Is anyone else sick of it?

[LordBloodraven]

These are three different things:

* Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

* Jon being King of Westeros

* Jon Snow is Azor Ahai Rebort/TPTWP.

There are many hints that point to the first one. For the second, there's no tangible proof and for the third the most telling hint is his dream when he's armored in ice. I think the first one is going to happen in the future books. But I don't see that changing him a lot, Jon will be always Jon the sullen, cold and determined guy. I guess he'll be relieved to know about his mother. There's this theory in the threads that state that AAH is just the Night's Watch and that every Lord Commander is Azor Ahai Reborn. I tend to think like that. We could say that Jon stabbed Nissa Nissa in the heart when he refused Stannis's offer of being Lord of Winterfell (the thing he always wanted, even though he tries to deny it). King of Westeros is so posh, I don't see him putting his arse in the Iron throne. And it's not because he's Rhaegar's son that he'll be king. Aegon (fake?) and Dany both precede him in the order of succession. I don't see any cliché over there.

I must say that it's sickening to see people sickened by other people's preferences. It's not like the R+L=J believers are writing the book or are a source of inspiration to the author. If GRRM meant it, it will happen. If he doesn't, it won't. Unless, you can't stand those that talk about it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What makes you think that being AA is interchangeable with being the King of the Seven Kingdoms?

ETA: I don't think Jon's story is any more cliched than, say, Dany's. Poor little beggar princess hatches dragons in some freak magical instance, boom, everyone starts kissing her ass.

[Lord of the Night]

Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, Son of the Dragon and the Wolf. He will beat the Others and save the world from the apocalypse.

But he won't be king. That is Aegon VI's duty.

LotN

[Spinebreaker]

You know, I'm not a fan of the theory, but GRRM has spent five books hammering it into our heads with highly unsubtle foreshadowing. At this point, revealing that it isn't true after all would be hard to pull off without it seeming like a complete ass pull that reeks of "OMG some fans guessed my plot, better change it to make it more surprising!".

You mean the 'Lost' ass pull...

[zmflavius]

I guess I'm the only one around here who reads fantasy for escapism then.

If I wanted to reflect on the shitty reality of the world we live in, I would read historical fiction instead.

If you read fantasy for escapism, you're really not looking at the right books.

See, one of the few things in life which really, completely, totally, utterly pisses me off is the association of fantasy (and sci-fi as well, it's probably worth mentioning) with escapism, as if readers of fantasy and sci-fi are too rock dumb or immature to deal with "good novels of philosophical reach," as Terry Goodkind would put it. Admittedly, you aren't using this as a vehicle to condemn fantasy or fantasy readers, but even so, the existence of the stereotype just pisses me off in general.

Likewise with this thread. If a similar theory were to be conceived about a "serious novel," then nobody would say it was over-complicating matters, or that it was the result of the over-reactive hormones of shippers. It's like fantasy authors simply don't or can't create stories with more than one layer of meaning, or with stories which have something other than black and white morality.

[zalim]

i dont care what he is ! i just dont want to see him dead !!

[James Nicholls]

To be honest I haven't worried too much about the more fantastic elements of this series. I'm more in it for the political intrigue (and the fact Eddard Stark was awesome). My perception is that GRRM has a more liberal interpretation of prophecy, in much the same way as it's implied in Harry Potter that Voldemort could have ignored the prophecy about the Boy who would come to defeat him.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

On reflection, I can say I'm tired of the fact that the whole mystery of Jon's birth remains unresolved after 5 books and 5,000 page -- and may remain unresolved until the last page of the last book. By the time it's revealed that R & L = J, who's going to give a damn?

[The Mother of The Others]

It'd be cool if Jon lived and fought and died and was memorialized as a great man, and then somebody like the Crannogman comes along and says, "Well it's only fitting that he made everyone proud. He was the king, ya know." Or maybe the Crannogman should die trying to tell people this, so that really it's only us who know the truth.

