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The Green Grace is the Harpy


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Yes. I think there's even a very specific family connection. There is a weaver who brings a petition to Daenerys and instead is forced to buy a new loom for his former slaves. His name is Grazdan zo Galare and he's the Green Grace's cousin.

Later the Sons of the Harpy are said to have broken into a weaving shop run by freedwomen. The Sons break the loom and rape and murder the women.

No connection is ever made explicitly between the two, but I've always been sure it was the same women who had been Grazdan's slaves (or some of the women; there were 6 slaves originally and only 3 were killed). It was orchestrated as vengeance for the humiliation and financial loss the Green Grace's cousin suffered at Daenerys' hands.

Good catch, I like it. Someone else mentioned too that Dany asked the Graces to tell her if anyone came in with sword wounds (i.e. Sons of the Harpy wounded in fighting), and nothing ever comes of this, suggesting that the Graces are in on it.

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I like this theory because the GG is the only remotely interesting character in Meeren and i am fed up with Dany only having cardboard villain antagonists. Some other reason why to me it ties nicely into her overall arc (assuming that the GG indeed is the Harpy)

1) It reenforces the "if I look back I´m lost" pattern that on the one hand makes Dany a formidable survivor but on the other hand also a bad ruler who is unable to analyse past mistakes and learn from them (see: MMD, nice elderly woman). Besides, it shows that the fallout from her flaw is growing bigger and bigger. Her trusting MMD "only" directly resulted in the death of two persons plus her power loss while trusting the GG has lead to a huge insurgency and a two front war that might destroy the region for decades to come.

2) It makes me wonder if there is a foreshadowing that Dany´s fatal mistakes is going to be trusting another "benevolent" woman in Westeros (probably Olenna) who will sell her out, too.

3) I think there are some mommy issues involved in her relying on the GG but also a certain amount of hybris. If Dany with her 14 years was able to conquer several cities why is it so difficult to assume that the GG, an intelligent and sophisticated woman, is not able to lead an insurgency? She is a natural suspect: Intelligent enough, check. Power loss through invasion, check. Crucified relatives, double check. Well-connected and with high legitimacy due to religious background, check.

Some questions to discuss: How do you view the GG´s role? Do you think the insurgency is a little bit justified or just the last thoes of a privileged class? Do you think that Dany´s counterinsurgency strategy (with ethnically dubious measures such as torturing the wineseller girls) is in part responsible for the growing antagonism with the Meerenese?

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Some questions to discuss: How do you view the GG´s role? Do you think the insurgency is a little bit justified or just the last thoes of a privileged class? Do you think that Dany´s counterinsurgency strategy (with ethnically dubious measures such as torturing the wineseller girls) is in part responsible for the growing antagonism with the Meerenese?

Bit of both. A large part of the old slaver nobility were ready to revolt from the start, but Dany has provided them with a steady train of supporters. Hazzea, that young guy whose mother was raped, the wineseller, everybody who is currently starving and the freaking pit fighters. They have delivered her Mereen, but Dany drove them to wishing their old status back.

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Some questions to discuss: How do you view the GG´s role? Do you think the insurgency is a little bit justified or just the last thoes of a privileged class? Do you think that Dany´s counterinsurgency strategy (with ethnically dubious measures such as torturing the wineseller girls) is in part responsible for the growing antagonism with the Meerenese?

Whether the insurgency is justified depends on your point of view. Their means are, yes, pretty brutal, maybe even needlessly brutal, like butchering the daughter of the confectioner when Dany didn't die of the poisoning. But from their perspective, Dany's an outsider, a foreigner and an invader who's destroyed a way of life (immoral, cruel, unjust, maybe, but it's what they know) that's lasted in that area for thousands of years. Talk about the pitfalls of moral relativism if you must, but if you were playing a game and someone came up and said that you were breaking the rules, even though you didn't know any better, and now they were going to conquer you and make you play by their rules, how would you react? Dany hates the Harpy because it's disrupting her coup transition, but guaran-damn-teed the general population of Meereen probably views the Harpy as a freedom fighter. Need proof? How many Sons of the Harpy does Dany actually capture through good tips and intelligence? Exactly. It also doesn't help that Dany, to them, is just a reincarnation of the upstart Valyrians and their dragons who gave them such a headache in the past.

