The specifics of Joff's....digestion problems....

[I'm Unsullied]

I'm trying to piece together just how the poison was transmitted to Joff at his wedding. This is what I have figured out....

- Sansa held the poison gem in her hair net (unknowingly).

- The QoT messes with Sansa's hair/net at the start of the feast. I'm assuming she's either taking the poison pill out or getting it loose for later use.

- Joff drinks from his cup and eats a bit of the pigeon pie just before his throat closes shut for good.

So what I don't know is was the poison gem put into the pie or the wine? And exactly who put it in and at what time?

Anyway I can't WAIT to see this scene played out on the HBO series!!!

[jessalyn]

It's not really certain if it's but in the wine or the pie. It was the Queen of Thorns, but that's from Baelish's mouth, so you never know...

It's the "strangler" poison Cressen discusses in the prologue, though. And that was in wine.

I'm going to go with the wine though, as with pie it wouldn't have distributed evenly, giving a chance that Joff might not get it.

[I'm Unsullied]

Yeah I'm leaning wine too - wasn't it Tyrion's pie anyway?

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

If the Queen of Thorns did poison the wine, the chalice that Joffrey drank from was the same as Margaery's, the Queen wasn't likely to poison her own granddaughter who she seems to care about, unless of course Margaery was involved in the plot,

[jessalyn]

If the Queen of Thorns did poison the wine, the chalice that Joffrey drank from was the same as Margaery's, the Queen wasn't likely to poison her own granddaughter who she seems to care about, unless of course Margaery was involved in the plot,

This is true, but remember that the chalice was away from Margaery when this whole thing happened. QoT could have easily poisoned it when Joff was making the ridiculous scene of Tyrion...

Littlefinger also mentioned how the dwarf riders were also his idea. I am sure the QoT also knew this. It was such a huge distraction and gave them all the perfect coverup to put the blame on Tyrion.

Stories within stories...!

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

I think she did do it, still think putting it in the shared chalice would be a silly idea, too much of a risk, no?

[zmflavius]

I think she did do it, still think putting it in the shared chalice would be a silly idea, too much of a risk, no?

Didn't Littlefinger raise the possibility that Margaery could have been told to not drink after a certain moment?

[Anvik]

I'm sure the QoT was a carrier of the poison at some point, but I think she probably transferred it to someone else to drop it in the wine, she's a little too old and probably a little shaky (remember Cressen having the same difficulty?)

[Lions-and-Roses]

It's not really certain if it's but in the wine or the pie. It was the Queen of Thorns, but that's from Baelish's mouth, so you never know...

But how would he have known that she messed with her hair net...?

[jessalyn]

But how would he have known that she messed with her hair net...?

Exactly. I am sure that QoT planned this with Baelish's help, and Baelish planted the poison hairnet for Sansa, and told QoT that's where the poison was...

Not sure what Baelish told, or didn't, to QoT though. He doesn't seem to be the type to divulge all his secrets to anyone...

[FanTasy]

If you think means - motive - opportunity ... Tyrion is a strong contender - if the wine was poisoned.

Means: those little bottles he took after visiting and shaving Pycelle

Motive: Joffrey set him up when trying to murder Bran, humiliated Tyrion deeply at his wedding with Sansa, humiliated Tyrion just before Joffrey was killed

Opportunity: Tyrion was close by and there was a witness who said she saw him drop something in Joffrey's cup

But somehow I don't think Tyrion did it. I think it was a Tyrell & Littlefinger set-up.

Means: poison could be obtained

Motive: freeing Margaery and enable her to wed Tommen instead, in a marriage who would not be consummated during the first years and so there would be other options

Opportunity: Lady Olenna taking the poison and giving it to Margaery or her brother, who were close to Joffrey.

^{Edited for ADWD-spoiler}

[jessalyn]

If you think means - motive - opportunity ... Tyrion is a strong contender - if the wine was poisoned.

Means: those little bottles he took after visiting and shaving Pycelle

Motive: Joffrey set him up when trying to murder Bran, humiliated Tyrion deeply at his wedding with Sansa, humiliated Tyrion just before Joffrey was killed

Opportunity: Tyrion was close by and there was a witness who said she saw him drop something in Joffrey's cup

Right, what about Sansa's Florian? How would he come into all of this. Peter knew about him, and was the one who used him to get Sansa out of the castle. How would he come into the Tyrion plot?

Also, it's mentioned that Tyrion poisoned Cersei (but not to death) just to keep her out of his hair for awhile.

But somehow I don't think Tyrion did it. I think it was a Tyrell & Littlefinger set-up.

Means: poison could be obtained

Motive: freeing Margaery and enable her to wed Tommen instead, in a marriage who would not be consummated during the first years and so there would be other options

Opportunity: Lady Olenna taking the poison and giving it to Margaery or her brother, who were close to Joffrey.

I think it was QoT, as that's what Littlefinger said. And QoT knew about the hairnet, which the fool insisted Sansa wear that night.

There are no links to these characters and Tyrion, at all. No one mentions or ever meets one another. I mean, it's still possible, knowing GRRM, of course...

I also like the fact that if Tyrion didn't do it, it means the lie that he told Jaime when he was escaping from the dungeons, will just be as hard and horrid as the one Jaime told Tyrion when he was younger...

