R+L=J v.17

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It sounds plausible. What bugs me though is what the Daynes would gain if they supported the deception. Just honoring the friendship between two dead men, Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar? That seems a bit thin.

Makes sense to me — a lot of families in Westeros are probably dormant Targ loyalists. Wylla would have nursed Jon and I can see where she'd be willing to go in on a deception to protect them. I think Ashara was allowed to remain as a candidate for Jon's mother because if Jon grew up to have some Targ features, people would assume he got them from a Dayne mother and not a Targ father. Ashara's "suicide" (if she's actually alive) keeps the pressure off of her if people go looking too hard for Jon's parentage, and would also explain why Ned took Jon north with him instead of leaving him with his "mother."

[FanTasy]

Makes sense to me — a lot of families in Westeros are probably dormant Targ loyalists. Wylla would have nursed Jon and I can see where she'd be willing to go in on a deception to protect them. I think Ashara was allowed to remain as a candidate for Jon's mother because if Jon grew up to have some Targ features, people would assume he got them from a Dayne mother and not a Targ father. Ashara's "suicide" (if she's actually alive) keeps the pressure off of her if people go looking too hard for Jon's parentage, and would also explain why Ned took Jon north with him instead of leaving him with his "mother."

But why would Ashara do this for a child that was not her child. Was she friends to Lyanna? Or did she do it for Ned?

Fake your own suicide because you are loyalist to the Targaryens? I find that hard to believe, truly.

There is a theory that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore, then she backs 'another' Targaryen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But why would Ashara do this for a child that was not her child. Was she friends to Lyanna? Or did she do it for Ned?

Fake your own suicide because you are loyalist to the Targaryens? I find that hard to believe, truly.

There is a theory that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore, then she backs 'another' Targaryen.

I don't know why she did it because we don't even know if her suicide is real or not. For all we know, she's deader than dead dead and we're grasping at nothing. Your criticism also works for the "Ashara is Septa Lemore" thing, by the way — why fake your death and go overseas to raise a Targ heir/fake Targ that isn't yours?

Being dead also gives her some level of cover if the true story is ever discovered. Ned can protect Catelyn by not ever telling her the truth, but if Ashara knows, she could theoretically be punished for the same treason that Ned would be, especially given her family. But you can't punish a dead woman.

[FanTasy]

Your criticism also works for the "Ashara is Septa Lemore" thing, by the way — why fake your death and go overseas to raise a Targ heir/fake Targ that isn't yours?

Exactly! It's looking into the darkness of the long night, where the speculations live :cool4: For what I grasped of Ashara = Lemore was that this was founded on a theory that Aegon or Fake Aegon was Ashara's not so stillborn child, which not only lived and was not a daughter but a son :dunno:

[Winterfell is Burning]

Well, some certainly believe that Jon Snow was born of rape, but there are those like myself who believe Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was consensual.

And of course there's a third option: Lyanna was a minor, so even if she consented, it's statutory rape anyway.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And of course there's a third option: Lyanna was a minor, so even if she consented, it's statutory rape anyway.

She was 16, I wouldn't call her a minor by Westerosi standards, surely?

[Dragonfish]

And of course there's a third option: Lyanna was a minor, so even if she consented, it's statutory rape anyway.

In our society, yes. In Westeros, not so much. Most Westerosi would probably object to the relationship not on age grounds (since Lyanna was old enough to be married off), but on the grounds that Lyanna was not allowed to choose her own husband. Hell, the whole marriage system in Westeros is basically a form of institutionalized rape, which would make most of the male characters rapists.

[corbon]

But why would Ashara do this for a child that was not her child. Was she friends to Lyanna? Or did she do it for Ned?

Fake your own suicide because you are loyalist to the Targaryens? I find that hard to believe, truly.

There is a theory that Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore, then she backs 'another' Targaryen.

Ashara was very close to the Targaryens, especially Rhaegar's family. Her brother was his best friend, and she was his wife's handmaid, a royal position of honour we assume (based on real analogous cultures).

So it is reasonable, if not guaranteed, to think that she may have many reasons for supporting the Taragryen dynasty continuance to the extent of going into secret exile (by means of a fake suicide) to raise the last hidden heir.

