R+L=J v.17

[FanTasy]

Hmph ... the more I read about this annoying Tower of Joy the fuzzier it gets.

The story about Ashara throwing herself from a tower ... fishy and fishier.

I just reread the meeting of Jon and Ygritte in ACOK. She tells him the story of Bael. It struck me how similar this story is to what we are led to believe happened with Lyanna and/or Ashara.

Bael was a singer / musician who kidnapped a Stark girl. Lots of blue winter roses around in that story.

Sounds familiar: Lyanna was supposedly kidnapped by Rhaegar, who sang and played the harp. And who gave her blue roses.

The Stark daughter had a child by Bael, a king beyond the wall. She wasn't kidnapped at all, she was hiding for a year or so in the crypts at Winterfell.

The Stark daughter threw herself in grief off a tower, according to the tale of Bael. She left her child and that child, a son, saved the Stark bloodline, which would have become extinct.

So Jon is, when he is a son of a Stark, associated with blue roses of winter. From the tale by Bael and, if R+L=J, this association is renewed by that Lyanna is associated with this flower.

Very strange that this tale seems never to be told to Jon at Winterfell. I suspect Old Nan was instructed by Ned to not tell some tales. He instructed Harwin and the rest of the staff to never mention Ashara's name.

Anyhow, Jon stumbles over a spearwife on his first long trip beyond the wall. She knows all about the tale. And the tale is known also by members of the Night Watch, we learn.

If there was a cover story needed and found for Ashara and / or Lyanna, it wasn't very original :cool4:

[Buried Treasure]

I suspect that the tale of Bael the Bard hasn't been told at Winterfell for a long time. It tells how the Starks are descended from a bastard and a kinslayer, hardly the best bit of propoganda for any House.

[Ghost714]

I agree that's not a tale i would want to be told at Winterfell. But that's not to say Ned or Ashara didn't know it.

[Tree Warg]

Hello everyone. Brand new here.

To the poster on page one that put down the time line, I agree with your chronology. I think Ned does arrive at the ToJ 3-5 months after the sacking of KL. However, I think this prove my point on the R + L = J theory. I dont think Lyanna dies from childbirth complications. I believe she is mortally wounded by Ned. The stain on Neds honor is that he is a kinslayer.

[Tree Warg]

I mean if you think about it. You lose family, friends, tear the kingdom asunder. You just rescued your sister who was kidnapped, but, then you find out no, I really went of my own accord, I like it here and this is your nephew the true heir of Westeros. She may have even entered the fray on Daynes & Hightowers behalf. It was always said: The Shewolf had teeth.

[Dragonfish]

Hello everyone. Brand new here.

To the poster on page one that put down the time line, I agree with your chronology. I think Ned does arrive at the ToJ 3-5 months after the sacking of KL. However, I think this prove my point on the R + L = J theory. I dont think Lyanna dies from childbirth complications. I believe she is mortally wounded by Ned. The stain on Neds honor is that he is a kinslayer.

Assuming that you're referring to me with that "3-5 months" figure, you should know that that figure was based on my being stupid. I think it's entirely possible that Ned made it to the ToJ right as Lyanna was dying from complications due to childbirth. And as for your theory, I don't buy it. Ned loved his sister dearly, and she was, after Benjen, the only family he had left. I don't think it was in his character to kill her.

[Tree Warg]

So, you truly believe that while 9 guys are duking it out at the foot of the tower Lyanna is giving birth to Jon? Ned & Holland just happen to survive just in time to see her last dying breath? I think not. Jon was at least a couple months old when the skirmish occured. Also, if Jon was just born he would not have been able to travel for a while. Think about it......

[Dragonfish]

So, you truly believe that while 9 guys are duking it out at the foot of the tower Lyanna is giving birth to Jon? Ned & Holland just happen to survive just in time to see her last dying breath? I think not. Jon was at least a couple months old when the skirmish occured. Also, if Jon was just born he would not have been able to travel for a while. Think about it......

No, I think Jon was born before the fight, and Lyanna was lingering until Ned came upon her. That might seem contrived or coincidental to you, but it's no more contrived than Tyrion happening upon Catelyn in the same inn, or Tyrion happening upon Ser Jorah in the same brothel (man, Tyrion really needs to stay out of brothels and inns, he always ends up getting kidnapped in them).

