R+L=J v.17

[Dragonfish]

Well, as I said I think "about" means "a little more". The reason is IMO simple.

Could you specify what you consider to be the beginning and end of the war? I would easier to agree/disagree with you if this were made clearer.

[Whatever]

Could you specify what you consider to be the beginning and end of the war? I would easier to agree/disagree with you if this were made clearer.

the beginning is when ned calls the banners, the end is the sack of KL

EDIT: sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I tought it was kinda generally assumed.. at least, I've always seen these 2 events considerend as beginning/ending of the war this on every board I found

[Dragonfish]

the beginning is when ned calls the banners, the end is the sack of KL

EDIT: sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I tought it was kinda generally assumed.. at least, I've always seen these 2 events considerend as beginning/ending of the war this on every board I found

Well, then I can't say I agree. Ned states that the war raged for "close to" a year until the Sack, so that means the war lasted less than a year up to that point. That said, it is reasonable to argue that the war raged for 14 months up to the lifting of the Siege of Storm's End. SFDanny's post on the previous page lays out the rationale for this in greater detail.

Also, I've always been under the impression that the war is generally considered to have begun when Jon Arryn raised his banners. That was, after all, the first open act of rebellion, and it was also when hostilities first began.

[keog]

_{Yeah, SFDanny. I read the Global Timeline, and it does have some disparities (ie Gared reaches north of Winterfell to be beheaded by Ned in 20 days-from north of the Wall-and presumably not through the gate).}

_{Also, the intriguing -albeit probably coincidental- Christmas at the Twins. Cat arrives there in the first year, Red Wedding one year later. What's gonna happen at the Twins THIS Christmas?}

_{My point was just Westeros is HUGE. I heard it described once as the shape of England and the size of South America. That being the case, and barring any magical influences, people need to be in some proximity to have interactions. I'm sure it will come out as a rememberance of some character how they saw a girl of Lyanna's description riding/being chased with/by a blond guy 17 years ago, etc. Until then, my supposition is that Lyanna was in or near the Stormlands, got bored/cold feet, went out for a ride (she likes horses) and met up with R. He remembers her from Harrenhal, she is stand offish at first but succumbs to his bluer than blue eyes and lurvely singing voice. Slam, bam - TPTWP is conceived (or at least another head of the dragon) and all hell breaks loose.}

_{If we go with the idea that Lyanna dies due to complications of child birth, then her grasping a wreath of blue roses on her death bed is awfully suggestive that the father was Rhaegar. And, if the timeline is accurate, and any news of the world reaches the TOJ, then why would the 3 remaining KG's still be at the TOJ, let alone fight Ned et al. It's alluded that Barristan is the epitomy of a KG, and he signs up with Robert after KL falls - why wouldn't the 3 KG's at the TOJ? Another argument for R+L is the timeline of pregnancy. Lyanna would have gotten pregnant from 3-5 months into the war. Seems odd her sleeping with Rhaegar at that point after her father and brother were murdered by R's father. It could be interpreted as rape, except for the wreath of roses image on her death bed.}

_{Now, R+L=J, maybe (and I do see the logic of it), but I suppose it's also possible Edric Dayne is older than he seems, etc. I don't think that's the case, since GRRM said no more new character POV.}

_{So. I guess it's a stretch - but I am going with R+L=J. J being ressurected as AA/whatever, and completing his ressurection by plunging a sword into Mel! The reborn, and now unkillable J will fight the others, rallying a ragtag group of NW remnants and wildlings to do the job with him. Others breach the wall, J gets sent on a "mission" against the Great Other by Brandon. Meanwhile, after the entire south goes to hell, it gets its shit together for a showdown with the invading Others at the Trident finally using DRAGONS! While the Others are on the retreat, John finally completes his mission and destroys whatever power animates the Others and in doing so, is himself destroyed. ...and so we have our bittersweet ending GRRM promised. John a hero, but dead. Brandon stuck in a tree for the next hundred years, but watching over his family.}

_{Rickon, the new Stark of Winterfell. And a whole lot of mop-up in the South. Financed, and controlled by Illyrio M of course.}

_{Or maybe this is all a load of crap. But it's gonna be a while before we can really find out, so it's my first best guess.}

[Michael Jon Snow]

Lyanna and Rhaegar met at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Some suspect that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Ayres sent Rhaegar to arrest the KotLT and they fell in love. That was why he crowned her the Queen of the Tourney.

[alienarea]

What I fail to understand: Why doesn't anyone suspect that Jon isn't Ned's son?

IIRC, Ned didn't have a reputation of sleeping around, and he was fighting in the rebellion while "fathering" Jon. Even if he had an affair during the war, it would most likely not have happened in the same place where the war ended, and he would have been moving around. How is he supposed to know about Jon unless some woman would have shown up/had told him? In that case, someone around him would have noticed.

Taking the above into account it is in my opinion highly unlikely that Jon is Ned's son. Since Jon has the looks of a Stark, he must be either the son of Lyanna or Brandon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What I fail to understand: Why doesn't anyone suspect that Jon isn't Ned's son?