She may also have emotional connections to Ned, that isn't certain but also isn't ruled out.

She probably (according to Barristan) lost her own child within the recent past (Barristan says soon before, which could be up to a year maybe for an old man remembering events 20 years back, if her babe was conceived at Harrenhal when she was disgraced), which would be another reason she might jump (pun accidental, sorry) at the chance to raise a royal babe.

In short there are many reasons, several of which overlap, why she might fake a suicide to take someone elses babe (a Targaryen, or so she is told) into exile.

The Ashara=Lemore theory is founded on the very high number of similarities* and connections between the two characters. Supporting a Targ is merely an added motivation why, not the foundation of the theory.

As for it being 'another' Targ, if she is Lemore, she obviously didn't do it for R+L=J, since Ned took Jon. She did it for Aegon, who Varys spirited out of the Red Keep during the sack. It seems that the arrival of Ned with R+L=J and the connection with baby Aegon (possibly arriving south secretly to pick her up as arranged by Varys) as being roughly 'together' is something of a fortunate coincidence, though really, with all the things going on at around the same time right at the end of the rebellion it isn't that surprising that some might cross each other's paths.

Note that we don't know if Ashara's suicide is actually connected to Ned (or if he is 'in' on the suicide being fake), or what the timing is exactly on all these things. Was Ned at Starfall a day, a week, two weeks? Did Ashara commit suicide when he arrived, while he was there, as or just after he left? We have only rough guesses of these things, which could easily be wrong.

*- Same hair.

- Roughly same age (within estimation errors).

- X-factor personality and attractiveness.

- Swimmer vs 'suicide by drowning'.

- Both given birth, but no apparent child.

- Lemore thought of as 'Lady' by Griff

- Lemore expresses an apparent need to keep her identity hidden (or at least the Griff is not the only one, she seems to be talking about herself)

- Both Educated

- Ashara was 'dishonoured' and the usual path for 'dishonoured' young noblemwomen in analogous societies was religious vocation, a period of which would give her the skills and knowledge to pose as a Septa

The possible 'motivation' is just an extra to all these connections.

[Ghost714]

And of course there's a third option: Lyanna was a minor, so even if she consented, it's statutory rape anyway.

Age does not matter in The world of aSoIaF. When it comes to a woman what matters is if they have had there "moons blood " yet ( when a girl starts her period). That's what makes them legally a woman in Westeros. That's why they wait for Sansa to have hers before she could be married to Joffrey. Well at the time it was Joffery anyway.

So I believe without a doubt Lyanna was legally a woman at the time of her and Rhaegar's relationship. She was just about to be married to Robert before hand, that suggests she had already started her "moons blood" and was there for a woman.

[Ghost714]

And of course there's a third option: Lyanna was a minor, so even if she consented, it's statutory rape anyway.

Age does not matter in The world of aSoIaF. What matters is if they have had there "moons blood " yet ( when a girl starts her period). That's what makes them legally a woman in Westeros. That's why they wait for Sansa to have hers before she could be married to Joffrey. Well at the time it was Joffery anyway.

So I believe without a doubt Lyanna was legally a woman at the time of her and Rhaegar's relationship. She was just about to be married to Robert before hand, that suggests she had already started her "moons blood" and was there for a woman.

Sorry dont know why it posted my post twice.

[corbon]

And of course there's a third option: Lyanna was a minor, so even if she consented, it's statutory rape anyway.

Statutory Rape requires a Statute to be a possibiity. :dunce:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ashara was very close to the Targaryens, especially Rhaegar's family. Her brother was his best friend, and she was his wife's handmaid, a royal position of honour we assume (based on real analogous cultures).

So it is reasonable, if not guaranteed, to think that she may have many reasons for supporting the Taragryen dynasty continuance to the extent of going into secret exile (by means of a fake suicide) to raise the last hidden heir.

She may also have emotional connections to Ned, that isn't certain but also isn't ruled out.