And Dany isn't doing herself any favors by OK'ing torture. I know Martin didn't intend there to be an Iraq War parallel, but this is really the same basic colonial mess-up you see time and time again in history: hubristic, "civilized" invader shows up and is shocked that the population doesn't come along quietly. Guerilla warfare ensues, and you know what? The invader usually either loses or has to settle for a long, drawn-out, costly and often pyrrhic victory. If anything, give the Green Grace/Harpy credit for being devious, clever and shrewd in ways that the Astapori and the Yunkai weren't.

I actually did a research paper once on insurgencies and counterinsurgencies. Biggest point is, you can't defeat an insurgency militarily. You have to win the support of the population or you're screwed. Second biggest point is, an insurgency is like an ant infestation in your house. You see one, two, three, four ants. You think you've caught the infestation early, until you get into the wall and find the other million ants. Or, to put it in a historical perspective, by the time the French lost at Dien Bien Phu in Vietnam, something like 70% of small, local governments were already under Viet Cong control. Dien Bien Phu was the "official" defeat of France in Vietnam, but it had already lost long before then. Just as in Meereen, Dany had already lost control of the city to the Sons of the Harpy before she ever realized something was wrong.

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I actually did a research paper once on insurgencies and counterinsurgencies. Biggest point is, you can't defeat an insurgency militarily. You have to win the support of the population or you're screwed.

... or you have to exert far higher levels of violence than civilized people are expected to dish out. Disproportionate retribution and collective punishment are counter-insurgency tactics that did work in history (Nazi rule in Europe or how the Romans crushed rebellions come to mind). Of course, such tactics are out of question for a civilized nation nowadays, so winning the population becomes mandatory.

As for the original question, is the "resistance" of the GC and the SoH justified? Well, from their perspective certainly, they have lost their wealth and their possessions to an outside invader. What's more, there is no viable economic alternative for them, even if they wanted, they couldn't live as prosperous from other economic activities than they did as slavers. Plus, the leader of their enemy is a confused teenage girl seemingly unable to fight back effectively against the insurgency. So, from their point of view, it certainly makes sense to try to push back and restore the ancien regime.

As for Dany, I don't think she could "win over the population" as far as the ex-slavers of Mereen are concerned. Slave-trading was the source of their wealth, and there is no viable alternative for them that could generate a comparable prosperity. So the old slavers will always be discontent, because whatever Dany does, they will always be impoverished by her actions and would profit from a return to the old status. As they cannot be won over, exterminating or driving them out would have worked, so a new society could be formed with the freedmen. If not that, actually using the hostages she has and killing one (or ten or a hundred) for each of her people that dies would probably work as well (by a combination of reducing the SoH's recruitment pool and fear).

Note: I am not discussing the morality of these approaches, just practicalities. As for Dany's morality, she has already proven her capability of such acts when she exterminated the male slaver population in Astapor or cruficied the 163 slavers.

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Some questions to discuss: How do you view the GG´s role? Do you think the insurgency is a little bit justified or just the last thoes of a privileged class? Do you think that Dany´s counterinsurgency strategy (with ethnically dubious measures such as torturing the wineseller girls) is in part responsible for the growing antagonism with the Meerenese?

Dany never really had a counterinsurgency strategy. All she ever really seems to say is 'bring me these people so they can see what it means to wake the dragon'. As a campaign strategy it's pretty limited. Dany has a 'DANY SMASH' attitude to the problem, and unfortunately it's a lot more delicate than that. Which is exacerbated by the fact she has that mentality... but doesn't want to follow through with it. It's like, her instincts naturally go that way but she resists them, and when she does is left with nothing and no advisors with better ideas. She needed her some Jorah.

As for the insurgency being justified? Well, obviously. Dany waltzed in with an army, invaded, conquered, and put 163 of the ruling class to death by torturous crucifixion (in retaliation for their actions earlier, of course, but they're hardly going to just shrug, say 'fair's fair' and not feel angry), and then decided to completely annihilate the entire way of life and culture of the city.

Rights and wrongs aside, there's plenty of reasons to get your insurgency on in that little list, and that only covers things that we knew about PRE Dance. Once Drogon started snacking on the populace, it only got worse.