IIRC, Ned didn't have a reputation of sleeping around, and he was fighting in the rebellion while "fathering" Jon. Even if he had an affair during the war, it would most likely not have happened in the same place where the war ended, and he would have been moving around. How is he supposed to know about Jon unless some woman would have shown up/had told him? In that case, someone around him would have noticed.

Taking the above into account it is in my opinion highly unlikely that Jon is Ned's son. Since Jon has the looks of a Stark, he must be either the son of Lyanna or Brandon.

It's easier to believe that Ned, who thought he might die and barely knew his wife, would stray, than it is for people to believe that he'd claim a bastard that he hadn't fathered, knowing what it would do to his family. In Westeros, if Ned says something, you just tend to believe it, because that's the kind of guy he is.

[Revan Baratheon]

Hmm

[Revan Baratheon]

So jon snow and dany are born of rape? Weird...

[Dragonfish]

So jon snow and dany are born of rape? Weird...

Well, some certainly believe that Jon Snow was born of rape, but there are those like myself who believe Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna was consensual.

[FanTasy]

It's easier to believe that Ned, who thought he might die and barely knew his wife, would stray, than it is for people to believe that he'd claim a bastard that he hadn't fathered, knowing what it would do to his family. In Westeros, if Ned says something, you just tend to believe it, because that's the kind of guy he is.

Huh? Ned straying? There is something with the timeline, that has always bugged me.

Correct me please if my thoughts are straying somewhere too ... or I get the timeline messed up.

Let's start at the beginning of this messy business.

Jon Arryn was told by Aerys Targaryen to deliver the heads of his two wards: Ned and Robert. Jon refused.

There were marriage deals made between Tully-Stark-Baratheon: Catelyn-Brandon, Robert-Lyanna - and Lysa-Jon Arryn.

Was this an alliance the Targaryens liked? If not, was this why Jon was asked to deliver the heads of Ned and Robert when they were still wards at the Eyrie?

Lyanna was kidnapped by / eloped with Rhaegar Targaryen.

This supposedly was for love and/or for breeding the third head of a dragon birthline to obtain the prince that was promised.

But what Rhaegar did could also be very convenient in breaking up a possibly unwanted alliance between the Baratheons and the Starks.

But let's proceed.

Brandon went hotheaded to Kings Landing, to Aerys, complaining about the kidnap of his sister. Aerys orderd Rickard to come to court and both Starks were promptly killed by Aerys' orders, for reasons of treason.

Robert was rebelling, facing and slaying Rhaegar.

Ned was on his way to Kings Landing with an army but Tywin Lannister joined the rebellion and sacked Kings Landing.

Aerys was killed by Jaime Lannister, Rhaegars wife and children by Lannister men.

There was a Lannister-Baratheon alliance made, in stead of a Stark-Baratheon.

One of the reasons Ned didn't like the Lannisters?

After the sack of Kings Landing Ned must have been in the South, at the Tower of Joy. We know that because of his dream in AGOT.

Ned slew Arthur Dayne, buried him near the Tower of Joy and brought his sword to Daynes sister at Starfall.

Edric Dayne's tells Arya (in ASOS, two books after Ned's dreams about the Tower of Joy) that Ned was not married to Catelyn when he went to Starfall to return the sword to Ashara Dayne.

Something doesn't fit here if Edric Daynes tale is true. (Edit: It isn't , I misread. See the post of Dragonfish. And the timeline in one of the first posts in this thread.)

Because it is true Ned and Catelyn and Jon and Lysa married after Ned returned from the Tower of Joy..

After the marriage Catelyn went to Riverrun, pregnant with Robb.

Ned went away for some unfinished warring while Robert was in Kings Landing.

When Catelyn had given birth to Robb she returned to Winterfell, Ned and little Jon were already there when she arrived

So when and where did Ned find Lyanna at her bed of blood and pick up Jon?

If Edric Daynes tale is true it can't have been at the Tower of Joy (Edit: unless Jon is much older than Robb and was kept in hiding for some time.)

Of course Edric could be befuddled or willingly tell a lie to Arya.

[Dragonfish]

FanTasy--

SFDanny posted a fairly comprehensive and very accurate timeline on the first page, if you're interested in learning more about it.

As for your timeline, there are a few things that are off about it:

1) Lyanna's "kidnapping" happened first, followed by Brandon and Rickard's deaths. It was these events that sparked the war, and led to Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's heads.

2) The betrothal between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully was not arranged until the war was already underway. In fact, if Catelyn is to be believed, it was not arranged until after the Battle of the Bells, which was at least a few months into the war.

3) Ned and Catelyn were married during the war (sometime around the Battle of the Bells, most likely). I think you've misread Edric Dayne's claims, as I don't recall him saying anything about Ned and Cat not being married when he went to Starfall. I think he was actually talking about when Ned and Ashara were at Harrenhal.