[Gillio]

On reflection, I can say I'm tired of the fact that the whole mystery of Jon's birth remains unresolved after 5 books and 5,000 page -- and may remain unresolved until the last page of the last book. By the time it's revealed that R & L = J, who's going to give a damn?

Certainly not Jon. He's his own person now.

[Silmarien]

What makes you think that being AA is interchangeable with being the King of the Seven Kingdoms?

ETA: I don't think Jon's story is any more cliched than, say, Dany's. Poor little beggar princess hatches dragons in some freak magical instance, boom, everyone starts kissing her ass.

Er, not to go off-topic, but following the dragon incident, Dany also had to endure the Red Waste (watching her khalasar die), assassination attempts in Qarth, etc, and this was after being sold as a slave bride to Khal Drogo, and being repeatedly raped by him.

On topic...I don't understand the big deal. It's fun to theorize. Why are you on these forums if you hate people theorizing about who AA/PWWP/King-and/or-Queen of Westeros?

I partially agree with the OP. Jon shouldn't be AA/TPTWP... because no one should be. Perhaps I misplaced my expectations, but I was drawn to ASoIaF by the political intrigue and the characters, and the idea that this will all be sidelined so that a Hero of Destiny can defeat the Irredeemably Evil Others and rule as a wise, fair and revolutionary King/Queen just clashes so strongly with the rest of the story that I can't really see why people would be looking forward to it. Did people really think The House Of The Undying sequence was more interesting/fulfilling than Jaime going back for Brienne, or Theon jumping off the wall of Winterfell? Are they really hoping to see Jon fight a horde of wights with an armor of ice and a sword of fire or Dany burn the others from the sky more than they are looking forward to see the new political configuration of Westeros? I guess it's a valid opinion, but I can't really see where they are coming from.

It's possible to enjoy both the secondary characters' journeys (Brienne, Jaime, Theon), AND to enjoy the prophesy aspects of the series. That's why having a 7 (maybe 8) book series is so great.

[Silmarien]

On reflection, I can say I'm tired of the fact that the whole mystery of Jon's birth remains unresolved after 5 books and 5,000 page -- and may remain unresolved until the last page of the last book. By the time it's revealed that R & L = J, who's going to give a damn?

Meh, GRRM can't give away all the mysteries in book 5 of 7. Why keep reading, otherwise?

ETA: Kinda the same reason Dany hasn't flown to Westeros yet. There needs to be material for books 6 and 7.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

On topic...I don't understand the big deal. It's fun to theorize. Why are you on these forums if you hate people theorizing about who AA/PWWP/King-and/or-Queen of Westeros?

Disagreeing with people means "hating"? OK.

Also, it's possible to enjoy both the secondary characters' journeys (Brienne, Jaime, Theon), AND to enjoy the prophesy aspects of the series. That's why having a 7 (maybe 8) book series is so great.

OK?

[Silmarien]

Disagreeing with people means "hating"? OK.

OK?

I wasn't referring to you AM.

The second part of my post was directed at the person who posted that they enjoyed the Game of Thrones aspects, as well as Theon jumping over the walls of Winterfell, and Jaime's arc. Not at anything you posted. Sorry if I was unclear.

ETA: I added the post I was referring to, by Noimporta, to my previous post. Hope that made what I was trying to say make sense.

ETA2: Also, of course it's fine to disagree, and not like the AA/PWWP/King of Westeros plotlines. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. There was a kind of nasty post (probably a troll) who basically said people that discuss/analyze/theorize are morons who need to get friends and a social life, or write their own books, etc. That kind of thing was what I was replying to, in general.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wasn't referring to you AM.

The second part of my post was directed at the person who posted that they enjoyed the Game of Thrones aspects, as well as Theon jumping over the walls of Winterfell, and Jaime's arc. Not at anything you posted. Sorry if I was unclear.

ETA: I added the post I was referring to, by Noimporta, to my previous post. Hope that made what I was trying to say make sense.

