Cersei and Jamie are Targaryens

[Gurkhal]

Secret Targs:

Jon

Aegon

That's ENOUGH!! No more!

I agree, and just two is one to many for me. Or two to many.

[Know Face Man]

Why cant Jaime be Tywins son and Cersei be a Targaryen. It is possible if Tywin and the Mad King both had sex with Joanna within a certain time.

[Sam Huxley]

I do believe that Jaime and Cersei could be Targaryens; first of all there's the story that Barristan Selmy told Dany, and also when reading her chapters she actually makes me hate her because she is obviously insane and when she burns the tower of the hand with the wildfire, it describes her as being enthralled by the flames, something that also occurred with the Mad King. Jaime seems not to have caught the insanity that some Targaryens have got over the generations. Plus there is also the fact that Tywin's own sister tells Jaime that he is not like his father.

The fact that Tywin may hate Tryion so much is because he is his father's son, but Tywin hates him because first of all he 'murdered' his wife in child birth and because a great lord like Tywin couldn't birth a healthy child on his wife whereas the Mad King took liberties and birthed twins with Tywin's wife.

I hope it's true and the Volonquar that murder's Cersei is Jaime because she really has caught the insanity that travels down through the Targaryen family.

[Buried Treasure]

I've seen people taking Aerys' 'liberties' with Joanna as cast iron proof that he raped her, but the full quote indicates a lot less.

Prince Aerys.... as a youth he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the.. liberties your father took during the bedding.

The 'liberties' aren't the story - they are an afterthought to the story of Aerys saying he wanted to have Joanna, if rape had occurred Barristan would have recalled it before remembering the drunken jape. Tywin is also implied to have been aware of the 'liberties' - yet according to Barristan is was Aerys words that Tywin took offense at - if Aerys had openly raped Joanna the words would have been forgotten in the insult over his actions. Nor does it seem likely Tywin would have continued serving as Hand for the next 10+ years (including organising Aerys' rescue from Duskendale) if his wife had been raped. Nor is it even certain that Joanna conceived on her wedding night, it happened for Catelyn but it is not always the case and I've never seen any timeline that indicates when Joanna married and hence how long it was before the twins birth.

Clayton Suggs enjoys watching people burn. Is he a Targaryen too? A mania for setting things alight defines a pyromaniac, not a Targaryen.

[telegraph]

Interesting. When I was reading the first books it suddently came to me: Can Jon Snow be a son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark? I thought over it and decided that yes, it makes a lot of sense. I asked Google if anyone thinks it is so and found a lot of threads about it.

Now I have just read the Barristan Selmy remark about Aerys fascion and it occured to me that Cercei and Jaime are likely to be natural children of Aerys.

My point is: people see it. I have seen these things on my own, and I see that topic starter and some commenters saw that as well. If people are decyphering it in such way - it was most likely written that way.

Some people are complaining about too many Targs out there, but I will say - it is natural. Every hundredth person in Eurasia is a descendant of Ginghis Khan after all and Targaryens were in power somewhat longer then mongols.

Targaryen blood flows for sure in Baratheons and Martells, so what? How much should one be a Targaryen to be a Targaryen for sure? Does it even matter any more?

I do not see how Seven Kingdoms can be re-united any time soon:

Cercei's "careful planning" made it sure that Reach will soon break off.

Dorne is about to be consumed in an Aegon rebellion.

Storms End is still not captured.

Riverlands are prone to a popular revolt.

North is hard to reach without a fleet, and manpower, and Iron Throne have neither.

Petyr Baelish can proclaim himself a King of the Vale and get away with it, for Vale should be conuqired either from the air (dragons) or from the sea (ships). None of which is available to the Iron Throne.

Iron Islands are already in open rebellion and are not likely to be pacified easily.

All in all - Seven Kingdoms can soon become seven kingdoms. Danaerys' dragons are unruly and untrained. Danaerys herself is too soft and childish to survive Mereen, and I would bet she will die crusified before the book I am reading is over. Maybe first thing in the next book, if GRRM will (as always) finish the book unfinished...

So to summarize:

Yes, I belive that Cercei and Jeime are Targaryen bastards (would that make them Waters?). I believe that it is pretty cool story twist. I think that it is no longer relevan, given the situation in Westeros.

[telegraph]

Oh, one more thing.

"liberties" might be a ruse for actual lords right. For example, Aegon could have decided to "inspect" Joanna's parts himself, Ghiscari-style. This would be a "liberty", that enraged Tywin. However only some KG members(Selmy) and close friends of Joanna(Genna) would know what Aegon actually poked Joanna with.