The Trident and the Sack happened about a year into the war, so probably over a year after Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna. These events (the Trident and the Sack) were then followed by the lifting of the Siege of Storm's End, and it was sometime after that that Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. So in truth, there really isn't any issue with the timeline, as far as R+L=J is concerned. If the theory is true, then Jon was most likely found at the Tower of Joy.

[FanTasy]

FanTasy--

SFDanny posted a fairly comprehensive and very accurate timeline on the first page, if you're interested in learning more about it.

As for your timeline, there are a few things that are off about it:

1) Lyanna's "kidnapping" happened first, followed by Brandon and Rickard's deaths. It was these events that sparked the war, and led to Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's heads.

2) The betrothal between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully was not arranged until the war was already underway. In fact, if Catelyn is to be believed, it was not arranged until after the Battle of the Bells, which was at least a few months into the war.

3) Ned and Catelyn were married during the war (sometime around the Battle of the Bells, most likely). I think you've misread Edric Dayne's claims, as I don't recall him saying anything about Ned and Cat not being married when he went to Starfall. I think he was actually talking about when Ned and Ashara were at Harrenhal.

The Trident and the Sack happened about a year into the war, so probably over a year after Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna. These events (the Trident and the Sack) were then followed by the lifting of the Siege of Storm's End, and it was sometime after that that Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. So in truth, there really isn't any issue with the timeline, as far as R+L=J is concerned. If the theory is true, then Jon was most likely found at the Tower of Joy.

Thanks, I'm going to look into this timeline - and again at what that annoying Edric Dayne had to say.

[FanTasy]

As for your timeline, there are a few things that are off about it:

I think you've misread Edric Dayne's claims, as I don't recall him saying anything about Ned and Cat not being married when he went to Starfall. I think he was actually talking about when Ned and Ashara were at Harrenhal.

You're right! Edric was a bit vague about it, but then Harwin tells that he heard stories about Ned and Ashara at Winterfell. He doubts that there is any truth to it, but what he heard was that Ned met the Dornish lady when Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn. He says there was no stain on Ned's honor. "There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot. (...) Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? (...) neither one of them was pledged."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Huh? Ned straying? There is something with the timeline, that has always bugged me.

I'm not saying that Ned is an obvious candidate for straying. I'm saying that, even though he's "Ned," it would still be easier for people in Westeros to believe that he'd stray than it would be to believe he'd claim a bastard that wasn't his. And that's why when Ned said, "Jon's mine," no one (publicly, anyway) seemed to doubt him. If anything, it's a morality fable, i.e. "If Ned Stark could stray, anyone could."

[FanTasy]

I'm not saying that Ned is an obvious candidate for straying. I'm saying that, even though he's "Ned," it would still be easier for people in Westeros to believe that he'd stray than it would be to believe he'd claim a bastard that wasn't his. And that's why when Ned said, "Jon's mine," no one (publicly, anyway) seemed to doubt him. If anything, it's a morality fable, i.e. "If Ned Stark could stray, anyone could."

You're right :)

[alienarea]

But if Ned wasn't married when he returned Dawn to the Dayne's this implies that Jon is more than nine months older than Robb assuming Ned didn't sleep with Catelyn before they got married. Would that work? If not Jon cannot be R+L.

[FanTasy]

But if Ned wasn't married when he returned Dawn to the Dayne's this implies that Jon is more than nine months older than Robb assuming Ned didn't sleep with Catelyn before they got married. Would that work? If not Jon cannot be R+L.

Yep, But I misread what was said by Edric Dayne and Harwin about where Ned and Ashara met. So my assumption was false. It makes sense that Ned would bring Ashara the sword of her brother if he had some earlier feelings for her though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yep, But I misread what was said by Edric Dayne and Harwin about where Ned and Ashara met. So my assumption was false. It makes sense that Ned would bring Ashara the sword of her brother if he had some earlier feelings for her though.

That, and it also fits in with the esteem in which Ned (and everyone else except Darkstar, apparently) held Arthur Dayne. Bringing the family's ancestral sword back to Starfall was a way to make a peace offering (similar to how Tyrion wanted Ice sent to Robb) and show respect for Arthur. It also doubles as a nice cover story for why Ned would have gone there at all (they were probably also returning Wylla to the castle, working to get their cover stories straight about Jon's parentage and using Starfall as an exit port back to the north).

[FanTasy]

That, and it also fits in with the esteem in which Ned (and everyone else except Darkstar, apparently) held Arthur Dayne. Bringing the family's ancestral sword back to Starfall was a way to make a peace offering (similar to how Tyrion wanted Ice sent to Robb) and show respect for Arthur. It also doubles as a nice cover story for why Ned would have gone there at all (they were probably also returning Wylla to the castle, working to get their cover stories straight about Jon's parentage and using Starfall as an exit port back to the north).

It sounds plausible. What bugs me though is what the Daynes would gain if they supported the deception. Just honoring the friendship between two dead men, Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar? That seems a bit thin.