She probably (according to Barristan) lost her own child within the recent past (Barristan says soon before, which could be up to a year maybe for an old man remembering events 20 years back, if her babe was conceived at Harrenhal when she was disgraced), which would be another reason she might jump (pun accidental, sorry) at the chance to raise a royal babe.

In short there are many reasons, several of which overlap, why she might fake a suicide to take someone elses babe (a Targaryen, or so she is told) into exile.

The Ashara=Lemore theory is founded on the very high number of similarities* and connections between the two characters. Supporting a Targ is merely an added motivation why, not the foundation of the theory.

As for it being 'another' Targ, if she is Lemore, she obviously didn't do it for R+L=J, since Ned took Jon. She did it for Aegon, who Varys spirited out of the Red Keep during the sack. It seems that the arrival of Ned with R+L=J and the connection with baby Aegon (possibly arriving south secretly to pick her up as arranged by Varys) as being roughly 'together' is something of a fortunate coincidence, though really, with all the things going on at around the same time right at the end of the rebellion it isn't that surprising that some might cross each other's paths.

Note that we don't know if Ashara's suicide is actually connected to Ned (or if he is 'in' on the suicide being fake), or what the timing is exactly on all these things. Was Ned at Starfall a day, a week, two weeks? Did Ashara commit suicide when he arrived, while he was there, as or just after he left? We have only rough guesses of these things, which could easily be wrong.

*- Same hair.

- Roughly same age (within estimation errors).

- X-factor personality and attractiveness.

- Swimmer vs 'suicide by drowning'.

- Both given birth, but no apparent child.

- Lemore thought of as 'Lady' by Griff

- Lemore expresses an apparent need to keep her identity hidden (or at least the Griff is not the only one, she seems to be talking about herself)

- Both Educated

- Ashara was 'dishonoured' and the usual path for 'dishonoured' young noblemwomen in analogous societies was religious vocation, a period of which would give her the skills and knowledge to pose as a Septa

The possible 'motivation' is just an extra to all these connections.

I think her "suicide" could be for both Jon and "Aegon" — "Aegon" because the kid needed someone to raise him, and Jon because she would have known the truth about his parentage. Jon had a family to raise him; "Aegon" didn't. There's a reason why Ashara is a popular candidate for Jon's mother among the well-heeled (Cersei, for example), and I doubt that it has everything to do with Harrenhal — she was apparently pursued by a lot of different men, so why would Ned stand out? I still think that she was a "safety" candidate because of physical similarities between the Daynes and the Targs, like the eyes.

One thing that sticks out to me is Martin's assertion that Ashara wasn't in King's Landing with Elia in the last year or so of Elia's life. At first glance, this would appear to matter in the sense that we don't REALLY know where she was, i.e. she could actually be Jon's mother. But in the context of Aegon, it means that she wouldn't have been with the baby Aegon for most of his life. Depending on when Elia actually had him and when Ashara left her service, she may never even have seen the child at all. Why does this matter?

She wouldn't have known a fake Aegon if she'd seen one. Varys could have contacted her, told her "Aegon" survived and handed her a Targ-looking baby, and she wouldn't have known him from the real one. I'm still about 95% sure that Young Griff is not the real Aegon, but if Ashara hadn't been around him when he was a baby, she wouldn't know the difference. She's really a perfect candidate for Varys: a Targ loyalist to the bone who wouldn't know a fake prince if she had one. Same as Connington, really. Two people who were close to each of Aegon's parents — who wouldn't believe them when they said he was real? And yet neither of them was really in a position to know for sure themselves that he was real.

[Ghost714]

We know threw Jon Connington's POV that he really believes young Griff/Aegon to be The son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Connington was very much hinted to be in love with Rhaegar. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't realize Aegon was a fake as he grew up. I mean even though he wasn't raised by Rhaegar he would still have Rhaegar's genes. So as he grew up I have to believe Connington would notice if he acted and looked nothing like Rhaegar Targaryen.

We at least know that they colored Aegons hair blue to cover up the Targaryen silver like hair. So he had to look pretty Targish. I think that at least rules out Aegon just being anybody.

I still have to believe though that Aegon must look very much like Rhaegar, and at least act like him a little as he got older. or Jon Connington would have known he was not legit. Like I said its pretty much confirmed that Connington had a stiffy for Rhaegar, I doubt he would have forgotten his looks and mannerisms. So how could he not notice something not being right with Aegon???