[Duckfield]

I don't undrstand why so many people rule out the chance that C and J don't have Targ blood. It seems very logical to me because of their characteristics and looks.

They are both beautiful

They are both arrogant

They are attracted to each other

Cersei is a "mad queen" like some Targs were (like Aerys, Aerion, Maegor the Cruel etc...)

Jaime is fearless and hot tempered and protects the innocent (Yes, pushing Bran is a contradiction but it's the only one I could think of)

there are also very strong hints from Genna and Barristan

It seems too logical to me that they are part Targaryen. Also, it doesnt have to be from Aerys... Tywin could have been part Targaryen himself since he is nothing like his father Tytos who's wife was unfaithful to him (that was also mentioned somewhere)

That could explain why Tyrion has so much Targaryen qualities as well...

I'm sorry but I'm just positive that there is some Targ in C, J and T

btw unrelated question: is house lannister andal or FM??

[louzeyre]

The Lannisters are both Andal and First Men. They are descended from Lann the clever (who as a legend from the Time of Heroes would be part of the first men) along the female line and Andal adventures along the male line. In other words, the Andals came, conquered the westerlands then married the daughter of existing ruling family and kept the family name, much like they did over most of Westeros (except the North, where they didn't conquer and the Vale where they just conquered and the ruling family is almost entirely Andal now)

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I don't really believe this theory (I think Tywin's kids are Tywin's), but I love it nonetheless. It baffles me why people think Tyrion's the Targ when the circumstantial evidence far and away favors the twins. :D

Yeah, but the "literary structure" evidence points to Tyrion, as a POV from the begning and all.

I've always had a personal crackpot theory of Jon (son of Aerys, not Rhaegar), Tyrion and Dany as the heads of the dragon. Aerys mad jelousy would have made him rape Lyanna and Joanna, since he was paranoid about both Rhaegar and Tywin. And there you have your dragon riders. I don't really believe it, but it would be cool.

[Buried Treasure]

I don't undrstand why so many people rule out the chance that C and J don't have Targ blood. It seems very logical to me because of their characteristics and looks.

They are both beautiful

They are both arrogant

They are attracted to each other

Neither of the first two are traits exclusive to Targaryens and the third isn't even necessarily true of all Targaryens. Some of the Targs did fall for each other, but they primarily married each other because that is their way of conducting marriage alliances.

Even if I favoured the idea that any of Joanna's children were Targaryens I would still argue against this line of reasoning. It's not logical, arguing beautiful people must be Targs because all Targs are beautiful is like arguing that all birds are black because ravens are black, which my limited understanding of logical reasoning leads me to understand is one of the first things arguments to get disproven.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Tyrion found himself oddly touched. “Most of my kin are bastards,” he said with a wry smile, “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” He pulled a glove off with his teeth and clasped Snow by the hand, flesh against flesh.

Someone else presented this book quote in another thread and it donned on me that this line could be seen as foreshadowing that Jaime and Cersei are the bastard children of Aerys Targaryen.

Also the 'I've always had a soft spot in my heart for cripples, bastards and broken things' line could be seen as foreshadowing it as well. Jaime is crippled, he is certainly broken and so how awesome would it be if he were a bastard as well, I ask you? :D

[tze]

Someone else presented this book quote in another thread and it donned on me that this line could be seen as foreshadowing that Jaime and Cersei are the bastard children of Aerys Targaryen.

Good catch.

Jaime and Cersei being Aerys's bastard children isn't as set in stone as, say, R+L=J, but there are a bunch of subtle clues that could easily point that way. In addition to Tyrion's "most of my kin are bastards" quote and Cersei's obsession with fire, we are also repeatedly told that a Lannister always pays his (or her) debts---but then in AFFC, Cersei very publicly stops paying her debts (to the Iron Bank, to the Faith, etc.). That could be a literary hint from GRRM that Cersei isn't (100%) Lannister. Cersei destroys the Tower of the Hand: when the Targs ruled, the punishment for striking any Targ was the loss of a hand, and Cersei is "avenging" Joffrey's murder by cutting off a hand (the Tower of the Hand). Not to mention, look at Cersei's thoughts while watching the Tower of the Hand burn:

Cersei thought of all the King’s Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought.

