R+L=J v.17

[Serie]

So, days after the baby is born no one changed the sheets? She was a princess (alledgedly) or a high lord's daughter & we cannot change the linen? Really?

now that really shocked me....

(edit: meaning that you're right here, this is unusual....)

[Tree Warg]

Because Lyanna knows how honorable Ned is, and knows that he would feel duty bound to turn the child over to Robert, or at least tell him about his existence. That's also probably why the Kingsguard wouldn't let Ned pass. Yes, Ned did eventually relent and promise to take care of the child (assuming R+L=J), but that promise still causes him a great deal of guilt, because it requires him to lie to the people he loves and commit treason against his king.

Your reasoning is sound. But, Ned fought the war on the premise that Lyanna was a hostage. If she isn't a hostage (which you and I agree she wasn't) then there is no reason to spill blood. Unless, there is another variable that is not so obvious.

Ned would not turn over Lyanna's child, ESPECIALLY if she wasnt a hostage.

Again, I really feel a lot of this opposition comes from love for Ned. I like Ned but he is very 1 dimensional. Having something like this to hide makes him tragic and more round as a character. Martin loves that crap. Look at what he is doing with Jaime Lannister. Jaime will kill Cersie. Jaime will be slain by Tyrion. All misunderstandings.

[Jem]

I know what the book says. She cannnot lie down after being mortally wounded and grip her crown of roses???

So, days after the baby is born no one changed the sheets? She was a princess (alledgedly) or a high lord's daughter & we cannot change the linen? Really?

If she was dying from a complication of childbirth and had been dying for some time it is likely that she was haemorrhaging and constantly passing blood and clots and mucous and other fluids. It would be pretty had to keep her sheets constantly clean. And it is likely she had roses in her room to try to mask the odour of blood and infection.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Lyanna didn't participate in the fight. She was dying of childbirth complications, probably an infection or internal bleeding of some kind. Jon would've been born sometime before the fight (even if only a few days, which would fit the mortality window of most post-delivery infections), not during it. And certainly Ned didn't kill her, that's just absolutely ridiculous.

As for the issue of clean sheets, this is the middle of nowhere in a feudal society, not Sacred Heat's maternity ward, mmkay? She was lucky she even had sheets on the bed at all. Highborn and peasant women alike died during childbirth, and none of them had conditions that'd we ever call "hygienic." If she had heavy bleeding, changing the linen (if they even had spare linen) would've been like swimming up the river current.

[Dragonfish]

Your reasoning is sound. But, Ned fought the war on the premise that Lyanna was a hostage. If she isn't a hostage (which you and I agree she wasn't) then there is no reason to spill blood. Unless, there is another variable that is not so obvious.

Ned would not turn over Lyanna's child, ESPECIALLY if she wasnt a hostage.

The Kingsguard don't necessarily know what kind of person Ned is. All they know is that Ned is one of Robert's top generals, and that Robert is in some way responsible for the deaths of Rhaegar's other children. This makes Ned guilty of the children's deaths by association, and the Kingsguard would therefore never let him near Lyanna's child. Even letting Ned know about the child's existence would be too big a risk.

Besides, the fact that Lyanna had to plead with Ned in order to get him to promise to take care of Jon belies your claim that Ned would not have turned the child over. After all, why would Lyanna plead if she knew he wouldn't harm Jon?

Again, I really feel a lot of this opposition comes from love for Ned. I like Ned but he is very 1 dimensional. Having something like this to hide makes him tragic and more round as a character. Martin loves that crap. Look at what he is doing with Jaime Lannister. Jaime will kill Cersie. Jaime will be slain by Tyrion. All misunderstandings.

I think the fact that Ned is lying to the people he loves and committing treason against his king makes him a pretty tragic and rounded character.

[Tree Warg]

If she was dying from a complication of childbirth and had been dying for some time it is likely that she was haemorrhaging and constantly passing blood and clots and mucous and other fluids. It would be pretty had to keep her sheets constantly clean. And it is likely she had roses in her room to try to mask the odour of blood and infection.

Since you wanna go all medical, then here is your receipt: Jon would have been born weeks before the skirmish (as discussed earlier), even if it was days women do not survive days or weeks after a birthing, too much blood loss! It is the closest a woman can get to death without dying. Your body is taxed to the limit. You're not hanging on for days or weeks. If there are complications. Could you hang on for hours? Maybe?

