Is anyone else sick of it?

[DragonSpawn]

So the Old Gods really are good for something after all! That's good to know...After 5 books of nearly complete inaction on their part, they can finally be significant in some way:P

I hope so... the old gods started this with a firm warning to Ned and have subsequently supported the Starks in everything ... (not Cat though... she's a rhollor slave now... consumed by fire and revenge... not justice) ... so hopefully they have their big finale still to come...

It could all be bullshit though... the great other could just be some random evil old wizard sending his armies south... Dany might be the saviour and the Starks may all be good and despite all they have suffered are still noble enough to not seek revenge and just focus on killing the white walkers ... YAWN!

[RedBean]

The realm still doesn't believe in it since the Others haven't breached the wall yet. Whoever takes charge will be tested then so Stannis' efforts don't apply yet since the War for the Dawn hasn't started. We've only seen the Others twice in the series so far. The NW is more focused on wildlings and Stannis and since Ned didn't believe in the Others I'm willing to bet the other Northmen no longer believe in them either. It's not yet time for the realm to have its reality check the hard way.

& Jon didn't object. He was offered out by Stannis to get something that he actually did want but he said no.

But how can you be so sure that everyone will just accept Jon as their leader just because of the Others? It seems just as likely that they'll just keep him as a battle commander in the North and pick someone else to be king who actually knows about politics. Again, Jon doesn't have the experience necessary to deal with the entire realm of Westeros.

And he wanted to rebuild Winterfell because it was his father's castle and it was burned down by the Boltons. That was a sentimental feeling on his part, not because he felt he was entitled to rule Winterfell or anything. He turned down Stannis's offer in the end, because he knew that wasn't what he was meant to do.

[ARYa_Nym]

But how can you be so sure that everyone will just accept Jon as their leader just because of the Others? It seems just as likely that they'll just keep him as a battle commander in the North and pick someone else to be king who actually knows about politics. Again, Jon doesn't have the experience necessary to deal with the entire realm of Westeros.

And he wanted to rebuild Winterfell because it was his father's castle and it was burned down by the Boltons. That was a sentimental feeling on his part, not because he felt he was entitled to rule Winterfell or anything. He turned down Stannis's offer in the end, because he knew that wasn't what he was meant to do.

I never said this person had to be Jon. I said whoever takes charge. This could very well be Dany and the other two heads of the dragon will help her.

I don't think it's going to be a situation where the Others are invading the realm but Southern politics is still going on peacefully like it's no big deal.

He never wanted to rebuild Winterfell. He wanted to be the Lord of Winterfell.

[EdricBaratheon]

But how can you be so sure that everyone will just accept Jon as their leader just because of the Others? It seems just as likely that they'll just keep him as a battle commander in the North and pick someone else to be king who actually knows about politics. Again, Jon doesn't have the experience necessary to deal with the entire realm of Westeros.

And he wanted to rebuild Winterfell because it was his father's castle and it was burned down by the Boltons. That was a sentimental feeling on his part, not because he felt he was entitled to rule Winterfell or anything. He turned down Stannis's offer in the end, because he knew that wasn't what he was meant to do.

Well that, or duty was the reason for Jon declining Stannis's offer! I could most probably think that if Jon was not made Lord Commander in ASOS, he would probably be on his way with Stannis right now to reclaim Winterfell!

Plus, Didn;t Robb make mention to 'his' heir to other Northern Lords before the events of the Red Wedding, if Robb wanted Jon to suceed him, surel Jon must comply with that offer?

[Yeade]

Regarding how R+L=J may be revealed, the regular posters in the dauntingly long R+L=J threads have already reviewed a number of possibilities. Before outlining these for discussion here, I think it's important to note that what's most likely to convince, say, Jon is not necessarily effective in satisfying Dany or acceptable proof to the Seven Kingdoms at large. That is, rather than a single or even several pieces of evidence so incontrovertible as to cement R+L=J as truth in everyone's mind, circumstantial facts and eyewitness testimonies given by many disparate sources can match up in different ways to persuade different individuals that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents and/or he's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

Howland Reed, though Ned Stark's loyal companion and bannerman, is not well suited to the purpose of telling all of Westeros about R+L=J due to his obscurity, IMO, but is instead meant to confirm the theory to Jon. Similarly, should Bran stumble upon Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying before a weirwood as per northern traditions while plying his greenseer skills as many suspect, what he says won't have much weight with anyone except, again, Jon. Poor Jon hasn't the slightest notion that his parentage is such a potentially explosive political issue and, for various personal reasons like not wishing to believe his father figure would keep this secret from him so long, might be extremely unwilling to accept R+L=J unless he hears it from people he trusts not to lie to him.