[Tree Warg]

No, I think Jon was born before the fight, and Lyanna was lingering until Ned came upon her. That might seem contrived or coincidental to you, but it's no more contrived than Tyrion happening upon Catelyn in the same inn, or Tyrion happening upon Ser Jorah in the same brothel (man, Tyrion really needs to stay out of brothels and inns, he always ends up getting kidnapped in them).

I agree about Tyrion.

However, I think that Lyanna dying of birth complications is far too Disney. And, every time Ned recalls these events he reacts like someone suffering from shellshock. Whether it was deliberate or accidental Ned is a kinslayer in my opinion. I think a great lie is a half-truth. His stain on his honor is real, he just is not an adulterer.

Lyanna was a willing participant, Rhaegar is far more innocent than most believe.

Also, to suggest that the 3 KG are nonchalantly sharpening their blades waiting for Ned and his hommies, while Lyanna is fading is ludacris. They would have tried to flee with the prince not wait around for Ned or Robert. I think that shows that Lyanna was fine. If she was as good as dead and not a concern (as many believe) they would surely have split with the baby.

[Dragonfish]

However, I think that Lyanna dying of birth complications is far too Disney.

It's a device that George uses frequently, so I'd say it's too Martin.

And, every time Ned recalls these events he reacts like someone suffering from shellshock. Whether it was deliberate or accidental Ned is a kinslayer in my opinion. I think a great lie is a half-truth. His stain on his honor is real, he just is not an adulterer.

I don't understand what shellshock has to do with Ned killing his sister, nor do I understand what you mean when you say that Ned could have accidentally killed her.

Regardless, I don't see anything in Ned's memories that suggest he killed his sister. There's absolutely no evidence to support your argument, though neither is their anything that outright contradicts it (at least nothing I can find).

Lyanna was a willing participant, Rhaegar is far more innocent than most believe.

I agree.

Also, to suggest that the 3 KG are nonchalantly sharpening their blades waiting for Ned and his hommies, while Lyanna is fading is ludacris. They would have tried to flee with the prince not wait around for Ned or Robert. I think that shows that Lyanna was fine. If she was as good as dead and not a concern (as many believe) they would surely have split with the baby.

Why would the Kingsguard and Lyanna have stayed at the ToJ if she was fit to leave? Your theory doesn't explain why they were there any better than mine does. Indeed, I think it makes for more sense that the Kingsguard were staying until Lyanna either recovered or died. If you believe, as you seem to, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then that would make Lyanna a member of the royal family, and therefore someone deserving of Kingsguard protection. It would also make her someone Rhaegar cared about, and since the Kingsguard (especially Arthur Dayne) were very loyal to Rhaegar, it makes sense that they would stay with her out of simple decency. Alternatively, if you don't believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then the simplest explanation for why they were there is that they were following Rhaegar's last order. Any one of these theories would do better to explain why the Kingsugard were there than your theory, which seems to assume that Lyanna and her homies were just chillin' at the ToJ for shits and giggles.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

I agree about Tyrion.

However, I think that Lyanna dying of birth complications is far too Disney. And, every time Ned recalls these events he reacts like someone suffering from shellshock. Whether it was deliberate or accidental Ned is a kinslayer in my opinion. I think a great lie is a half-truth. His stain on his honor is real, he just is not an adulterer.

Lyanna was a willing participant, Rhaegar is far more innocent than most believe.

Also, to suggest that the 3 KG are nonchalantly sharpening their blades waiting for Ned and his hommies, while Lyanna is fading is ludacris. They would have tried to flee with the prince not wait around for Ned or Robert. I think that shows that Lyanna was fine. If she was as good as dead and not a concern (as many believe) they would surely have split with the baby.

Uh... What? Ned is a kinslayer? Where is this coming from?

[Tree Warg]

Uh... What? Ned is a kinslayer? Where is this coming from?

This is my "crackpot" theory. All Ned worshippers unite!

It's a device that George uses frequently, so I'd say it's too Martin.