The Roses were a symbol of their love. Red center, blue pedals. He kept giving them to her. Again and again. He loved her deeply.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Since you wanna go all medical, then here is your receipt: Jon would have been born weeks before the skirmish (as discussed earlier), even if it was days women do not survive days or weeks after a birthing, too much blood loss! It is the closest a woman can get to death without dying. Your body is taxed to the limit. You're not hanging on for days or weeks. If there are complications. Could you hang on for hours? Maybe?

The Roses were a symbol of their love. Red center, blue pedals. He kept giving them to her. Again and again. He loved her deeply.

I believe that Jon was probably born days, not weeks, before the fight. Plenty of time for something like puerperal fever (which can last something like 10 days) to kill her. It wouldn't have to be immediate, not at all.

[Tree Warg]

Lyanna didn't participate in the fight. She was dying of childbirth complications, probably an infection or internal bleeding of some kind. Jon would've been born sometime before the fight (even if only a few days, which would fit the mortality window of most post-delivery infections), not during it. And certainly Ned didn't kill her, that's just absolutely ridiculous.

As for the issue of clean sheets, this is the middle of nowhere in a feudal society, not Sacred Heat's maternity ward, mmkay? She was lucky she even had sheets on the bed at all. Highborn and peasant women alike died during childbirth, and none of them had conditions that'd we ever call "hygienic." If she had heavy bleeding, changing the linen (if they even had spare linen) would've been like swimming up the river current.

Again, a 3 day old baby cannot travel. He is older than that. Probably 3 months old, I would assume. How else is Ned going to move the baby. Plus, he has time to dismantle the tower, with a day or two old baby??? C'mon people???

[Jem]

Since you wanna go all medical, then here is your receipt: Jon would have been born weeks before the skirmish (as discussed earlier), even if it was days women do not survive days or weeks after a birthing, too much blood loss! It is the closest a woman can get to death without dying. Your body is taxed to the limit. You're not hanging on for days or weeks. If there are complications. Could you hang on for hours? Maybe?

The Roses were a symbol of their love. Red center, blue pedals. He kept giving them to her. Again and again. He loved her deeply.

It is theorised that she died of puerperal fever which means she could have lingered for up to 10 days or so after birth.

Remember that Ned recalls that Lyanna was fevered when he found her, not just bleeding. That implies that she has been sick for some time, it is not just an immediate hurt.

[Ghost714]

I know what the book says. She cannnot lie down after being mortally wounded and grip her crown of roses???

So, days after the baby is born no one changed the sheets? She was a princess (alledgedly) or a high lord's daughter & we cannot change the linen? Really?

I would think making your brother promise to take care of her son makes perfect sense. If there was no conflict, why the desperate plea?

Look, I am not trying to offend Ned supporters. I am chasing Martin. If you read it piece by piece (the clues he gives us), why was there combat? Ned swore to protect the heir anyways? What are they fighting about? So, it has to be more than: "Ned, I am dying. Please keep little Jon safe". "You betcha, Lyanna! Will do."

What do you mean days later no one changes the sheets? Who said Jon was born days before Ned got there? It could have been hours before Ned got there that Jon was born, and if at this time Lyanna is dieng then I doubt the KG would be like...I know your dieng and all but stop bitching and get up so I can clean those sheets, because your a highborn lady and damnit they need to be cleaned right now.....not likely.

You ask why must there be fighting?

When Ned gets to the TOJ he says to the KG I thought to had seen you at the trident, at kingslanding, at the seige of Stormsend...all this suggests he doesn't know why these 3 KG are here. So At first he is probably thinking that the KG are keeping his sister hostage but he doesn't know why they were here and not at the places he thought to had seen them. So he is thinking he has to fight them because they are keeping his sister hostage. Even though the KG knows they are protecting Lyanna not keeping her hostage, they are still being confronted by the man who is half responsible for the rebellion winning. Roberts and Ned's army beat Rhaegar's. Ned's best friend killed Rhaegar. I mean it makes complete sense why they would still fight each other. The KG were obviously very loyal to Rhaegar, especially Arthur Dayne his best friend. I can see them wanting to fight Ned and his rebel buddies because they don't believe in surrender so what else is there to do but fight . Especially if the KG believed Jon (the heir) to be in danger if Ned got his hands on him. Ned was half the rebellion the Kg have no reason to believe Ned would accept Jon. Not to mention the KG probably wanted to go out with a sword in their hand fighting for their king.