ETA2: Also, of course it's fine to disagree, and not like the AA/PWWP/King of Westeros plotlines. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. There was a kind of nasty post (probably a troll) who basically said people that discuss/analyze/theorize are morons who need to get friends and a social life, or write their own books, etc. That kind of thing was what I was replying to, in general.

OK, sorry.

[Silmarien]

OK, sorry.

Nah, my fault. I was unclear.

[Noimporta]

It's possible to enjoy both the secondary characters' journeys (Brienne, Jaime, Theon), AND to enjoy the prophesy aspects of the series. That's why having a 7 (maybe 8) book series is so great.

There was a kind of nasty post (probably a troll) who basically said people that discuss/analyze/theorize are morons who need to get friends and a social life, or write their own books, etc. That kind of thing was what I was replying to, in general.

I hope my post didn't come off as that, it certainly wasn't my intention. And I don't deny that it's possible to enjoy both the politics/character arcs and the prophecies (again, assuming our expectations aren't dramatically subverted), it's just that I consider the former to be strongest part of the series, and the latter probably the weakest (OK, not really, the sex scenes are probably worse), and I'm honestly curious as to why people would prefer the latter.

[Skeksi]

I really, really don't want to cause offence to anyone, but I have to wonder: If you read fantasy for escapism, then why in the seven hells are you reading A Song of Ice and Fire?

I mean, we have characters dying left right and centre, including some central, well liked characters. Sure, some characters go out fighting for a noble cause, most are killed through trickery, execution, etc. I mean- the Red Wedding, Ned's death, death of Dany's unborn child. Characters that we see inside the heads of, and are encouraged to empathise with, often do bad things- from drinking too much or being unfaithful, right up to plotting/ committing murder. Characters who come out on top are often manipulative politician types, such as Littlefinger and Varys, and possibly the Queen of Thorns, who treat other people as pawns in their schemes.

What about this suggests escapism? I mean, maybe you (general you) haven't been affected by the character deaths so far, not everyone feels attached to the same characters after all, but surely it conveys a very real sense of danger and lack of natural justice, if you like?

I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with reading for escapism. I do it sometimes, I suspect everyone does it to a certain extent. But I think the people here object to "Jon being a bastard who turns out to be a secret prince" because they feel it DOESN'T fit with the mood of the books so far, which seem to try and put the characters in uncomfortable situations, and sometimes have the bad guys come out on top. I've seen a few people use the escapism argument regarding Jon before, and it puzzles me, because it implies that a twist other than Jon being a secret prince will somehow break the escapism of the book. Either that, or you're torturing yourself through books of misery waiting for the escapism? Or maybe I'm just misinterpreting people's ideas of escapism.

[RandomWanderer]

Personally I would be very disappointed if Jon's story does not end like this...

"Sir... the wall is yours"

" yes.... the wall is mine".... * camera slowly pans out up to show the wall and everyone lives happily ever after".

so in essence.. I agree with the OP..

[Silmarien]

I hope my post didn't come off as that, it certainly wasn't my intention. And I don't deny that it's possible to enjoy both the politics/character arcs and the prophecies (again, assuming our expectations aren't dramatically subverted), it's just that I consider the former to be strongest part of the series, and the latter probably the weakest (OK, not really, the sex scenes are probably worse), and I'm honestly curious as to why people would prefer the latter.

No, I was referring to a different post, not yours, as "nasty". Sorry for not making that more clear!

ETA: I was referring to this post:

^{In Compllete agreement, those who believe this theory are simply cretins who read to much into the story instead of just enjoying it, And to all those plebs who are giving off to us anti theorists for poor arguements etc, I would say go out make some friends, get invited to some parties, get layed and chill the fuck out instead of reading each line of the book 15 times whilst theorising what it could possibly mean. I am fairly certian GRRM doesnt read into what he says as much as you fuckers, in fact i would hope that GRRM will just leave jon dead whilst holding up his middle finger to you all. And in relation to all those stupid theories instead of posting your shit on this forum why dont you just write your own book and we can all watch it sink into the bargin bin at tescos.}