Why would the Kingsguard and Lyanna have stayed at the ToJ if she was fit to leave? Your theory doesn't explain why they were there any better than mine does. Indeed, I think it makes for more sense that the Kingsguard were staying until Lyanna either recovered or died. If you believe, as you seem to, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then that would make Lyanna a member of the royal family, and therefore someone deserving of Kingsguard protection. It would also make her someone Rhaegar cared about, and since the Kingsguard were very loyal to Rhaegar (especially Arthur Dayne), it makes sense that they would stay with her out of simple decency. Alternatively, if you don't believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then the simplest explanation for why they were there is that they were following Rhaegar's last order. Any one of these theories would do better to explain why the Kingsugard were there than your theory, which seems to assume that Lyanna and her homies were just chillin' at the ToJ for shits and giggles.

The Martin analogy is appropriate. Cheers!

I am suggesting that, there was no urgency to leave because Lyanna and the baby were fine. No one was supposed to know where the tower was located.

I actually base my "kinslayer" theory on the vision Bran has of the girl defeating her brother in a duel as children. Lyanna was an accomplished warrior. She could handle a sword and she could tilt. The Shewolf had teeth. I believe she joined the skirmish. Nothin. I repeat nothing can truly support this. Other than to say that Lyanna was no "damsel in distress".

[Dragonfish]

I am suggesting that, there was no urgency to leave because Lyanna and the baby were fine. No one was supposed to know where the tower was located.

If there was no urgency to leave because no one knew where the ToJ was located, then what would have motivated the Kingsguard to leave if Lyanna was dying?

I actually base my "kinslayer" theory on the vision Bran has of the girl defeating her brother in a duel as children. Lyanna was an accomplished warrior. She could handle a sword and she could tilt. The Shewolf had teeth. I believe she joined the skirmish. Nothin. I repeat nothing can truly support this. Other than to say that Lyanna was no "damsel in distress".

It's doubtful she joined the skirmish. Ned recalls in AGOT that "they had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away." This implies that no one but the original ten participants were involved in the fight.

[keog]

This is my "crackpot" theory. All Ned worshippers unite!

The Martin analogy is appropriate. Cheers!

I am suggesting that, there was no urgency to leave because Lyanna and the baby were fine. No one was supposed to know where the tower was located.

I actually base my "kinslayer" theory on the vision Bran has of the girl defeating her brother in a duel as children. Lyanna was an accomplished warrior. She could handle a sword and she could tilt. The Shewolf had teeth. I believe she joined the skirmish. Nothin. I repeat nothing can truly support this. Other than to say that Lyanna was no "damsel in distress".

I wouldn't believe Ned as a character (or caraciture of honor) capable of killing his sister. He fights against his best friend and king to spare a young girl he has never met (Dany) but kills his own sister?

I would belive a grief-stricken Lyanna capable of suicide, though. i've said it in a previous post. Father dead because of her, brother as well, lover/capture/whatever--thousands of others because of her. Guilt stricken, but unable to leave her child - she is relieved to see Ned and give him the child so she can die and put herself out of misery. Maybe. I still like it better than Ned wacking his sister...accidentally or on purpose. I think HE would have gone to the Wall had that happened.

[Tree Warg]

Merely a theory. Actually, I have stayed out of the chats. But, I have been reading you for a while Dragonfish. We actually agree on a lot. This is just my twist on the whole thing. The way most followers see it as Lyanna dying Ned making a promise. To cut and dry for me.

Would you care to speculate on Neds reaction when he is informed or realized he and Robert's war was based on a misunderstanding. That Lyanna truly didnt want anything to do with Robert (allegedly). I mean does anyone know why eveyone had to die? I mean if Ned is just retreiving his sister what are they killing each other?

[Ghost714]

Ned remembers "Lyanna in her bed of blood" GoT page #424.

All the time threw out the books child birth is associated with blood and pain. I think Ned's memory of his sisters bed of blood suggests child birth, without a doubt. If it was an act of violence it most likely would have been like, "Ned remembering Lyanna in a pool of blood" not a bed of blood. I don't think Ned killed Lyanna not for one second. I believe the whole "stain" on his "honor" was about him lieng to Cat there whole relationship. My opinion is that Ned lied to keep Jon safe, and to keep his promise to Lyanna.

