Small Questions XIII

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

Eh ... she is burning people alive.

Yeah when she burned florent--the one who was stanniss hand before davos-- alive on dragonstone and threw the septon and some others into the dungeons that was very f-d up... but when davos frees edric storm and begs stannis to sail for the wall shes the one who prevails on stannis to do it-- if she had wanted she couldve talked stannis into burning him for treason. and she doesnt even seem to be all about burning kings anymore; she burned rattleshirt (who was a real piece of sh*t and deserved what he got) instead of mance, and then she bound mance to jon via the ruby on his wrist, and sent him off to free "arya," which she didnt have to do at all; all to gain jon's trust to try to save him from the danger she knows he is facing from his own men.

I'm just saying she seems a lot different from the crazy evil sorceress we met on dragonstone who burns alive anyone who doesnt accept her god and who gives birth to shadows to kill people.

Nobody else thinks her priorities changed somewhat from ACOK to ADWD, and for the better, both in how she's portrayed by martin and in her actions??

[mummer]

Are we even 100% sure that Joffrey ordered to kill Bran? Is it possible that it's false deduction and there's something more to it?

Well if by "100% sure" you mean did we see it happen or did Joffrey confess, then no we're not sure. But Joffrey had means and motive, and had a suspicious reaction to the subject - see here.

[FanTasy]

Are we even 100% sure that Joffrey ordered to kill Bran? Is it possible that it's false deduction and there's something more to it?

No 100% here! Joff is the most likely, if neither Cersei or Jaime did it. I'm not ruling out Cersei completely, though.

Besides these three I can't see who had a motive for killing Bran.

[The Shadowbinder]

I agree that Mel isn't evil or all bad, shes a complex character. Yes she burns people, but for religious sacrifice not because she's a sadist.

Not all the characters are "100% right in their actions," I'm pretty sure Ramses knows that murder, rape, and killing children is wrong but he doesnt cate and chooses to do it anyways since he's a psychopath.

Lol I love that part when Tryion suggests he get a dragon bone / Valyrian steel dagger for Joff... It almost sounds like Tryion is making a veiled suggestion to cut Jofferys throat, ironic considering later events.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

Are we even 100% sure that Joffrey ordered to kill Bran? Is it possible that it's false deduction and there's something more to it?

The evidence seems pretty convincing -- at least from tyrions pov-- when he mentions giving joffrey a dagger of valyrian steel with a dragonbone hilt for his nameday joff's reaction seems to verify what tyrion already suspected.

maybe there is more to it but it doesnt seem likely.

at least for now, with the info we have, it seems to be settled. but given martin's track record of adding little twists and subplots though, who knows?

[LuisDantas]

I can see Littlefinger talking Joffrey into doing it. It is just so much like him. He knows how to do it, it would suit his apparent goal of causing conflict and unrest, and it fits his style of directing other people without actually ordering them.

[FanTasy]

I'm just saying she seems a lot different from the crazy evil sorceress we met on dragonstone who burns alive anyone who doesnt accept her god and who gives birth to shadows to kill people.

Nobody else thinks her priorities changed somewhat from ACOK to ADWD, and for the better, both in how she's portrayed by martin and in her actions??

Well, I certainly hope Melisandre has mellowed considerably.

Her burning Rattleshirt was not to punish him for his wrongs. He died under false accusations (and needlessly, no kings blood there), to convert the wildlings.

And to get Mance in a position where he would enable her to give Jon a present: his sister. So Jon would feel obligated to do what Melisandre wants from him.

Or course it is possible that her proposal to Jon in ADWD to make a new shadowbaby is just to cuddle that thing she planned to give birth to.

[LuisDantas]

How can people have any doubt about Melisandre's character?

If she is a bit less flame-happy now, she has on the other hand shown an increased willingness to misdirect and use false pretense.

For someone who literally claims to be heralding the fight of the One True Good God against His Absolutely Evil Enemy, that is not really forgivable.

[mummer]

I'm not a mod of course, but further argument over the Bran murder attempt probably doesn't belong in this thread. The "small question" part has already been answered, and more elaborate conspiracy theories have been discussed elsewhere such as here.

[mummer]

One more question, with ADWD spoilers. When Doran mentions to Arianne and the Sand Snakes Balon Swann's plan, is he right? I don't recall Cersei ever devising that plan in AFFC, though she does mention sending Swann to Dorne with a plan that her thoughts leave mostly ambiguous. I think Doran is right and Cersei came up with this plan, but considering how many POV chapters she had in AFFC it seems odd that she never thought about it more, though I'm sure Martin could have just wanted it to come as more of a surprise in ADWD.

Indeed, we've only heard of this alleged plot from Doran. We did see Cersei tell Balon to bring Myrcella back, but if she also set up this ambush plan, we didn't see it.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

I can see Littlefinger talking Joffrey into doing it. It is just so much like him. He knows how to do it, it would suit his apparent goal of causing conflict and unrest, and it fits his style of directing other people without actually ordering them.

Littlefinger was nowhere near them when this whole misguided plot was hatched. they were all on the kingsroad traveling back to KL from winterfell, littlefinger was in KL, he wouldve had no way to influence joff's actions.

