismatic personality, with her nude swims in the morning and all. I would defiantly find that appealing. This is the discription we have of Ashara Dayne, "She was tall, with long dark hair and haunting violet eyes, and said to be very beautiful". Well Lemore sure seems to be beautiful, but would Tyrion really fail to notice those "haunting violet eyes"? Again I can't remember this in the discription of Lemore? If its in there I'm very sorry and you can ignore everything I have said because I'm in the same boat as you, as far as Ashara being Lemore. I don't have my book I just lent it out to a friend, can anyone check on this, So I can know if I am an idiot for forgetting or not?

[koftroy]

One Of my problems with believing Ashara Dayne is Septon Lemore, is why did Tyrion not figure that out to? He figured out that Griff was really Jon Connington, and he figured out Young Griff was Aegon. He figured this out based on the knowledge he had about the two characters, Jon being in exile, the blue hair etc.

So given what he knows about Ashara Dayne and her death, and then the appearance and age of Septon Lemore, why wouldn't he put it together? Unless something doesn't add up?

Jon Connington's best friend was Rhaegar, and Ashara Dayne was said to be one of Elia Martell's closest companions. You and many others say who would be better to raise young Aegon, and I agree, but I feel Tyrion would have had the same conclusion. Again unless something did not add up. Does Septon Lemore have the right eyes to match Ashara Dayne? I can't recall this in her discription but if she does then I could believe Ashara is Lemore. Through Tyron's POV we get a very good discription of our lovely Septon, mainly because Tyrion finds her so attractive. I really can't blame him based on what we know about her charismatic personality, with her nude swims in the morning and all. I would defiantly find that appealing. This is the discription we have of Ashara Dayne, "She was tall, with long dark hair and haunting violet eyes, and said to be very beautiful". Well Lemore sure seems to be beautiful, but would Tyrion really fail to notice those "haunting violet eyes"? Again I can't remember this in the discription of Lemore? If its in there I'm very sorry and you can ignore everything I have said because I'm in the same boat as you, as far as Ashara being Lemore. I don't have my book I just lent it out to a friend, can anyone check on this, So I can know if I am an idiot for forgetting or not?

I said the same as above as it sounds like Ashara had a very distinct look, a difficult one to hide. I believe Tyrion would have picked her out as Ashara......I mean Ser B the Bold described the deep violet of eyes and dark hair. Even when he wonders if Ashara would have turned to Stark if he had been free to be with her...I think it was the truth. Also Tyrion noted Aegon's eyes, and they were not a deep, dark purple, but a lighter shade. Thus if the Septa had Ashara's eyes were the same he would have known. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but Arthur Dayne was his BFF, and Connington was part of Rhaegar's inner circle. I think becoming Hand, losing the Battle of the Bells, had alienated him from that group as Rhaegar more and more seemed like he was prepping to overthrow his father. Then JC was exiled, but remained loyal as we know from his memories of Rhaegar at his castle and bringing up Aegon.

As amazing and fiery as Ashara was, childbirth, heartbreak from love, losing beloved friends, a brother, would make anyone despondent. Was she alone? Not only that was she hiding out as Lyanna was, due to pregnancy?

Also, I do not know if she knew Rhaegar was dead, which made her future uncertain due to her closeness to Elia and Targ allegiance. I think her being dead makes sense. I just feel

Iike if she was still alive she would have showed up by now. But I definitely love the new flashbacks and I would love to hear more about her.

I do not know about you but it seems there were a lot more aristocratic women who were fighters for what they wanted, even though it cost them everything.

[Tree Warg]

"You don't understand how people could doubt that Ashara killed herself? Have you been reading the same series as me? By now you should know to doubt everything!" - Jem

Ain't that the truth! Preach on sister!

I think the promise was to take care of Jon, and at this point, no one has offered up an alternative explanation that makes nearly as much sense.

Yes. I think that, given Wylla's obvious collusion in this charade on some level, the presence of multiple people at the Tower (someone other than Howland who found Ned) and the necessity of having a midwife/wet nurse on-site, it's a reasonable educated guess that she could have been there. If you disagree ... I really don't care, disagree if you want.

Ned never intimates what the cause of the fever was because if he'd said it was from childbirth, that'd basically give the entire thing away. Do you disagree that that's the case?