I really can not fathom Ned killing Lyanna and then her being like... Im dieng Ned because you killed me, oh by the way promise to take care of my son. Hypothetically speaking if Ned killed Lyanna out of anger for all the grief caused by her and Rhaegar, she isn't going to be all cool with making him promise to take her son. Keep in mind Jon would be the result of Lyanna and Rhaegar's actions. If Ned is mad enough to kill his sister for the trouble she caused than he would be mad enough to kill her baby too.

There is just no logic behind your view that Ned's a kinslayer.

For all the reasons I have stated and all the reasons people stated before me.

[Tree Warg]

I wouldn't believe Ned as a character (or caraciture of honor) capable of killing his sister. He fights against his best friend and king to spare a young girl he has never met (Dany) but kills his own sister?

I would belive a grief-stricken Lyanna capable of suicide, though. i've said it in a previous post. Father dead because of her, brother as well, lover/capture/whatever--thousands of others because of her. Guilt stricken, but unable to leave her child - she is relieved to see Ned and give him the child so she can die and put herself out of misery. Maybe. I still like it better than Ned wacking his sister...accidentally or on purpose. I think HE would have gone to the Wall had that happened.

I have considered a Lyanna suicide but where I am coming from is she was well. If she was well. Then why didnt tell the KG that there was no imminent danger with her brother. Unless, she wanted nothing to do with Robert, Roberts kingdom & felt her son was the true king.

Again just a theory. Lets have fun. By my estimation we only have 7-10 years before we find out if I am wrong anyways?????

[keog]

I agree that all theories are acceptable until GRRM says otherwise.

Just breaking it down logically...

KG protect the King.

Regardless of who the seven (there's that number again) are, against the 3 (and that number too) KG-the KG probably know about the deaths of Aerys, Elia, Aegon (probably), Rhaenys, AND RHAEGAR.

If they are sworn to protect the King, and they think they are by fighting the seven that want to take him and his mother away, because they feel certain that even if Ned is honorable enough to uphold his end, Robert/Lannisters are NOT-fight they will.

And so R+L=J, J is heir, and if the gloves don't fit -you must acquit.

[Tree Warg]

Ned remembers "Lyanna in her bed of blood" GoT page #424.

All the time threw out the books child birth is associated with blood and pain. I think Ned's memory of his sisters bed of blood suggests child birth, without a doubt. If it was an act of violence it most likely would have been like, "Ned remembering Lyanna in a pool of blood" not a bed of blood. I don't think Ned killed Lyanna not for one second. I believe the whole "stain" on his "honor" was about him lieng to Cat there whole relationship. My opinion is that Ned lied to keep Jon safe, and to keep his promise to Lyanna.

I really can not fathom Ned killing Lyanna and then her being like... Im dieng Ned because you killed me, oh by the way promise to take care of my son. Hypothetically speaking if Ned killed Lyanna out of anger for all the grief caused by her and Rhaegar, she isn't going to be all cool with making him promise to take her son. Keep in mind Jon would be the result of Lyanna and Rhaegar's actions. If Ned is mad enough to kill his sister for the trouble she caused than he would be mad enough to kill her baby too.

There is just no logic behind your view that Ned's a kinslayer.

For all the reasons I have stated and all the reasons people stated before me.

I know what the book says. She cannnot lie down after being mortally wounded and grip her crown of roses???

So, days after the baby is born no one changed the sheets? She was a princess (alledgedly) or a high lord's daughter & we cannot change the linen? Really?

I would think making your brother promise to take care of her son makes perfect sense. If there was no conflict, why the desperate plea?

Look, I am not trying to offend Ned supporters. I am chasing Martin. If you read it piece by piece (the clues he gives us), why was there combat? Ned swore to protect the heir anyways? What are they fighting about? So, it has to be more than: "Ned, I am dying. Please keep little Jon safe". "You betcha, Lyanna! Will do."

[Dragonfish]

I would think making your brother promise to take care of her son makes perfect sense. If there was no conflict, why the desperate plea?

Because Lyanna knows how honorable Ned is, and knows that he would feel duty bound to turn the child over to Robert, or at least tell him about his existence. That's also probably why the Kingsguard wouldn't let Ned pass. Yes, Ned did eventually relent and promise to take care of the child (assuming R+L=J), but that promise still causes him a great deal of guilt, because it requires him to lie to the people he loves and commit treason against his king.