So why wouldn't they fight each other is my question?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Again, a 3 day old baby cannot travel. He is older than that. Probably 3 months old, I would assume. How else is Ned going to move the baby. Plus, he has time to dismantle the tower, with a day or two old baby??? C'mon people???

There would've been a wet nurse and/or midwife there for Lyanna, probably Wylla. We also don't know how long Ned and company may have stayed at the Tower before they were able to move with Jon.

[Dragonfish]

Again, a 3 day old baby cannot travel.

Tell that to Gilly's baby.

[Tree Warg]

It is theorised that she died of puerperal fever which means she could have lingered for up to 10 days or so after birth.

Remember that Ned recalls that Lyanna was fevered when he found her, not just bleeding. That implies that she has been sick for some time, it is not just an immediate hurt.

Great point. No one is going to like this either.... The Crannogs fight with blow-darts. Was there a Crannog at the skirmish?

Lyanna sees Ned and the boys lay waste to the KG. Lyanna resolves herself to defend the king. Lyanna gets the upper hand on Ned, Holland hits Lyanna with a dart in desperation.

Again. I am only speculating for fun.

[Tree Warg]

Tell that to Gilly's baby.

I think that those babies were at least a month old before being moved?

[keog]

There would've been a wet nurse and/or midwife there for Lyanna, probably Wylla. We also don't know how long Ned and company may have stayed at the Tower before they were able to move with Jon.

...and most hospitals release babies from 24-48 hours after birth. Some midwife birthing centers as short as 6-8 hrs after birth. Not ideal if there was a problem birth, but, this is a book, not a medical text.

[Dragonfish]

I think that those babies were at least a month old before being moved?

I'm referring to when Gilly's baby was born in Craster's keep, during the mutinee against Jeor Mormont. The child was barely a few hours old before Craster's wives sent Sam off along with Gilly and her child, into the frigid, cold North. If a newborn baby could survive that, I think Jon could have survived travelling to the nearest holdfast or castle.

[Tree Warg]

I think that those babies were at least a month old before being moved?

That is was a terrible misunderstanding. Good point, Dragonfish. But, I am calling crapolah on that baby survivng that journey.

[keog]

That is was a terrible misunderstanding. Good point, Dragonfish. But, I am calling crapolah on that baby survivng that journey.

Why? Do you think the baby would have an issue with travel? No one's chasing them at this point, so they don't need to hurry. They have a nursemaid to take care of the baby. They also needed time to bury a number of bodies. They probably would not have started the journey for --let's say a week. Child could be maybe 10 days old? I wouldn't carry a baby at a full gallop on a horse at that age, but as far as a nurse maid carrying them on foot or a wagon for a 1 week journey to the next destination, it isn't a problem. Like the Dr told me, they are not made of crystal, more like playdough.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why? Do you think the baby would have an issue with travel? No one's chasing them at this point, so they don't need to hurry. They have a nursemaid to take care of the baby. They also needed time to bury a number of bodies. They probably would not have started the journey for --let's say a week. Child could be maybe 10 days old? I wouldn't carry a baby at a full gallop on a horse at that age, but as far as a nurse maid carrying them on foot or a wagon for a 1 week journey to the next destination, it isn't a problem. Like the Dr told me, they are not made of crystal, more like playdough.

Agreed. I also love the Play D'oh analogy. :P

If the men had a wet nurse (i.e. some way to feed Jon) and paced themselves on the way to Starfall in fairly temperate weather (i.e. not a frozen wasteland or a scorching desert), I see no reason why a baby couldn't be taken along safely. Lyanna was the one in mortal peril; Jon was probably perfectly healthy. Hell, look at how many nomadic American Indian tribes there were. They would've carried newborns everywhere.

[kg1982]

The bloody bed was a metaphor... Martin was hinting at what happened to Lyanna without saying.. she died in childbirth. I'm sure that there was a wetnurse/ midwife (cough.. Wylla.. cough) tending to her.