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areusch

Cersei and Jamie are Targaryens

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I just finished reading A Dance With Dragons and don't know if this question has been brought up before but how many people think that Cersei and Jamie are not Tywin's children but instead are Aery's? In a conversation between Danny and Sir Barristan, Barristan tells the story of Tywin's wedding night and what might have happened between Aery's and Joanna but he stops before he says too much. Other things that make me think this are how Targaryens wed brother and sister which goes along with Jamie and Cersei's relationship, how they had three children together which seems to be a reoccurring number with the Targaryens and how in the past it mentioned that Tyrion is more like his father than the twins. If this was true it could make for some interesting plot points. It would be a good reveal if Cersei or Jamie were put to death by fire and they survived because of them being a Targaryen or if Jamie came into a battle riding a dragon.

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It would be a good reveal if Cersei or Jamie were put to death by fire and they survived because of them being a Targaryen or if Jamie came into a battle riding a dragon.

Targs aren't immune to fire. Dany was the exception, and only when the dragons hatched.

I don't really think they're Targs though. I don't like that secret Targs are popping up every where.

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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Please, no lannisters as targs. Make Arya a targ, Varys a targ, Vargo Hoat a targ, idc. But if the Lannisters end up being targs it would just ruin so much of the story.

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The Jamie/Cersei Targ theory has always fascinated me. I don't think it's true, but there seems to be evidence that supports Cersei being a Targ (and Jamie by default). She definitely is a Mad Queen, much like her hypothetical step father. She has a fascination with fire, as we see when she burns down the tower of the hand. And also all the aforementioned stuff. Barristan's anecdote about Aerys and Joanna, and the sibling incest paralleling the Targaryens.

Tyrion is the popular Targ theory, but that really ruins his relationship with Tywin. He is, after all, his father's son, regardless of whether or not either of them would want to admit it. If it turns out they're not related, that's just kinda lame. :/

That said, I don't think either of them are Targs. But it would be pretty surprising if Jamie/Cersei ended up being Targlings.

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I think there's a distinct possibility that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' children, but I don't think it's going to matter much in the grander scheme of things.I can't see Jaime and Cersei flying dragons, no matter how brave and reckless they are. I can't really see how else their Targaryen blood would play out, either. This is especially true for Cersei, who identifies as a Lannister to such an extent that I can't see her embracing her Targaryen roots, no matter what the circumstances. Jaime? Perhaps, though I think it unlikely. Cersei? No. No way.

It is of course entirely possible that Ser Barristan's and Aunt Genna's words are red herrings.

I don't like that secret Targs are popping up every where.

Nor do I. However, if you subscribe to the theory that Aegon isn't really Aegon, that's one secret Targaryen less. And while I firmly believe that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, that hasn't been proven yet, so there aren't that many secret Targaryens in the story at this point.

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Nor do I. However, if you subscribe to the theory that Aegon isn't really Aegon, that's one secret Targaryen less. And while I firmly believe that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, that hasn't been proven yet, so there aren't that many secret Targaryens in the story at this point.

I meant more in terms of theories : there's R+L=J, Tyrion as Aerys' son, Jaime and Cersei as Aerys' children, Varys as a secret Blackfyre etc.

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I'm not sure how the plot benefits by revealing Cersei and Jaime as Targaryen bastards. For one thing, there's no really reliable evidence for this idea. It would create some interesting parallels, but it doesn't fundamentally change the way that the characters relate to each other. Tywin is dead, and Jaime's daddy issues with him lose a lot of their meaning if it turns out that the twins are not Tywin's children.

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I just finished reading A Dance With Dragons and don't know if this question has been brought up before but how many people think that Cersei and Jamie are not Tywin's children but instead are Aery's? In a conversation between Danny and Sir Barristan, Barristan tells the story of Tywin's wedding night and what might have happened between Aery's and Joanna but he stops before he says too much. Other things that make me think this are how Targaryens wed brother and sister which goes along with Jamie and Cersei's relationship, how they had three children together which seems to be a reoccurring number with the Targaryens and how in the past it mentioned that Tyrion is more like his father than the twins. If this was true it could make for some interesting plot points. It would be a good reveal if Cersei or Jamie were put to death by fire and they survived because of them being a Targaryen or if Jamie came into a battle riding a dragon.

unfortunately both Tywin amd Aerys had the sane color of hair ;)

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I meant more in terms of theories : there's R+L=J, Tyrion as Aerys' son, Jaime and Cersei as Aerys' children, Varys as a secret Blackfyre etc.

Goodness, Varys, too? I hadn't come across that theory yet. Must read up on that.

I absolutely refuse to believe that Tyrion is Aerys' son. No, just no. It's much more gratifying to have Cersei and Jaime proven not to be Lannisters, although I agree with Sevumar that it doesn't seem to serve the plot in any way, except to teach Cersei a much-needed lesson in humility. Because really, being paraded naked in front of your own subjects isn't nearly humbling enough.

Jaime's daddy issues with him lose a lot of their meaning if it turns out that the twins are not Tywin's children.

Of couse, there is plenty of potential for other Daddy issues. If Aerys is Jaime's father, Jaime killed his father, just like Tyrion killed his. If that isn't something the two brothers could bond over, I don't know what is. And I do think Jaime and Tyrion are destined to become much closer than they have been so far.