[FanTasy]

Right, what about Sansa's Florian? How would he come into all of this. Peter knew about him, and was the one who used him to get Sansa out of the castle. How would he come into the Tyrion plot?

Also, it's mentioned that Tyrion poisoned Cersei (but not to death) just to keep her out of his hair for awhile.

There is a quote in AGOT about who would resort to poisoning. I think it was a conversation between Pycelle and Eddard.

Poisoning is a tool used by the weak and craven, or something like that was said.

That could apply to Tyrion and Littlefinger. I'll stay away from this because of spoilers for AFFC and for ADWD.

In ASOS Tyrion administered a substance to Cersei to get her temporarily out of the way.

Of course that could just be what he collected when he took the bottles out of Pycelle's room. And he probably wasn't planning to kill her.

But it could have opened some doors in his mind.

The hairnet. There was definitely some purpose in giving it to Sansa. Ser Dontos was paid by Littlefinger.

It could have been a set up to blame Sansa, but I doubt that was and is in Littlefingers interest.

No one tried to blame Sansa afterwards or tried to re-collect the hairnet, if I recall correctly.

I think that poor Ser Dontos was set up to be the fall guy.

If something went wrong he was the best scapegoat you could think of, after what Joffrey did to him.

I'm curious if we will ever know who was to blame for Joffrey's death - and if so how this will be revealed.

And maybe he did choke eating Tyrions pigeon pie :frown5:

[Crown]

I believe it was Littlefinger with the help of the Queen of Thorns, Margaery Tyrell and ser Dontos, and perhaps more players. But the thing is, what are Littlefinger his motives?

A Feast for Crows, spoilers:

Before Lysa Tully her death, it is explained that SHE killed Jon Arryn for Littlefinger. Why? Why did Littlefinger want Jon Arryn death? Why did he ask Lysa to send Catelyn a letter that she suspects the Lannisters of killing Jon Arryn? Littlefinger knew King Robert would ask Eddard Stark as his hand, why did he want Eddard to get to Kingslanding? Did he want to get rid off Eddard so he could get close to Catelyn again? I don't quite understand his motives. But I guess that's what George Martin wants. Just a simple yes or no. Will his motives be explained later in A Feast for Crows or A Dance with Dragons, or is it still unknown why he does the things he does.

[FanTasy]

I believe it was Littlefinger with the help of the Queen of Thorns, Margaery Tyrell and ser Dontos, and perhaps more players. But the thing is, what are Littlefinger his motives?

A Feast for Crows, spoilers:

Before Lysa Tully her death, it is explained that SHE killed Jon Arryn for Littlefinger. Why? Why did Littlefinger want Jon Arryn death? Why did he ask Lysa to send Catelyn a letter that she suspects the Lannisters of killing Jon Arryn? Littlefinger knew King Robert would ask Eddard Stark as his hand, why did he want Eddard to get to Kingslanding? Did he want to get rid off Eddard so he could get close to Catelyn again? I don't quite understand his motives. But I guess that's what George Martin wants. Just a simple yes or no. Will his motives be explained later in A Feast for Crows or A Dance with Dragons, or is it still unknown why he does the things he does.

What does Littlefinger want? Power. He uses all means to obtain power, including marriages.

[jessalyn]

Argh, temptation to push little button! But I'm still reading AFfC....

As for Tyrion being a craven? I wouldn't really think that after what he did in A Clash of Kings. He seemed to really buckle down and clean things up, and actually did some of the best thinkerings. And I believe the quote was saying "Poison is a woman's weapon."

And we know that Lysa was the one who killed Jon Arryn, for instance...

[Crown]

What does Littlefinger want? Power. He uses all means to obtain power, including marriages.

I figured that.

A Feast for Crows, spoilers:

But what did he actually achieve by getting Jon Arryn killed and by betraring Eddard Stark? He created a war. Perhaps he needed to war to gain more power. But his actions and motives are actually really vague. Because I believe he had more power when he was in Roberts / Joffry's small council than he has now in the Vale.

[FanTasy]

I figured that.

A Feast for Crows, spoilers:

But what did he actually achieve by getting Jon Arryn killed and by betraring Eddard Stark? He created a war. Perhaps he needed to war to gain more power. But his actions and motives are actually really vague. Because I believe he had more power when he was in Roberts / Joffry's small council than he has now in the Vale.

I have no idea how a spoiler is made, so I am being a bit cryptic, sorry. Sometimes you can't marry the one you want to obtain more power because there is someone in the way.

[jessalyn]

I have no idea how a spoiler is made, so I am being a bit cryptic, sorry. Sometimes you can't marry the one you want to obtain more power because there is someone in the way.

You just use [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] (without the spaces, obviously).

[Crown]

Argh, temptation to push little button! But I'm still reading AFfC....

As for Tyrion being a craven? I wouldn't really think that after what he did in A Clash of Kings. He seemed to really buckle down and clean things up, and actually did some of the best thinkerings. And I believe the quote was saying "Poison is a woman's weapon."

And we know that Lysa was the one who killed Jon Arryn, for instance...

I'm on the chapter were Sansa Stark is called Alayne in the title of the chapter, so if you reached that you can check the spoilers.

I have no idea how a spoiler is made, so I am being a bit cryptic, sorry. Sometimes you can't marry the one you want to obtain more power because there is someone in the way.

Spoilers are made with [ spoiler ] in front of the text and [ /spoiler ] at the end, without the spaces.