And Dany isn't doing herself any favors by OK'ing torture. I know Martin didn't intend there to be an Iraq War parallel, but this is really the same basic colonial mess-up you see time and time again in history: hubristic, "civilized" invader shows up and is shocked that the population doesn't come along quietly. Guerilla warfare ensues, and you know what? The invader usually either loses or has to settle for a long, drawn-out, costly and often pyrrhic victory. If anything, give the Green Grace/Harpy credit for being devious, clever and shrewd in ways that the Astapori and the Yunkai weren't.

There's a huge psychological edge to the insurgents, too. They're defending their homes, their way of life, their families. What's Dany defending? A half-formed ideal in her mind, and even that's contested by the desire to go back to Westeros.

I actually did a research paper once on insurgencies and counterinsurgencies. Biggest point is, you can't defeat an insurgency militarily. You have to win the support of the population or you're screwed. Second biggest point is, an insurgency is like an ant infestation in your house. You see one, two, three, four ants. You think you've caught the infestation early, until you get into the wall and find the other million ants. Or, to put it in a historical perspective, by the time the French lost at Dien Bien Phu in Vietnam, something like 70% of small, local governments were already under Viet Cong control. Dien Bien Phu was the "official" defeat of France in Vietnam, but it had already lost long before then. Just as in Meereen, Dany had already lost control of the city to the Sons of the Harpy before she ever realized something was wrong.

This was something I found really odd in Dance, actually.

Dany has the full support of the Freedmen as far as we know, and the Freedmen make up... half? more than half of the population of Dany's Meereen... and yet NONE of them are able to come forward with information? I guess we can chalk it up to Dany facing stiff, competent competition, but it seems weird to me that in all that time not one freedman is ever able to come up with even partial leads.

You're quite right, of course. Though it seems pretty pyrrhic since, victory or no, the invasion of Meereen is going ahead and if the invaders don't win the city's coming down in flames.

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Nice, it seems that I am not the only one who has dealed with COIN in this forum. Actually, it is a main field of study of mine and virtually everytime Dany does something in Dance I want to bang my hand against the wall.

Torben is right, there are basically two approaches: Winning the hearts and minds of the majority of the population that neither supports insurgents nor counterinsurgents in the beginning or go all iron fist. The problem with the latter however is that a) it will destroy Dany´s hope to ever gain legitimacy b. there will be not much left to rule after having fought a urban guerilla war in Meeren.

Also there are tacitcal problems: How is she suppossed to identify the insurgents? Torture is not only immoral but also leads to very questionable intelligence. Trying to engage in a battle with irregular fighters in the midst of the town also generally does not turn out well (see: Fallujah). The only strategy I maybe can see working is to establish a tight net of patroling foces establishing security (comparable to the French Quadrillage in Algeria).

Torben also mentioned that Dany is unable to gain the support of the slavers but I´d argue that she does not have to gain it for a strategy to work. She only needs the support of the great majority of the population that in theory could report suspicious incidents thus leading to the capture of insurgents,possibly the purchase of intelligence and - for the insurgents - the loss of their proverbial water to seek shelter in incognito.

I think by now Dany´s greatest mistakes has been the use of torture (we saw in Algeria and Iraq how well that turned out), her rejection of Meerenese culture, the indiscriminate killing of 163 people without trial (who could have been basically everyone!) and the lack of a coherent political strategy. Especially the latter was fatal because COIN is at its core a politcal activity not a military one. Or as conventional wisdom suggests: You can get tactic wrong and later adapt it as long as your strategy works but you cannot do it vice versa.

Many people hate the Meerense plot but I have to admit that I actually like it. Martin shows a certain awareness for the political problems and found a way to make Dany fail that is very much IC for her. Dany is a great tactican and conquerer but she is really bad as politician which has real and tangible consequences in Meeren.

I sometime wonder if Westerosi tacticans are familiar with COIN? Dorne has a long tradition of irregular warfare and I doubt that no one ever thought about analysing this. I assume that Westeros probably also has its equivalents of Galula or Thompson and I wonder if Barristan is familiar with them.