Elsewhere, there's at least one other person who knows a great deal about R+L=J: Wylla, who serves as Edric Dayne's wetnurse and is presumably still in the employ of the Daynes at Starfall. There's a very interesting line in AGOT that suggests Howland Reed isn't alone when he finds Ned after Lyanna dies, leading to much speculation about Wylla or other servants being present at the Tower of Joy. This hypothetical staff wouldn't be large and is probably on loan from nearby Starfall, meaning there's little chance of R+L=J rumors spreading because these Dayne retainers are Targaryen loyalists. The Daynes themselves may be in on Ned's conspiracy to cover up Jon's parentage. Arthur Dayne's definitely privy to Rhaegar's plans, and Ned travels to Starfall after leaving the Tower of Joy, ostensibly to return Dawn to Ashara and the Daynes, who years later are so impressed with Ned as to name the heir to Starfall after him.

It's also possible there's a maester at the Tower of Joy to attend Lyanna during her pregnancy. Marwyn's been named as a candidate. His sabbatical across the Narrow Sea shortly after Robert's Rebellion could be an excuse to remove him from those who might ask unfortunate questions about his whereabouts in the late war. He knows something of the whole AAR/PTWP business, as well.

What's more, perhaps the most compelling argument for Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy after Viserys and the remaining known members of the royal family have fled to Dragonstone. Barristan and Connington may have information to offer about this, not to mention both men can give accounts of the tourney at Harrenhal.

Finally, there's the dragons' magical ability to detect those of Targaryen blood and the question of why Jon's dreams seem to be leading him to the Winterfell crypts. The former is pretty self-explanatory and may be tested soon on Aegriff. One common explanation of the latter is that Jon needs to visit his mother's grave. My favorite theory's that Rhaegar, upon deciding that he, Aegon, or Jon is to be AAR/PTWP, dispatches trusted members of the Kingsguard to steal back Blackfyre from the Golden Company. Blackfyre's then at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrives, either because Rhaegar wishes to present it to Jon or the Kingsguard head straight there after returning from Essos, and Ned buries the sword with Lyanna since House Targaryen's dead or in exile. Rhaegar's silver harp, which Dany's seen in her House of the Undying visions, is another possibility; Rhaegar keeps the instrument at the Tower of Joy to sing for his lady love.

Honestly, I wouldn't put it past Bloodraven, who almost certainly knows more than he's revealed thus far, to be giving Jon hints about R+L=J in the form of these recurring nightmares. Plus, Bloodraven's a prime suspect for skinchanging Mormont's chatty old bird, who's called Jon "king" on a few occasions.

Statements from Barristan, Connington, the Daynes, and maybe Marwyn plus the Winterfell crypts perhaps hiding an identifiable Targaryen heirloom may be sufficient to convince Dany of R+L=J taken together with her experiences in the House of the Undying (blue flower on the ice wall) and how her dragons react to Jon. Actually, I feel Aegriff's purpose, besides forming southern alliances for Dany to co-opt from him, is to introduce her to the idea of long lost nephews, lol. Specifically, to expose her deep desire for family, even if Aegriff ultimately turning out to be a pretender makes Dany wary of Jon at first. In this respect, Jon displaying a strong aversion to R+L=J himself may work in his favor with Dany.

Once Dany's won over, whether the rest of Westeros believes R+L=J or not is kind of a moot point, IMO. Additionally, it may be instructive to consider that, faced with much the same evidence as above, many of the members of this board or readers of ASOIAF in general have become diehard converts to R+L=J despite not figuring it out themselves. I feel there's a sense that the mystery of Jon's parentage--gossiped about in-universe as well as in real life, lol--appears impenetrable until R+L=J is proposed, suddenly realigning all expectations and making a clear picture of otherwise unexplained events. Besides, folks in the Seven Kingdoms are willing to accept that Aegon lives by virtue of a baby-switching scheme that's positively baroque in its complexity whereas us readers are nearly certain Aegriff's a red herring of some sort. I'd say the credibility threshold of ye average Westerosi peasant is quite a bit lower than that of people on these forums as the former obviously can't know they're in an epic fantasy and really, really want a hero king who can put an end to the wars, save the realm, etc.