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I can see that there is a case for arguing that Cersei and/or Jaime and/or Tyrion could be a Targaryen, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

If it turns out that one or more of the Lannister siblings really are Targs, I don't think it would be totally out of the blue and you would be able to see how GRRM had set it up, but I would be pretty disappointed if that happened. I like the dysfunctional Lannister family relationships between the siblings and between Tywin and each of his kids. That would be severely diminished if it turns out that they aren't fully related.

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Aegon the fourth was promiscuous enough that every fifth child in Westeros is probably a Seekrit Targ.

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I just finished reading A Dance With Dragons and don't know if this question has been brought up before but how many people think that Cersei and Jamie are not Tywin's children but instead are Aery's?

I do! Besides everything you mentioned, don't forget the vision Jaime has of Joanna that could be interpreted as him and Cersei not being Tywin's (biological) children.

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

"I am a knight," he told her. "and Cersei is a queen."

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

This is especially true for Cersei, who identifies as a Lannister to such an extent that I can't see her embracing her Targaryen roots, no matter what the circumstances. Jaime? Perhaps, though I think it unlikely. Cersei? No. No way.
I actually think the opposite. Cersei is the one who tells Jaime "we are NOT Targaryens!" when he asks her to marry him, but she's also the one who drew herself on the back of a dragon with Rhaegar*. I think the reveal would mess with both of their heads, but with Cersei it would be more because she would realize that she's a bastard. She could accept coming from the line of dragon kings if not for that, especially because it wouldn't make her any less a Lannister. Jaime on the other hand would be horrified because of Aerys. He didn't crown Aegon because he had Aerys' blood running through his veins (and maybe he could have saved Elia and her children if he went to get them to crown Aegon!), but then thanks to him Joff, Aerys' grandchild (who's probably more like him than Aegon would have been because there's an extra level of inbreeding with Joff, while Aegon had Dornish blood), becomes king and Cersei becomes a queen regent, who may end up doing exactly what Aerys wanted, burning the KL down with wildfire. Jaime would completely freak out.

Of couse, there is plenty of potential for other Daddy issues.

Yeah, and Tywin wouldn't really stop being the twins' father if the theory is true, he raised them. So you don't take away Tywin daddy issues, you just pile Aerys ones on top of them.

*Fun fact: this is obviously a coincidence, but if the theory is true, Cersei has only ever been attracted to people with Targ/Valyrian blood: Jaime, Rhaegar, Robert on their wedding night and Aurane Waters.

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Shhhhhhh! You're ruining the surprise for yourself when 14 years from now we'll all find out the truth in the last chapter of the series.

I love your optimism ;)

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While there's certainly evidence to suggest this is possible, I just don't see what makes it relevant. Maybe Jaime feels weird about having killed his father, maybe Cersei feels...what? She can't even feel guilty about being attracted to Rhaegar since she's been boning her brother for three quarters of her life anyway. It's a fun theory, actually, but it just doesn't make sense from a narrative standpoint, to me at least.

Of mild interest, incidentally, is that Jaime is humorously referred to as "kinslayer" during a mummer's performance at one point, and the general similarities between the titles king- and kin- slayer. A theory full of sound and fury, methinks, but signifying nothing.

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My reaction to this theory is aptly represented here.

There can only be one hidden Targaryen before it starts getting cheesy and that's Jon Snow because there have been a lot of hints in the text. And YG isn't Aegon.

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I don't really believe this theory (I think Tywin's kids are Tywin's), but I love it nonetheless. It baffles me why people think Tyrion's the Targ when the circumstantial evidence far and away favors the twins. :D

The Jamie/Cersei Targ theory has always fascinated me. I don't think it's true, but there seems to be evidence that supports Cersei being a Targ (and Jamie by default).

Not necessarily. Male and female twins are always fraternal, meaning you have two eggs. It's possible for two eggs to be fertilized by two different men and still develop concurrently. Really really rare, but possible. I obviously don't think this is the case (else they probably wouldn't look so identical), but it's in the realm of reality for each twin to have a different father.

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Woah. I never even considered that, and it does make sense in a twisted George R.R. Martin sort of way. He better start writing the last two books in this series. I need answers, darn it! Ha ha.

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If any of he Lannister children turn out to be Aerys' children I will put down the book and never finish reading.

But no, Jaime and Cersei are not Targaryens. The point of Barristan's story was twofold. First, it showed why Tywin disliked Aerys. Secondly, it shed more light on Tywin's character, he never forgets a slight.

The twins are Lannisters through and through. They got a double dose of the golden hair, the green eyes and the Lannister beauty. Plus, by all accounts Tywin and Joanna really loved each other. I don't think she would have cheated on Tywin and if Aerys raped her I don't think she would have hidden it from him. Actually, knowing Tywin he wouldn't have let Joanna get into a position for Aerys to do that. And if it did happen, Tywin wouldn't have just sat around. He would have done something about it. Tywin Lannister doesn't take slights on his Lannister honor lightly.

Furthermore, although not quite as bad as if Tyrion is a Targ, the twins as Targs ruins so much of their narrative arc. So much of their characters come from being Lannisters, specifically being Tywin's children, and them trying to live up to those expectations. If they aren't Lannisters, each of their arcs were pointless. It would ruin the books.

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