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A nice tidbit:

In Dany's fourth chapter, Galazza Galare already knows about the recent attacks of the Harpy's Sons. She 'has been told'. But the victims this time are some weavers, most likely those weavers Galazza's kinsman wanted money from in the first chapter. The former slaves who had been trained by his old slave whose name he forgot. I never caught this before, but it fits nicely into everything...

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The "163 'slavers' crucified" thing still sticks in my mind and honestly I'm surprised that Dany's supporters don't seem to be bothered by it.

Dany strolls into town, an old lady noblewoman asks what she wants, and Dany says 163 nobles, whom she then crucifies.

How in the hell can she know for sure which people she got? We know she did crucify them, but did she take at least some precaution to make sure they were who the nobles said they were? How did the nobles decide whom to give up? Did they draw lots? Send in the riffraff upstart nobles, preserving the oldest and most dangerous ones? Dress up some servants in tokars and pass them off as nobles? You just know Dany thought she was hot shit, serving up vengeance for the poor crucified slave children, when it's quite likely she really had no idea exactly whom it was she herself crucified.

And that's to say nothing of the "kill all the tokar-wearing males older than twelve!" order she gives the Unsullied. The same people frothing at the mouth over the evils of marrying off thirteen-year-old girls had nothing to say about Dany ordering the slaughter of thirteen-year-old boys.

You know what, screw it. I'm Team Green Grace.

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Torben is right, there are basically two approaches: Winning the hearts and minds of the majority of the population that neither supports insurgents nor counterinsurgents in the beginning or go all iron fist. The problem with the latter however is that a) it will destroy Dany´s hope to ever gain legitimacy b. there will be not much left to rule after having fought a urban guerilla war in Meeren.

Also there are tacitcal problems: How is she suppossed to identify the insurgents?

I don't even believe that it is necessary to identify the insurgents in person. It is clear from which group (former slavers) they come from, so she could just retaliate against this group. This is essentially also the advice the Shavepate gave her, but she is unwilling to following through with killing the hostages. Sidenote: It would actually be a nice irony if Dany died from being poisoned by one of her cute hostages.

And that's to say nothing of the "kill all the tokar-wearing males older than twelve!" order she gives the Unsullied. The same people frothing at the mouth over the evils of marrying off thirteen-year-old girls had nothing to say about Dany ordering the slaughter of thirteen-year-old boys.

Actually, I believe this might have worked out in Mereen. Exterminating the entire slaver population would have reduced the potential recruitment pool of the SoH to practically zero. Of course, expelling them from the city would pretty much have the same effect. I always found it weird that in Mereen Dany did not resort to the sort of undiscriminating brutality and cruelty she had already proven capable of and that would most likely have helped her achieve her goals.

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Actually, I believe this might have worked out in Mereen. Exterminating the entire slaver population would have reduced the potential recruitment pool of the SoH to practically zero. Of course, expelling them from the city would pretty much have the same effect. I always found it weird that in Mereen Dany did not resort to the sort of undiscriminating brutality and cruelty she had already proven capable of and that would most likely have helped her achieve her goals.

Except that, despite killing all the adult slavers in Astapor, slavery started up again as soon as she left, with a former SLAVE now doing the enslaving. So I don't see how that was any sort of a "success." If anything, that's Exhibit A that the Slaver's Bay culture is bigger than any one person or group of people and can survive even a mass extermination of the power players. Kill one group and another comes up to take its place.

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Except that, despite killing all the adult slavers in Astapor, slavery started up again as soon as she left, with a former SLAVE now doing the enslaving. So I don't see how that was any sort of a "success." If anything, that's Exhibit A that the Slaver's Bay culture is bigger than any one person or group of people and can survive even a mass extermination of the power players. Kill one group and another comes up to take its place.

Well, I did not say Astapor was a success, or did I? My point was that exterminating the slavers might have actually worked for Dany in Mereen, where she wanted to rule, because it would have eliminated a huge group of people that were both embittered and impoverished by the end of slavery. In a way, Dany tried twice to end slavery (in Astapor and in Mereen), but both times she did only one of the two things that might actually lead to the establishment of a non-slavery based society in Slaver's Bay.