[ARYa_Nym]

Bloodraven has given Jon hints already through Mormont's raven.

I think if anyone will show up with the Blackfyre sword it would be Aegon and co. because of the Golden Company situation.

Dark Sister may show up if Bloodraven knows where it is and if he wants one of his kin, Jon or Dany to have it. Or it may be lost forever.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'm happy with R+L=J, but I don't think Jon is the prince who was promised. Firstly, he can't be a prince; if he's legitimate, he has to be a king. Not to mention that he hasn't fulfilled any of the prophecy.

But I do think Jon will be one of the heads of the dragon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm happy with R+L=J, but I don't think Jon is the prince who was promised. Firstly, he can't be a prince; if he's legitimate, he has to be a king. Not to mention that he hasn't fulfilled any of the prophecy.

But I do think Jon will be one of the heads of the dragon.

I think you're using "prince" a little too literally. If Jon doesn't qualify, then Dany doesn't either, surely? She's not a prince either.

And there are numerous ways, reading the prophecy symbolically and not literally, for Jon to ultimately fulfill the prophecy if he hasn't already (and plenty of people think his "death" scene had the basic earmarks to qualify).

There's also the theory that there are multiples AAs (princes, if you will) who will each fulfill the prophecy in his or her own way.

[PatrickStormborn]

I think you're using "prince" a little too literally. If Jon doesn't qualify, then Dany doesn't either, surely? She's not a prince either.

And there are numerous ways, reading the prophecy symbolically and not literally, for Jon to ultimately fulfill the prophecy if he hasn't already (and plenty of people think his "death" scene had the basic earmarks to qualify).

There's also the theory that there are multiples AAs (princes, if you will) who will each fulfill the prophecy in his or her own way.

I think we must have had this debate in every single thread!:P

Aemon says that "prince" was translated from the gender-neutral "dragon". So the prince who was promised can also be a princess. The question, to me, is why they translated it to prince in the first place. I imagine it's because the saviour isn't the true heir.

I don't think Jon's death qualifies as fulfilling the prophecy. The prophecy states that Azor Ahai will be reborn amidst salt and smoke. It doesn't state that Azor Ahai Reborn will be reborn amidst salt and smoke. Furthermore, Jon only died amidst salt and smoke. He didn't become Azor Ahai Reborn at that point.

The "smoke and salt" part of the prophecy is taken too figuratively by many on this site, in my opinion, which includes Drogo's funeral pyre. Stannis says that Melisandre talks of "a hero coming out of the sea", which suggests that the smoke and salt part refers to Dragonstone.

I like the idea of there being three saviours, but I just can't think of who the third would be. Bran, I guess? But then again, it wouldn't make sense to me if there were three saviours and yet one of them rides a dragon which is much bigger than the other two...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think we must have had this debate in every single thread! :P

Aemon says that "prince" was translated from the gender-neutral "dragon". So the prince who was promised can also be a princess. The question, to me, is why they translated it to prince in the first place. I imagine it's because the saviour isn't the true heir.

I don't think Jon's death qualifies as fulfilling the prophecy. The prophecy states that Azor Ahai will be reborn amidst salt and smoke. It doesn't state that Azor Ahai Reborn will be reborn amidst salt and smoke. Furthermore, Jon only died amidst salt and smoke. He didn't become Azor Ahai Reborn at that point.

The "smoke and salt" part of the prophecy is taken too figuratively by many on this site, in my opinion, which includes Drogo's funeral pyre. Stannis says that Melisandre talks of "a hero coming out of the sea", which suggests that the smoke and salt part refers to Dragonstone.

I like the idea of there being three saviours, but I just can't think of who the third would be. Bran, I guess? But then again, it wouldn't make sense to me if there were three saviours and yet one of them rides a dragon which is much bigger than the other two...

If Jon's a Targaryen, he's also a dragon. Just saying. In any case, you're using the world "prince" in terms of, what, legal succession? When in fact you say yourself that the term actually comes from a word translated from "dragon." Why can't someone be a king (or queen) AND a dragon?

Technically speaking, if you want to take that route, we really have no idea under what circumstances Jon was born. Are you sure you want to make such an ironclad qualifier?

Just going around in circles. You want to take everything blunt-force literally and desperately just want it to be Daenerys riding her dragons with ponies and sunshine and I think that's a crock, and not just because I utterly despise her (I've said before that I think she peaked too early and is too obvious; if someone actually has people going around proclaiming that they're a savior, they're not). Same old, same old. Dunno why either of us bothers. ;)

I will ask: Where is Dany's ice? The Prince That Was Promised's song is that of "ice and fire." I see no evidence of ice regarding Dany.