In terms of Occam's Razor, I'm just saying, the simplest explanation is probably the right one. Ned says she had a fever. If R+L=J is true, she would've just given birth to a baby. Complications in childbirth can cause puerperal fever and, in turn, death. Childbirth would have been the number one cause of death for an otherwise healthy young woman in the historical past whose society most mirrored that of Westeros, i.e. medieval Europe. So if Ned says she had a fever and that fever killed her, and she'd just given birth to a baby, it's not exactly a giant leap of logic to surmise that the childbirth is what led to the fever that ultimately killed her. I think to argue against that at this point is to be contrary for its own sake, but if that's your opinion, have at it.

I clearly put "shame" in quotation marks, using it figuratively. I was referring to the public shame that he puts on (i.e. telling Robert that he dishonored his marriage vows), not whatever actual, private shame he had.

You keep saying, "You don't KNOW." Well, no, no one KNOWS much of anything until Martin actually settles it. But even at this point, some stuff makes more sense than other stuff (in some cases, much more sense) and, yes, there's some stuff I'm willing to discard at this point. If you'd rather keep your options open, or close options that I'd rather keep open, go ahead

This is exactly my point AppleMartini. This seems to be personal for you?? You get angry and frustrated when different people do not see it your way. Why? Does your Masters of Insufferable Know it Allness in the Sci/fi-Fantasy section at Barnes & Noble depend on it???

I have never said that anyone was right or wrong. If there are FACTS that CLEARLY demonstrate a person to be misinformed than by all means we should all work to help that person along (myself included).

But, for you to banty about on what is right and what is wrong based on speculation.... Madness! You're right and you don't care & blah blah blah.

We are just having fun here.

Again, by my calculations we should have this resolved sometime in the next millenia... :bang:

[Buried Treasure]

If Tyrion had ever met Jon Connington or Ashara Dayne, it would have been only when he was a young child and so he would not be expected to recognise or remember either of them. He is more likely to be able identify Jon from descriptions because short-serving Kings Hand's make the history books, princess' companions generally don't. The tale of Ashara's suicide is out there, but probably not so often spoken of that Tyrion knows anything about it.

Still, Lemore seems to be Westerosi given that she has a Septa's learning. As the Dayne look is supposedly unique in Westeros Tyrion should be able to make some sort of connection if Lemore looks like a Dayne.

I think Lemore could be Ashara, but I kind of hope not. Only because I didn't really warm to Lemore, and I've always wanted to like Ashara despite us knowing almost nothing about her.

[corbon]

If Tyrion had ever met Jon Connington or Ashara Dayne, it would have been only when he was a young child and so he would not be expected to recognise or remember either of them. He is more likely to be able identify Jon from descriptions because short-serving Kings Hand's make the history books, princess' companions generally don't.

Nailed it, pretty much. Connington is a real historical figure, a Lord and a Hand of the King, known to have been exiled to Essos (rumoured to have died there, but only rumoured). What gives Tyrion the big clue though is that Connington uses the name Griff - matching his house symbol, the Griffon.

The tale of Ashara's suicide is out there, but probably not so often spoken of that Tyrion knows anything about it.

There is no way Tyrion should 'recognise' Ashara as Lemore (if that is who she is). Lemore is not acting like a noblewoman, not a leader and not using a Dayne synonym name. She is much less important a historical figure than Connington - she's a footnote to history at most, unless you were intimately involved. She is also known to have died in Westeros, so why would she 'appear' in Essos?

Still, Lemore seems to be Westerosi given that she has a Septa's learning. As the Dayne look is supposedly unique in Westeros Tyrion should be able to make some sort of connection if Lemore looks like a Dayne. I think Lemore could be Ashara, but I kind of hope not. Only because I didn't really warm to Lemore, and I've always wanted to like Ashara despite us knowing almost nothing about her.

Ashara doesn't have the distinctive Dayne look though, apart from the purple eyes which Tyrion hasn't noticed at all (perhaps couldn't be allowed to, for author's purposes, to keep the identity concealed). She has 'normal' dark brown hair.

Its funny that you say you didn't warm to Lemore, yet really wanted to like Ashara, since what we have seen of Lemore matches the very little we heard of Ashara. Attractive, vivacious, a bit of X-factor and a natural popularity with the menfolk.