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Well, I did not say Astapor was a success, or did I? My point was that exterminating the slavers might have actually worked for Dany in Mereen, where she wanted to rule, because it would have eliminated a huge group of people that were both embittered and impoverished by the end of slavery. In a way, Dany tried twice to end slavery (in Astapor and in Mereen), but both times she did only one of the two things that might actually lead to the establishment of a non-slavery based society in Slaver's Bay.

Right, but I'm saying, she actually did in Astapor what you say she should have done in Meereen: exterminated the slavers (i.e. had the Unsullied kill all the adult — I use "adult" loosely — men in tokars). That didn't work in Astapor, so I'm not sure why it would work in Meereen.

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@Apple Martini

I am sorry, maybe I was not clear: Exterminating the slavers and staying to rule at least until a stable non-slavery based social order is firmly established might work. In Astapor she only did the former, in Mereen only the latter, while I think doing both might work.

Think about it: The butcher king and the new slavers in Astapor always struck me as opportunistic, they replaced a weak council and reestablished the slave trade because it was so easy for them to do so. They would probably not have moved against Dany had she stayed with her forces.

Dany's enemies in Mereen are completely different, however: They are ideologically convinced that they are on the right side (after all, they have been the ruling class of Mereen for centuries), they have suffered economically from the end of slavery, and they can easily set up conspiracies and secret organizations to fight back because of their shared heritage as members of the same social class. Cleon and his rag-tag gang of usurpers would have had a much more difficult time setting up a functional underground organization against Dany because he would have to maintain secrecy among a gang of opportunistic people that are not bound together by a common ideology and social identity.

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The "163 'slavers' crucified" thing still sticks in my mind and honestly I'm surprised that Dany's supporters don't seem to be bothered by it.

Dany strolls into town, an old lady noblewoman asks what she wants, and Dany says 163 nobles, whom she then crucifies.

How in the hell can she know for sure which people she got? We know she did crucify them, but did she take at least some precaution to make sure they were who the nobles said they were? How did the nobles decide whom to give up? Did they draw lots? Send in the riffraff upstart nobles, preserving the oldest and most dangerous ones? Dress up some servants in tokars and pass them off as nobles? You just know Dany thought she was hot shit, serving up vengeance for the poor crucified slave children, when it's quite likely she really had no idea exactly whom it was she herself crucified.

And that's to say nothing of the "kill all the tokar-wearing males older than twelve!" order she gives the Unsullied. The same people frothing at the mouth over the evils of marrying off thirteen-year-old girls had nothing to say about Dany ordering the slaughter of thirteen-year-old boys.

You know what, screw it. I'm Team Green Grace.

I really can imagine the scene

- Hey *insert name with too many consonants*. we need people to deliver to the Stomborn. What shall we do?

- Well, do you remember * insert name with too many consonants*? He owes me lots of money.

- Fine. What about * insert name with too many consonants*? He sold out our family secrets to his lover from that * insert name with too many consonants* family.

- O.K but we still need another family member. What about * insert name with too many consonants*? He really wants do to his own thing and is starting to become a pesky competitor.

- Fine. But don´t you think she will notice that these are only little fishes?What if they are going to beg for mercy?

- I don´t think so. Their family will need feeding, won´t it?

Btw, I object to the marriage of 13-years-olds as well as to the killing of 13-years-olds...

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I really can imagine the scene

- Hey *insert name with too many consonants*. we need people to deliver to the Stomborn. What shall we do?

- Well, do you remember * insert name with too many consonants*? He owes me lots of money.

- Fine. What about * insert name with too many consonants*? He sold out our family secrets to his lover from that * insert name with too many consonants* family.

- O.K but we still need another family member. What about * insert name with too many consonants*? He really wants do to his own thing and is starting to become a pesky competitor.

- Fine. But don´t you think she will notice that these are only little fishes?What if they are going to beg for mercy?

- I don´t think so. Their family will need feeding, won´t it?

Btw, I object to the marriage of 13-years-olds as well as to the killing of 13-years-olds...

The sad thing, I can see the crucified slavers being the only people in the city that asked to make peace with Dany, and they being killed as a secret mockery...

Dany should NEVER have let their enemies to choose the victims...

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The sad thing, I can see the crucified slavers being the only people in the city that asked to make peace with Dany, and they being killed as a secret mockery...