Cersei thinks about the Hands of the King, and delights in symbolically burning them---and we know Aerys Targaryen was, of course, known for literally burning his Hands. Maggy the Frog's prophecy says that Cersei will lose "all that [she] hold dear", and it's clear that one of the things Cersei holds most dear is being the daughter of Tywin Lannister. The "Ty" prefix being given to Tyrion but not Jaime (and none of Cersei's kids have it either) could be a hint from GRRM, (taken along with everything else). While keeping vigil over Tywin's corpse, Jaime thinks,

His father had been a lion, that no one could deny, but even Lord Tywin never claimed to be a god.

Given GRRM's propensity for ironic wordplay, this could be a hint that Jaime's father hadn't been "a lion"---and the Targs basically did claim to be gods (Cersei herself thinks about Rhaegar having "the blood of dragons and gods"). The first time we ever see Jaime, he's wearing "crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak"---red and black, the colors of House Targaryen.

Like I said, it's obviously not set in stone, but there's definitely way more literary evidence that the twins aren't really Tywin's kids than there is for Tyrion not being Tywin's kid. If GRRM does go this route, he's certainly planted the seeds for it.

[Sworn Shield]

Both Cersei and Jaime have dreams that could be interpreted as being prophetic. In the Dunk and Egg stories those that have dragon's blood can sometimes have the ability to have dreams that come true.

[The Red Hand]

Both Cersei and Jaime have dreams that could be interpreted as being prophetic. In the Dunk and Egg stories those that have dragon's blood can sometimes have the ability to have dreams that come true.

So does Theon, does that make him a targ bastard too? I like to respect all non-crackpot theories but I just can't get behind this one. Just because of a comment about coins from Barristan and Cercei's pyromania you all assume that theyre targs? I don't like this theory because you guys seem to want to believe it, not actually believe it. And Tyrion being a secret Targ just makes alot more sense.

[tinyskeeveuk]

I'm on the side of Cersei and Jamie being Targs. I don't see Tyion as a Targ at all. Tyrion is a true Lannister in my eyes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Both Cersei and Jaime have dreams that could be interpreted as being prophetic. In the Dunk and Egg stories those that have dragon's blood can sometimes have the ability to have dreams that come true.

Interesting catch. Jaime's dream, like Theon's below, seems to be the result of weirwood interaction, though, from sleeping on the stump. Doesn't explain Cersei's dreams, though, namely when she's on the Iron Throne and it starts attacking her.

Also want to point out that Tyrion has no prophetic dreams, ever.

So does Theon, does that make him a targ bastard too? I like to respect all non-crackpot theories but I just can't get behind this one. Just because of a comment about coins from Barristan and Cercei's pyromania you all assume that theyre targs? I don't like this theory because you guys seem to want to believe it, not actually believe it. And Tyrion being a secret Targ just makes alot more sense.

I think the twins make far more sense than Tyrion. Tyrion to me makes no sense, and is the epitome of people wanting to believe something ("Now Tyrion can ride a dragon!!!"). And as I say, I think Tywin's kids are all his. But I think the twins theory has much more literary heft behind it, so when playing devil's advocate, that's the one I argue for.

[Budj]

Jaime's dream happened on a weirwood stump - I attribute that connection to the symbolic dream.

[Faint]

Like I said, it's obviously not set in stone, but there's definitely way more literary evidence that the twins aren't really Tywin's kids than there is for Tyrion not being Tywin's kid. If GRRM does go this route, he's certainly planted the seeds for it.

I've always been in agreement with this view but I want to bring up the assumption that they are, in fact, Targaryens. Why would the author do this? What role will it play in the story? When and how will it be revealed?

That's when my doubts set in. Is it just something that he wants the readers to pick up on as a neat little fact within the story or is it something that will actually have something of an impact on events?

Again, this is going off the assumption that Cersei and Jaime are actually Targaryens.

[Quiet Isle]

How on earth can they be from the same egg when they're different genders.

Also in aFFC Cersei comments on how alike Loras and Margarey are and the fact that they look more like twins than her and Jaime do, meaning that her and Jaime aren't actually alike.

Because eggs carry only xx (female genes) sperm carry xy (both). if the egg splits off into two early, and two different spermatazoa (obviously) invade the egg, you can have one female, and one male twin that are more alike than if there were two separate eggs.

Here's an interesting article on it: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1603799,00.html

[Sworn Shield]

Jaime's dream that involved his mother was quite odd as well, it was Jaime's first time dreamt he only has one hand. IIRC Joanna says in that all Tywin wished was for his son to be a knight and his daughter to be queen, when Jaime replies that has come true she sheds a tear. Now this could be interpreted that twins aren't Tywin's children.

While I think it is a possibility that the twins are secret Targs, all the evidence for it is circumstantial making it for now impossible to tell for now.

Edited for dyslexia.