[PatrickStormborn]

If Jon's a Targaryen, he's also a dragon. Just saying. In any case, you're using the world "prince" in terms of, what, legal succession? When in fact you say yourself that the term actually comes from a word translated from "dragon." Why can't someone be a king (or queen) AND a dragon?

There must be a reason why it was translated to prince/ss and not king/queen. Sure, there might not be, but as far as we know there could be.

Technically speaking, if you want to take that route, we really have no idea under what circumstances Jon was born. Are you sure you want to make such an ironclad qualifier?

He was born either before or during the battle at the Tower of Joy. If he was born any earlier, then Lyanna couldn't have died in her "bed of blood" (childbirth).

Just going around in circles. You want to take everything blunt-force literally and desperately just want it to be Daenerys and I think that's a crock, and not just because I utterly despise her (I've said before that I think she peaked too early and is to obvious). Same old, same old. Dunno why either of us bothers. ;)

You're really misunderstanding me. I'm not interpreting the prophecy in a certain way just because I want Dany to be the prince who was promised. I've simply interpreted the prophecy and come to the same conclusion as Maester Aemon. I think most of the people who think Dany isn't the prince who was promised are interpreting it in a biased way. Yes, Dany is my favourite character, but that has nothing to do with my interpretation of the prophecy (although I doubt that will convince you). It just makes me more passionate about it.

The biggest problem I have with anyone but Dany being AAR/TPWWP is that there's simply not enough evidence. No one has fulfilled the prophecy except Daenerys. And what about her "slayer of lies" vision regarding Stannis as Azor Ahai Reborn? Why would she have to slay the lie if she's not actually AAR/TPWWP?

What about Aemon's words? Surely they're significant? If she's not actually TPWWP, his last words were meaningless. What was the point in saying that TPWWP could also be a woman?

And this isn't really a huge issue, but what about the size of the dragons? If Jon is the prince who was promised and Dany is just one of the heads of the dragon, is he going to ride one of the smaller dragons?

I will ask: Where is Dany's ice? The Prince That Was Promised's song is that of "ice and fire."

The song is the battle; ice refers to the others, and fire refers to the dragons.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Finally, there's the dragons' magical ability to detect those of Targaryen blood and the question of why Jon's dreams seem to be leading him to the Winterfell crypts. The former is pretty self-explanatory and may be tested soon on Aegriff. One common explanation of the latter is that Jon needs to visit his mother's grave.

I'm sure there something down there that confirms Jon's parentage; either that, or he's going to be "buried" there, but that experience leads to some revelation.

Lordy, the crypts in Westeros are busy -- Jon at Winterfell, Jaime a Casterly Rock . . .

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There must be a reason why it was translated to prince/ss and not king/queen. Sure, there might not be, but as far as we know there could be.

Again, you're taking it literally. You take these things too literally. :P

The "prince" is a translation from "dragon." That's just how it was translated. You're still thinking about it in terms of actual, literal "titles" and I think that's a misreading. If "prince" is just another word for "dragon," then Jon and (gag) Dany would both be candidates.

He was born either before or during the battle at the Tower of Joy. If he was born any earlier, then Lyanna couldn't have died in her "bed of blood" (childbirth).

I'm not talking about when he was born, I'm talking about how he was born. Rhaegar supposedly thought that this third child could complete his triumvirate; some people think that he became convinced that his child with Lyanna would fulfill the prophecy. Perhaps it's possible he worked to help it along, somewhat. Without knowing the exact circumstances, there's really nothing with which to compare it with Dany's.

You're really misunderstanding me. I'm not interpreting the prophecy in a certain way just because I want Dany to be the prince who was promised. I've simply interpreted the prophecy and come to the same conclusion as Maester Aemon. I think most of the people who think Dany isn't the prince who was promised are interpreting it in a biased way. Yes, Dany is my favourite character, but that has nothing to do with my interpretation of the prophecy (although I doubt that will convince you). It just makes me more passionate about it.

The biggest problem I have with anyone but Dany being AAR/TPWWP is that there's simply not enough evidence. No one has fulfilled the prophecy except Daenerys. And what about her "slayer of lies" vision regarding Stannis as Azor Ahai Reborn? Why would she have to slay the lie if she's not actually AAR/TPWWP?

