The Green Grace is the Harpy

[ServantOnIce]

When the Green Grace's relative or whatever is debating with freed woman about some type of weaving trade. The women later are raped, their throat slit and the new loom that he was forced to by for them by Dany was smashed.

The Green Grace is The Harpy . . Ser Selmy needs to kill her in "WOW"

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

This has been tossed around before, last summer when the book first came out, but I'm doing a reread of ADWD and I'm pretty much sold on the Green Grace being the Harpy.

First off, the obvious: The Harpy in its mythological connotation is female. The (male) Meereenese nobles who are waging guerilla war against Her Radiance are referred to as Sons of the Harpy. If there really is a "head" figure in this guerilla war and they're not just a bunch of independent sleeper cells, it makes sense that the Harpy in question would be a woman. But it never occurs to Dany, herself a woman allegedly ruling a city, and her advisers that this is a possibility.

Dany's advisers are convinced that Hizdahr (who I think is a slug but ultimately just a pawn) is the Harpy, because "he" can get the violence to stop when Dany agrees to marry him. But who suggested to Dany that she should marry Hizdahr? The Green Grace.

Dany starts getting paranoid about the prophecy, thinking, for instance, that Reznak is probably the "perfumed seneschal." Yet she lets the Green Grace have access to her with pretty much no hesitancy or suspicion or wariness whatsoever. Even though she's a Ghiscari high priestess with significant cultural and familial ties to the city — she seems to defend the rise of the slave culture, saying that the area had no other economic prospects; she tells Dany to her face that she's seen as an invading murderer; she's intimately aware of each noble house and the differences between them. By giving Dany "helpful advice," she also has access to most of Dany's plans and strategy, and as such would know the easiest way to exploit any weaknesses. Dany tells her exactly who's moved against her and how (i.e. Qartheen ships doing a blockade). The Green Grace knows when freedmen have been killed, "or so she's been told." She also knows that Dany would never kill the child hostages — namely that she and her agents can wreak havoc without worrying about losing anything.

She also moves pretty seamlessly between the nobility and Dany's court — it seems to me that if she were actually helping Dany, she herself would be a target and treated like a collaborator. But she isn't. Why? Because she's not actually helping Dany.

Finally — this isn't exactly evidence, just a bit of irony — it'd be hilarious if the people that Dany's really suspicious of were actually loyal to her while the woman she thinks of as a close confidante is actually the one working to destroy her. Oops?

If the Green Grace is the Harpy, what’s her intention? Is she trying to force concessions out of Dany? Or to kill her?

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

sorry, once was enough

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If the Green Grace is the Harpy, what’s her intention? Is she trying to force concessions out of Dany? Or to kill her?

I think she's trying to get Dany to cut her losses and get the hell out. If she kills her, great, but really she just wants her gone.

I've seen a bunch of counterinsurgency case studies like Meereen before in the real world. Usually the aggressive invader — that'd be Dany — eventually decides that it's not worth it and leaves. This is typically after years of trying and failing to stop guerilla warfare and after taking heavy casualties over a long period of time.

[now my watch begins]

Green Grace is the Harpy, and her treason could be for the gold of Meereen. We are led to believe Plumm's treason is for gold, but that is expected of a sellsword, not really a treason.

[poor lollys]

I was actually thinking this too. Now that I have read your logic I'm 100% sold in this theory.

[Lady Octarina]

Green Grace is the Harpy, and her treason could be for the gold of Meereen. We are led to believe Plumm's treason is for gold, but that is expected of a sellsword, not really a treason.

:agree:

And I'm so looking forward to when Daenerys finally realizes her mistake here!

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

I think she's trying to get Dany to cut her losses and get the hell out. If she kills her, great, but really she just wants her gone.

The GG has been a trusted adviser of Dany’s for a while. She has access to her pyramid. So why wait till the reopening of the fighting pits to try an assassination out in public? Especially if it was going to be with poison rather than some big public spectacle to make a point.

Or was the attempted poisoning not the work of the Harpy/GG?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The GG has been a trusted adviser of Dany’s for a while. She has access to her pyramid. So why wait till the reopening of the fighting pits to try an assassination out in public? Especially if it was going to be with poison rather than some big public spectacle to make a point.

Or was the attempted poisoning not the work of the Harpy/GG?

I think the Harpy wanted Hizdahr to be secure in his power before she made a serious move. SHE is the one pushing him on Dany. Whether Hizdahr and the Green Grace have a sweetheart deal or the Grace knows she can manipulate him, who knows. If the Grace assassinates Dany before Dany has a consort, that leaves open a power vacuum in the leadership, and the Grace's pick may or may not end up in charge. If the Grace has her way and Dany marries Hizdahr though, his power base is assured if Dany is killed (which is pretty much what happened — Dany was assumed dead and Hizdahr took over as king). Likewise, the order to open the pits had to come from Dany; freedmen might have balked at it if the order came after her death. But if it seems like opening the pits was Dany's will, that can be carried over even after she's dead. Once Dany had married Hizdahr and the pits had reopened, the Grace had what she wanted out of Dany and was free to try an assassination attempt.