Like he said himself, he operates best in the midst of chaos. when cat came to him with the dagger he said it was tyrion's to throw a wrench in the works and to fan the flames btween the starks andthe lannisters. robert's party received the news of brans fall while traveling, and the attempt on brans life also happened before they got back to KL. when could LF possibly have had a chance to even talk to joff before they returned-- much less manipulate him into hiring an assassin?

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

Well, I certainly hope Melisandre has mellowed considerably.

Her burning Rattleshirt was not to punish him for his wrongs. He died under false accusations (and needlessly, no kings blood there), to convert the wildlings.

And to get Mance in a position where he would enable her to give Jon a present: his sister. So Jon would feel obligated to do what Melisandre wants from him.

Or course it is possible that her proposal to Jon in ADWD to make a new shadowbaby is just to cuddle that thing she planned to give birth to.

Good point.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

I love the actress they cast to play mel in season 2 of GoT-- perfect look

[Kaitie]

In the Mystery Knight why does Bloodraven call Egg cousin. Isnt he Eggs greatuncle? Also why does BR still go by the name of Rivers? He was ligitimized, right, so cant he go by Targaryen instead of Rivers?

[gam.bit]

If Varys and Illyrio already knew about Aegon, why would they pursue a secret pact to marry Viserys to Arriane when Aegon had the better claim to the Iron Throne? When Doran made the pact, I bet it was to make Arriane Queen so wouldn't they have known that revealing Aegon later on would piss off Dorne.

Aegon just seems so sudden and doen't quite fit in with the flow of the book, at least for me. Maybe he's fake?

[Jem]

If Varys and Illyrio already knew about Aegon, why would they pursue a secret pact to marry Viserys to Arriane when Aegon had the better claim to the Iron Throne? When Doran made the pact, I bet it was to make Arriane Queen so wouldn't they have known that revealing Aegon later on would piss off Dorne.

Aegon just seems so sudden and doen't quite fit in with the flow of the book, at least for me. Maybe he's fake?

That pact was between Doran and Willem Darry. Illyrio and Varys knew nothing about it and were not involved with it.

[Lord Tywin's Privy]

I think it was earliest brought up by someone else that there is some skeptism involving the truth (or falsehood) of argon's-- LG's-- birth.

Illyrio seems to care a lot more about him than if LG was simply his charge-- a lost targ prince put under his protection. in fact Illyrio seems to think of him more as a son, and also describes his dead wife in a way that is almost identical to the targaereans in feature and looks--- pale hair and violet eyes. ..

ive heard it suggested that little griff might indeed be magister illyrios son, not argon targaryen.

I don't personally subscribe to this theory but I do think that grrm has given us too little info about LG's past and parentage for us to believe without question that he is in fact aegon.

it seems that Martin is playing this one close to the chest and giving it just enough mystery to keep everyone guessing.

after all Illyrio dies seem to have much more personal investment in YG than is warranted. his motives for wanting the targs back on the iron throne still haven't been explained. add this to the descriptions we have of his former wife, + the fact that Jon connington would likely believe anyone who looks like rhaegar might be his son (guilt plus hope) and there you have it: enough reasonable doubt to believe that young griff might not actually be aegon targaryen.

I hope he is though :)

[Evamitchelle]

In the Mystery Knight why does Bloodraven call Egg cousin. Isnt he Eggs greatuncle? Also why does BR still go by the name of Rivers? He was ligitimized, right, so cant he go by Targaryen instead of Rivers?

It's easier than calling him "my great-great half-nephew" (Egg being the grandson of Bloodraven's half-brother). None of the Great Bastards took the Targaryen name either IIRC : Daemon Blackfyre, Bitersteel and Shiera Seastar.

[DragonSpawn]

What happens when you slay your Kin or break guestright? I understand that the old gods take a dim view on this but what exactly happens??? I remember something about rats but can't remember the stories... or where they are in the books... as at the moment... The Freys have broken guestright? (would the other houses be included in this - or just the Freys? ... as it was at the Twins e.g. Was Roose being really sly by organising the Red Wedding with Tywin knowing it would be the Freys getting the shit - not him??).

Theon keeps being called a Kinslayer... i can only assume because he fathered the Millars sons that he killed (still a bit of a grey area for me)...

Tyrion technically killed his Father... but if A + J = T then i guess it's just ironic that he killed Jamies father and Jamie killed his... but no Kinslaying involved...

Stannis Baratheon - this is a bit tricky and i can't work out whether it is actually kinslaying or not - but Stannis dreamed about it and his Stannis-shaped shadow killed Renly... so will the old gods turn him into a peach when they are done with him?!

Once you take your vows in the NW - does it count as Kinslaying to kill a fellow 'brother'? or is it blood only...?

and most importantly.... when the hell do the old gods take their revenge? Does it only apply if you follow the old gods? (Stannis was concerned and he doesnt follow the old gods, yet). I'm trying to understand why the hell Gregor is still kicking about if he killed his sister and father? If the old gods had any say in it surely he would have been turned into a chiuawahah buy now?

[WhiteWolf26]

I think they call Theon kinslayer because he "killed" Bran and Rickon. Not actually his kin but they were raised up as brothers, especially with Robb.