[corbon]

This is exactly my point AppleMartini. This seems to be personal for you?? You get angry and frustrated when different people do not see it your way. Why? Does your Masters of Insufferable Know it Allness in the Sci/fi-Fantasy section at Barnes & Noble depend on it??? I have never said that anyone was right or wrong. If there are FACTS that CLEARLY demonstrate a person to be misinformed than by all means we should all work to help that person along (myself included). But, for you to banty about on what is right and what is wrong based on speculation.... Madness! You're right and you don't care & blah blah blah. We are just having fun here. Again, by my calculations we should have this resolved sometime in the next millenia... :bang:

Who's being the asshole here?

Apple Martini has replied to your questions stating her opinion. She hasn't bantied on about 'right and wrong', just what she believes to be considerably more likely than other options. And here you are throwing around insulting language like "Masters of Insufferable Know it Allness". Sounds like a little kid who has lost an argument and reverted to name-calling to me.

The truth is that some things are more likely than others. Doesn't make them right though. Some theories do fit the evidence better than other theories. Some theories have bigger problems fitting the evidence than others. Some 'objections' to theories are weak because they have missed facts or logical explanations. Some 'objections' to theories are strong because they point out a gap in a theory that can't (yet) be explained. If we can't discuss this, then there isn't any point and it isn't any fun. MacCumber becomes equally as likely as White Walkers being real*. So does alien spaceships destroying KL in the next book. Anyone can say anything and words really are wind.

An example is Ghost714's objection a few posts up about how if Ashara=Lemore Tyrion should have figured it out, since he figured out Griff. Quite simply, its not a 'good' objection, because there are lots of reasons why Griff was much easier to figure out than Ashara would be (apologies to Ghost 714 for singling out - just handily available). Not all objections are equal, and not all theories are equal.

*Hmmm, does GRRM have blue eyes and some obscure connection to the name MacCumber?

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

"You don't understand how people could doubt that Ashara killed herself? Have you been reading the same series as me? By now you should know to doubt everything!" - Jem

Ain't that the truth! Preach on sister!

This is exactly my point AppleMartini. This seems to be personal for you?? You get angry and frustrated when different people do not see it your way. Why? Does your Masters of Insufferable Know it Allness in the Sci/fi-Fantasy section at Barnes & Noble depend on it???

I have never said that anyone was right or wrong. If there are FACTS that CLEARLY demonstrate a person to be misinformed than by all means we should all work to help that person along (myself included).

But, for you to banty about on what is right and what is wrong based on speculation.... Madness! You're right and you don't care & blah blah blah.

We are just having fun here.

Again, by my calculations we should have this resolved sometime in the next millenia... :bang:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is exactly my point AppleMartini. This seems to be personal for you?? You get angry and frustrated when different people do not see it your way. Why? Does your Masters of Insufferable Know it Allness in the Sci/fi-Fantasy section at Barnes & Noble depend on it???

I have never said that anyone was right or wrong. If there are FACTS that CLEARLY demonstrate a person to be misinformed than by all means we should all work to help that person along (myself included).

But, for you to banty about on what is right and what is wrong based on speculation.... Madness! You're right and you don't care & blah blah blah.

We are just having fun here.

Again, by my calculations we should have this resolved sometime in the next millenia... :bang:

Am I acting angry and frustrated? I'm not. I'm trying to answer your questions. You're the one who felt the need to include a head-banging-into-a-wall emoticon. Maybe it's you who's frustrated?

Like I said, I believe what I believe and barring some concrete developments, it's not going to change. You're free to disagree. That's that.

[Tree Warg]

Who's being the asshole here?

Apple Martini has replied to your questions stating her opinion. She hasn't bantied on about 'right and wrong', just what she believes to be considerably more likely than other options. And here you are throwing around insulting language like "Masters of Insufferable Know it Allness". Sounds like a little kid who has lost an argument and reverted to name-calling to me.

Wow! Really? You have the whole night to come up with something and you fire off "asshole"? Are you going to tell me to give back her lunch money too; Rick Moranis? I feel so overwhelmed.

I wasn't aware that I was winning or losing any arguments? I am also pretty sure that I have never "SWOOPED" in and told someone that they were wrong or they didn't know this or they didn't know that.

But, come on in, Corbon. The waters fine.......

Am I acting angry and frustrated? I'm not. I'm trying to answer your questions. You're the one who felt the need to include a head-banging-into-a-wall emoticon. Maybe it's you who's frustrated?

I was referring to Martin's inability to complete a book in less than a decade. But, because I didn't quote the book, page number and paragraph I can see how some could become confused...

I am sure George watched Drew Brees break the single season passing record tonight. I hope he was inspired to write.........