The Grace was a "trusted adviser of Dany's" because, frankly, Dany's not terribly quick on the uptake and trusts people she shouldn't. The Grace is just another MMD on a much larger scale.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

I think the Harpy wanted Hizdahr to be secure in his power before she made a serious move. SHE is the one pushing him on Dany. Whether Hizdahr and the Green Grace have a sweetheart deal or the Grace knows she can manipulate him, who knows. If the Grace assassinates Dany before Dany has a consort, that leaves open a power vacuum in the leadership, and the Grace's pick may or may not end up in charge. If the Grace has her way and Dany marries Hizdahr though, his power base is assured if Dany is killed (which is pretty much what happened — Dany was assumed dead and Hizdahr took over as king). Likewise, the order to open the pits had to come from Dany; freedmen might have balked at it if the order came after her death. But if it seems like opening the pits was Dany's will, that can be carried over even after she's dead. Once Dany had married Hizdahr and the pits had reopened, the Grace had what she wanted out of Dany and was free to try an assassination attempt.

The Grace was a "trusted adviser of Dany's" because, frankly, Dany's not terribly quick on the uptake and trusts people she shouldn't. The Grace is just another MMD on a much larger scale.

That all makes sense. But was the poisoning at the pit the Harpy's doing? Because it was a pretty shoddy effort. The tactics used by the Sons of the Harpy to that point were calculated, cold blooded and effective. The poison locusts were a weak effort and don’t seem to fit the modus operandi.

Did Hizdahr jump the gun? Act without orders as it were and try to off his new wife himself, rather than waiting for instructions from the GG.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That all makes sense. But was the poisoning at the pit the Harpy's doing? Because it was a pretty shoddy effort. The tactics used by the Sons of the Harpy to that point were calculated, cold blooded and effective. The poison locusts were a weak effort and don’t seem to fit the modus operandi.

Did Hizdahr jump the gun? Act without orders as it were and try to off his new wife himself, rather than waiting for instructions from the GG.

Honestly, who the hell knows. It could be as simple as, "Martin needed a shoddy effort for the plot to work, so the effort was shoddy."

While I think that the attempt was real, there's also the possibility that it was intentionally thrown and meant to turn Dany against her other advisers. The locusts were poisoned and the Brazen Beasts wear animal masks, at least some of which are locust-shaped. I'm pretty sure at least one person makes that connection; it could be seen to implicate the Shavepate.

I don't pin too much analysis on the poisoning, to be honest. It had to go a certain way for the plot to work so that's what happened.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

I don't pin too much analysis on the poisoning, to be honest. It had to go a certain way for the plot to work so that's what happened.

Probably true. When Dany leaves Meereen, finally, I’m sure she’s going to want to leave people she trusts in charge. And she’ll be using that dodgy judgment of hers. She’ll want to have fed the Harpy to Drogon before she leaves, and the silly sod who tried to poison her as well.

[Ivy Snow]

Maybe the betrayal for love prophecy refers to how Dany has betrays of herself by loving and trusting her purported swell swords and subjects too much. Might fit. Seems pretty obvious that the Green Grace is probably the harpy but Dany doesn't pick up on it.

I hope the betrayal for love is Drogo.. I hope Drogo eats her.. That will be a nice betrayal for love.. :)

[Ser Lepus]

I hope the betrayal for love is Drogo.. I hope Drogo eats her.. That will be a nice betrayal for love.. :)

Love of food?

[Ivy Snow]

Love of food?

LOL.. maybe :)

Edit: Or maybe because Danny is so " cute" that he wanted to eat her up....

[Naathi Prince]

This theory confirms a lot of my suspicions. As for why Dany trusts her, the answer to me is simple, when Dany leaves Astapor, she puts in place a council of "A healer, a scholar, and a priest", since the Green Grace is all three of them, Dany trusts her instinctively.

[Trinket2]

The Green Grace is the Harpy. It is known. This is one theory I agree with 100%.

[bemused]

Maybe the poisoning wasn't designed to be lethal Dany wouldn't have been expected to gobble down the whole bowl like Belwas. Maybe it was to be a two step poisoning.. If most people in the box tried a few and got sick, then it would be put down to normal food poisoning . Probably the Green grace would have been in charge of the cure , and ..oopsies !..Or it could have been meant to be seen as a failed poisoning attempt ,and with everyone close to Dany too sick to protest..it would be easy for the "outraged husband" to identify Quentyn as the culprit , and do away with him ( which he tries, anyway )

[Dr. Pepper]

Maybe the poisoning wasn't designed to be lethal Dany wouldn't have been expected to gobble down the whole bowl like Belwas. Maybe it was to be a two step poisoning.. If most people in the box tried a few and got sick, then it would be put down to normal food poisoning . Probably the Green grace would have been in charge of the cure , and ..oopsies !..Or it could have been meant to be seen as a failed poisoning attempt ,and with everyone close to Dany too sick to protest..it would be easy for the "outraged husband" to identify Quentyn as the culprit , and do away with him ( which he tries, anyway )

I have this crackpot theory that the locusts were actually coated in the berries that made Dany ill and possibly led to a miscarriage while she was wondering the Dothraki Sea after the flight from Meereen. It was known that Dany and Daario were having sex and Dany also declined having her lady parts be physically examined by Hizdahr's female relatives. They knew she would not still be a virgin considering she had previously been married, though it's unknown if they knew she had carried a child before, so what else would they have wanted to look for except to see if she was possibly already pregnant? At court, she's constantly noted to nibble on her food. I think perhaps that a berry-coated locust or two would have been enough to induce an abortion and possible discomfort but when eaten in large quantity they would make one violently ill, such as they did with Belwas and then later with Dany when she gobbled up large amounts.

[Lion of Judah]

I always thought that Shavepate and his Brazen Beast were behind the Harpy business. He seemed to use the Harpy's crime as a way to eliminate other nobles houses of Meereen, but given further thought the Green Grace makes some sense also.