Heresy 2

[Eyron]

About the Children being the Others and the creators of the White Walkers, I can't buy into the idea that the Children gave the 100 obsidian to the Watch and at the same time they are the Others receiving sacrifices to create the White Walkers. To me it makes no sense at all, because there is no reason for White Walkers to be created except for times of war, and when that comes, you don't want anyone armed with the only thing that can kill your host, be it friends or not. Friends can be turned or defeated by enemies, who then suddenly come into possession of these weapons.

It was undoubtedly a ceremony or ritual (perhaps one that commemorated their alliance). The fact that it ended (either gradually or quickly) would indicate that the alliance ended, either do to obsolescence or change of policy.

Maybe the dragonglass was left behind at the Nightfort when they moved. Bran & Co never checked all those lower tunnels. If you haven't reen any White Walkers in several thousand years, moving all that dragonglass might seem like a major waste of time.

Wildfire would seem to be useful at the wall. Perhaps the Alchemists don't want it to leave their control. We know next to nothing about the Alchemists- their history or politics.

Wildfire... It's very dangerous to keep. I have a sneaking suspicion that wildfyre have had an impact on history that we have not realised yet, that Aerys and Cercei was not the first to hoard it. I'm thinking about Hardhome, where the flames went so high they could be seen from Eastwatch. It makes sense if the people of hardhome thought wildfire would be useful when the Others returned, but it seems strange for a society beyond the Wall to have that type of knowledge, so maybe I'm grasping here.

However, I would guess that the Children would not approve of wildfire since it is so destructive, leaving nothing alive including weirwoods.

The gift of dragonglass seem to have survived the Andals joining the Watch at least, since there were written records of the event.

Bran still has one or a few obsidian arrowsheads does he not? Those should appear at some point.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

What we know from Craster's example is that there is human-Other interaction and that it's not a brand new concept since we also have been told that the Night's King did this. We also know that Craster and his wives and daughters were spared more trouble from the Others because of it, so there must be a benefit for both parties in this interaction. We know that the other free folk shun him, and that some of the free folk feel some kind of loyalty towards Starks (Rowan and Mance particularily). To me this suggests that the present Stark line is not the ones that practices such sacrifices, and that the Night's Kings actions was an exception, or a turning point in Stark history, a division perhaps.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

The Starks seem to have an affinity for ice/cold, which might imply that the Starks and the Others were linked in the past somehow. They might have common origins. That doesn't mean they have always worked together. The legend of Brandon the Builder would seem to be the logical place for a break to have occured.

The bones and the iron in the crypts also have significance, and it's been suggested by many characters (and their dreams) in the story that there are ghosts in the tombs bound by the ironswords. This will come into play at some point, in one way or the other. Maybe the bones in the crypts are just holding some important information, but whatever that is - it will be important. Whatever it is it will set the Starks apart from other northmen, since they are the only ones having this special burial traditions.

I'll give an example of rank speculation/WAG/possible crackpottery-- the Winterfell Crypts are the magical "generator" that powers the Wall. To destroy the Wall, you simply have to remove all those iron swords that bind the dead Starks to their tombs, because they are the ones maintaining the Wall.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

There's a line in one of the first chapters in AGOT where Ned tells Catelyn that he had news from Benjen. Mance Rayder is becoming more powerful and the Wall loses more and more people on rangings.

Ned says he expects that soon he will have to march beyond the Wall and set things straight.

I forgot about this passage. It makes clear that the Lord of Winterfell supposes he has not only jurisdiction beyond the Wall but that he has the duty to set things straight.

It is an odd passage, because Ned talks of something you would expect the Lord Commander to do.

So back to the definition issue. Maybe the Commander of the Nights Watch was identical with the acting King of the North or the Lord of Winterfell. And at some time they decided to give the Watch a Lord Commander of their own.

The duty to help the Night's Watch when they can't handle the situation might belong to Ned because he is Warden of the North. The Wardens seem to be lieutenants of the Iron Throne responsible for defense from external threats. When the Ironmen get frisky, the Wardens of the North and West tend to take care of it, unless it requires the mobilization of all Westeros. The Warden of the East (and maybe North) would be responsible for repelling invasions from the Free Cities. But those roles no doubt evolved over time (and may not predate the Conquest), so the command structure from thousands of years ago might have been different.

[FanTasy]

Wow ... nice Christmas Gift we got from GRRM! :bowdown: It sheds no new light on what we discuss here at this thread, sadly.

The thing that struck me most is that the ravens become definitely players in the game, players that influence the plot.

I think this a sound confirmation that at the Wall there also was someone (Bloodraven, Bran) who was pulling at strings using the ravens :devil:

And probably not just recently.

[Black Crow]

About the Children being the Others and the creators of the White Walkers, I can't buy into the idea that the Children gave the 100 obsidian to the Watch and at the same time they are the Others receiving sacrifices to create the White Walkers. To me it makes no sense at all, because there is no reason for White Walkers to be created except for times of war, and when that comes, you don't want anyone armed with the only thing that can kill your host, be it friends or not. Friends can be turned or defeated by enemies, who then suddenly come into possession of these weapons.

Ah but that's the point; give us your children to become our servants and we will give you the means to ensure that they can't be turned against you

[FanTasy]

I have been thinking about the amount of the yearly contribution of the Children.

We discussed it as a token gift, small and possibly just a symbolic gift.

Was it?

Not necessarily, providing the white walkers weren't attacking on a regular basis or in great numbers.

As I said in an earlier post, if the white walkers are nearly invincible and can only be killed by a rare thing as dragonglass, what were they waiting for?

If they are pure evil with a mind set to annihilate humans, why didn't they attack Mance's Rayders force?

Why do we see so little and so few of them?

Let's assume Craster's offerings had someone to do with creating white walkers and his keep was a 'breeding station'. I forget how many wives he had, but the amount of boys he could 'deliver' on a yearly basis can't be very large.

Back to the Children's yearly gift. If the need to defend yourself against the white walkers of to attack them was not something that occurred every year, a gift of hundred arrowheads isn't that small. The Watch could stock them.

And anyway they wouldn't need much if the numbers of the white walkers were and stayed small.

[Eyron]

Ah but that's the point; give us your children to become our servants and we will give you the means to ensure that they can't be turned against you

Hm, I guess I don't see the point of the White Walkers then. What do the Children need them for, do you mean they are only for keeping the Free folks in check?

The Children have other means supposedly, and the Free folk worship the Old gods, Osha even said she could hear them. She could be an exception of course, but why do they believe that the Old gods and the weirwoods can protect them?

I have a feeling that the WWs are staying away from the weirwoods for some reason and that's why the Free folk go there. But that is all speculation :)

[Eyron]

Let's assume Craster's offerings had someone to do with creating white walkers and his keep was a 'breeding station'. I forget how many wives he had, but the amount of boys he could 'deliver' on a yearly basis can't be very large.

Back to the Children's yearly gift. If the need to defend yourself against the white walkers of to attack them was not something that occurred every year, a gift of hundred arrowheads isn't that small. The Watch could stock them.

And anyway they wouldn't need much if the numbers of the white walkers were and stayed small.

I agree, one hundred per year for several hundreds (thousands?) of years is a lot. Where did it all go I wonder, perhaps the stock is found in Winterfell :D in the crypts... Heh, just a thought...

[Ran]

Closing this thread as it's passed the 400 post mark. Feel free to start a new one. :)