What about Aemon's words? Surely they're significant? If she's not actually TPWWP, his last words were meaningless. What was the point in saying that TPWWP could also be a woman?

I've said before, numerous times, why I don't think it's Dany. Yes, she fits it. She fits it almost too well — almost like she's the bright shiny thing in the corner grabbing all the attention while the "real" event is going on elsewhere. It's too obvious and heavy-handed and appeals to people who like things handed to them on a silver platter with minimal analysis involved. If it is her, I'll accept it, but I'll always be disappointed in how heavy-handed it was written. And again, like I said, I automatically suspect that anyone with other people — Aemon or Red Priests or Melisandre or Patchface — claiming that they're a savior isn't. Same way I know that if someone says that the Rapture will occur on Feburary 11, it won't.

We already know that Stannis is a fraud; Dany's not telling anyone anything they wouldn't already know. I don't see how her showing that his sword isn't magical has to mean that she's AA or the TPTWP or whatever you want to call it. She could prove that Aegon is a fake, but that would have dynastic implications over who would rule; it would, arguably, have nothing to do with war with the Others.

And this isn't really a huge issue, but what about the size of the dragons? If Jon is the prince who was promised and Dany is just one of the heads of the dragon, is he going to ride one of the smaller dragons?

Who's to say that the dragons really end up meaning anything in the overall fight? Maybe they're just meant to kill each other in Dance of the Dragons, Part Deux. Who's to say that Dany will actually be able to control and command the other riders? I know you think they're Lightbringer, but I disagree. C'est la vie.

The song is the battle; ice refers to the others, and fire refers to the dragons.

Rhaegar = Fire

Lyanna = Ice

Jon = Ice and Fire

[ARYa_Nym]

I've thought about it and if Jon was born after Aegon was killed then he was born a king. Bloodraven calls him king via Mormont's raven. If Rhaegar did change his mind and married Lyanna so that his child could be a prince he couldn't have anticipated the sack. Dany was born a princess and she later woke dragons from stone.

I don't see another character being able to wake dragons unless it's somehow possible to wake dragons that have been turned into stone by greyscale or something. I don't think that's likely. If say as some theories say Jamie or Jon wake the dragon in themselves that would only be a singular dragon and not plural.

The only thing I think would lean in Jon's direction is him indirectly being associated with "promise me," by Lyanna.

I think that Dany is AA/PWWP and Bran is the Last Hero but Rhaegar did at least get it right that one of his children would be a head of the dragon.

[Dragon greyscale]

Hey guys, long time lurker first time poster here and this thread seems the right place. I only read the books once and i'm an HBO bandwagoner.

So here's my take:

The series is obviously popular because of grrm's ambiguous style. This inherently makes it a target for (crackpot) theories... So although i thoroughly enjoy reading tese threads and all the effort people put into "proving" a theory, i'd be bummed if there was a clear cut resolution on the R+L=J theory or, for that matter, whether Sandor is still alive. I quite like the non-resolution/strongly hinted passage with the gravedigger. Why does it have to become more explicit than it is? Same for R+L=J thing.

All of which brings me to a semi-trollish yet seriously intended point: I fear the day grrm (or someone else) finishes the series. Many ambiguities would get lost which would take away the whole charm. What can we post when jon's parentage is revealed? Or when the prophecies are revealed? Tilt your head if you want to see a prophecy you like. If it's made too clear then we don't have to tilt anymore.

Non-closure is the heart of discussion.

What do you guys think?

[Dragon greyscale]

Hey guys, long time lurker first time poster here and this thread seems the right place. I only read the books once and i'm an HBO bandwagoner.

So here's my take:

The series is obviously popular because of grrm's ambiguous style. This inherently makes it a target for (crackpot) theories... So although i thoroughly enjoy reading tese threads and all the effort people put into "proving" a theory, i'd be bummed if there was a clear cut resolution on the R+L=J theory or, for that matter, whether Sandor is still alive. I quite like the non-resolution/strongly hinted passage with the gravedigger. Why does it have to become more explicit than it is? Same for R+L=J thing.

All of which brings me to a semi-trollish yet seriously intended point: I fear the day grrm (or someone else) finishes the series. Many ambiguities would get lost which would take away the whole charm. What can we post when jon's parentage is revealed? Or when the prophecies are revealed? Tilt your head if you want to see a prophecy you like. If it's made too clear then we don't have to tilt anymore.

Non-closure is the heart of discussion.

What do you guys think?