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We know threw Jon Connington's POV that he really believes young Griff/Aegon to be The son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Connington was very much hinted to be in love with Rhaegar. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't realize Aegon was a fake as he grew up. I mean even though he wasn't raised by Rhaegar he would still have Rhaegar's genes. So as he grew up I have to believe Connington would notice if he acted and looked nothing like Rhaegar Targaryen.

We at least know that they colored Aegons hair blue to cover up the Targaryen silver like hair. So he had to look pretty Targish. I think that at least rules out Aegon just being anybody.

I still have to believe though that Aegon must look very much like Rhaegar, and at least act like him a little as he got older. or Jon Connington would have known he was not legit. Like I said its pretty much confirmed that Connington had a stiffy for Rhaegar, I doubt he would have forgotten his looks and mannerisms. So how could he not notice something not being right with Aegon???

Connington didn't come into any contact with "Aegon" until the child was about five years old. So he wouldn't have been able to say that he didn't look like the prince had. A lot of it too is down to Connington wanting to believe that the child is the real Aegon. He thinks it gives his life purpose, and he wants to atone for failing to stop Robert's Rebellion when he had the chance. Don't underestimate the power of denial. Instead of thinking of Connington as someone who'd know a fake Aegon immediately, you'd do better to think of him as someone who has tricked himself into thinking and believing what he wants to.

A prevailing theory is that Young Griff is really a Blackfyre, in which case he would have all the Targ physical features you'd expect. Looking like a Targ doesn't mean much in that part of the world, given that female-line Blackfyres still exist and some a lot of people there have Valyrian coloring.

This is getting off the R+L=J topic, but ... yeah.

[corbon]

I still have to believe though that Aegon must look very much like Rhaegar, and at least act like him a little as he got older. or Jon Connington would have known he was not legit. Like I said its pretty much confirmed that Connington had a stiffy for Rhaegar, I doubt he would have forgotten his looks and mannerisms. So how could he not notice something not being right with Aegon???

Easily. The power of belief. He wants it to be true, as far as he knows it is, so he has no reason to question or look for little cues that it is not and can easily dismiss any dissimilarities either conciously or subconciously.

Connington is not a good reason to believe Aegon is truly Aegon.

[Jem]

We know threw Jon Connington's POV that he really believes young Griff/Aegon to be The son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Connington was very much hinted to be in love with Rhaegar. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't realize Aegon was a fake as he grew up. I mean even though he wasn't raised by Rhaegar he would still have Rhaegar's genes. So as he grew up I have to believe Connington would notice if he acted and looked nothing like Rhaegar Targaryen.

We at least know that they colored Aegons hair blue to cover up the Targaryen silver like hair. So he had to look pretty Targish. I think that at least rules out Aegon just being anybody.

I still have to believe though that Aegon must look very much like Rhaegar, and at least act like him a little as he got older. or Jon Connington would have known he was not legit. Like I said its pretty much confirmed that Connington had a stiffy for Rhaegar, I doubt he would have forgotten his looks and mannerisms. So how could he not notice something not being right with Aegon???

I think that Jon being in love with Rhaegar would actually make it less likely that he would see any differences between Rhaegar and Aegon. Jon has obviously got a lot of unresolved issues between himself and Rhaegar, regrets and shame at having let him down. I think Jon sees Aegon as his chance to do Rheagar proud, to redeem himself by proxy. Jon wants and needs Aegon to be real, so I think that he would dismiss or ignore (possibly subconciously) any differences in appearance or demeanor of Ageon compared to Rhaegar. Plus people don't have to be carbon copies of their parents. I know I don't look much like my parents, for example. And because Aegon was not bought up around his father, he won't have necessarily developed any similar mannerisms or speak patterns etc like Rhaegar.

[SFDanny]

Connington spends - what? - five years or so with the Golden Company, so he sees Aegon through the eyes of someone who want's to believe his old heartthrob's son is legit, not as someone who knew the child well and watched him grow up. There certainly must be at least a passing resemblance to Rhaegar, but it doesn't have to be so close that Lord Jon would have to know him for a fake. He is supposed to be Rhaegar's son, not his clone.