Dany should NEVER have let their enemies to choose the victims...

Knowing how Martin writes, I'll be surprised - genuinely - if it doesn't emerge that the Harpy in fact used that incident to get rid of all opposition and to set themselves up as the de facto leader of the suddenly oppressed (in their minds) ruling class. He loves kicking people in the teeth for doing.... well, just about anything actually.

I don't even believe that it is necessary to identify the insurgents in person. It is clear from which group (former slavers) they come from, so she could just retaliate against this group. This is essentially also the advice the Shavepate gave her, but she is unwilling to following through with killing the hostages. Sidenote: It would actually be a nice irony if Dany died from being poisoned by one of her cute hostages.

Pretty much. After she decided to go retaliatory she was locked on an all-or-nothing. There's no way you can perform such a brutal action and then turn around and pout because none of them like you anymore. She declared war on the people she intended to rule. Of course they were going to strike back at her. And as we saw, economic sanctions never bothered them at all.

Actually, I believe this might have worked out in Mereen. Exterminating the entire slaver population would have reduced the potential recruitment pool of the SoH to practically zero. Of course, expelling them from the city would pretty much have the same effect. I always found it weird that in Mereen Dany did not resort to the sort of undiscriminating brutality and cruelty she had already proven capable of and that would most likely have helped her achieve her goals.

The thing is that Dany throughout Dance desperately wants to not be that person. The violence horrifies her, and she's terribly afraid of being a destructive monster. Which is why a lot of people read the last chapter as Dany embracing being the burn it all and kill all opposition hard ass that she obviously doesn't want to be. I personally find very little hope in the phrase 'The dragons know who you are, do you?'

Colour me crazy, but taking moral advice from Drogon and his non-gendered siblings doesn't strike me as a good thing for any sort of ruler.

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Except that, despite killing all the adult slavers in Astapor, slavery started up again as soon as she left, with a former SLAVE now doing the enslaving. So I don't see how that was any sort of a "success." If anything, that's Exhibit A that the Slaver's Bay culture is bigger than any one person or group of people and can survive even a mass extermination of the power players. Kill one group and another comes up to take its place.

So, your solution is...don't bother? Maybe Dany is a ham-fisted idiot for trying to change things, but I admire her for trying. Martin, too, I think:

My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.

Back on topic, I also think that the Green Grace is the Harpy. That said, while there aren't exactly big flashing arrows pointing at her, it wasn't too hard to winkle out that the Green Grace was the best Harpy candidate. So, maybe a bit too easy? Either Martin wants us to figure it out, to show us how bad Dany (and Barristan) are at reading people, or he's leading us on, and the Harpy really is someone else. Probably the former - as being able (or unable) to see a person's true nature behind his or her outward aspect is a running theme of the books.

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Btw, I object to the marriage of 13-years-olds as well as to the killing of 13-years-olds...

Oh I do too. But in one of the other Dany threads, people were upset about a young girl being married off but didn't spare a thought for the young boys who were, yes, murdered.

So, your solution is...don't bother? Maybe Dany is a ham-fisted idiot for trying to change things, but I admire her for trying.

No. Why must it be all or nothing with some of you? Like if I think Dany went about this the wrong way, I must somehow think slavery is acceptable. Please. I don't see anything wrong with being pragmatic and realizing that you can't change a millennia-old society overnight. Maybe that makes me cynical, who knows. Obviously you do what you can when you can do it, but this one-person-versus-the-world thing doesn't typically work. Even in history, when we think of one-guy-changes-the-world stuff, it turns out that there was much more to it than just a single person.

My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results... but it is the effort that's heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.

Is Slaver's Bay better off now than it was when Dany found it? I think that's highly debatable.

Back on topic, I also think that the Green Grace is the Harpy. That said, while there aren't exactly big flashing arrows pointing at her, it wasn't too hard to winkle out that the Green Grace was the best Harpy candidate. So, maybe a bit too easy? Either Martin wants us to figure it out, to show us how bad Dany (and Barristan) are at reading people, or he's leading us on, and the Harpy really is someone else. Probably the former - as being able (or unable) to see a person's true nature behind his or her outward aspect is a running theme of the books.

And yet Dany never figures it out. Which, like you suggested, might be the point.

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