I tend to believe he is a fake because of the mummer's dragon prophecy, but I think the whole point is that it could be true. I keep pointing to Anastasia as the model. Watch the old Ingrid Bergman movie and decide if she is a fake or not and I think the idea is to leave the viewer, or in this case the reader, wondering what is the truth. Martin has gone to great lengths to make both options possible.

[Ghost714]

I know Aegon wouldn't be an exact replica of Rhaegar wether he is legit or not . But even if Rhaegar didn't raise him he would still have some traits of Rhaegar. My half sister never met her father but our mom always mentions stuff that she does that is exactly like he was.

I know that Jon Connington wasn't with Aegon untill he was like 5 But they were together for like a decade.

I totally get where you guys are coming from when you say that Jon Connington needs Aegon to be real to make up for his failure to Rhaegar etc. and I completely agree.

But some part of me believes that Jon Connington's rational brain would at least plant a seed of doubt no matter how much he wants/needs it to be true. What I mean is I believe Jon loved Rhaegar, and I think he would be super pissed off if someone was trying to pass off a bastardization of Rhaegar's son. So I think if any doubt at all was there that would be stronger than his want for it to be Aegon. Maybe that's just my thoughts I guess but you guys make a really good argument.

As far as the whole mummers dragon thing goes though, I'm not so sure that proves Aegon is a false dragon/Targaryen. Because we know he looks very Targaryen like wether he is Rhaegars kid or not. You can be a Targaryen without Rhaegar being your dad obviously.

The way I originally made heads or tales of the whole mummers dragon thing, was that Varys use to be a mummer and he is the one who "saved" Aegon. He was the one responsible for how he was groomed for leadership and everything. So in a way Aegon belongs to Varys aka he is "the mummers dragon."

That was my original take on everything anyway. But trust and believe...I know I could be totally and completely wrong lol.

[Rob the God]

hey don't know if this is the right section to ask

i just started Dance and somewhere in the beginning the

prophecy of "the prince who was promised" is mentioned again

the prophecy says that he will be born under a bleading star and salt and smoke

i'm sure you've already discused this in relation to Jon

So the bleading star is probably Dayne and his sword(made of a star) it could either just mean Dayne dying or his sword swept in blood

but i wonder about the salt and the smoke

there wasn't any fire we know of, but at the moment pretty much everything about the Tower of Joy is a mystery

[Alia of the knife]

I think her "suicide" could be for both Jon and "Aegon" — "Aegon" because the kid needed someone to raise him, and Jon because she would have known the truth about his parentage. Jon had a family to raise him; "Aegon" didn't. There's a reason why Ashara is a popular candidate for Jon's mother among the well-heeled (Cersei, for example), and I doubt that it has everything to do with Harrenhal — she was apparently pursued by a lot of different men, so why would Ned stand out? I still think that she was a "safety" candidate because of physical similarities between the Daynes and the Targs, like the eyes.

One thing that sticks out to me is Martin's assertion that Ashara wasn't in King's Landing with Elia in the last year or so of Elia's life. At first glance, this would appear to matter in the sense that we don't REALLY know where she was, i.e. she could actually be Jon's mother. But in the context of Aegon, it means that she wouldn't have been with the baby Aegon for most of his life. Depending on when Elia actually had him and when Ashara left her service, she may never even have seen the child at all. Why does this matter?

She wouldn't have known a fake Aegon if she'd seen one. Varys could have contacted her, told her "Aegon" survived and handed her a Targ-looking baby, and she wouldn't have known him from the real one. I'm still about 95% sure that Young Griff is not the real Aegon, but if Ashara hadn't been around him when he was a baby, she wouldn't know the difference. She's really a perfect candidate for Varys: a Targ loyalist to the bone who wouldn't know a fake prince if she had one. Same as Connington, really. Two people who were close to each of Aegon's parents — who wouldn't believe them when they said he was real? And yet neither of them was really in a position to know for sure themselves that he was real.

That-is-brilliant. :)