Who are the real Villains?

[zalim]

Littlefinger

Varys

Grand Maester

Cersei

Jamie (but now he is changing)

Tywin

Freys

Boltons

Others

Greyjoys

Slavers

Hound

quit a lot of them actually !

[ghost the direwolf]

Gregore Clegane

the Frey

The Bolton

Euron Greyjoy

and the half maester who created UnGregor.

[Erinne]

Yea, cause he really showed regret after what he did and he was a really nice guy :rolleyes: . Give me a break, I don't consider him a villain but he wasn't a saint either so I hope he brutally dies probably by Lady Stoneheart most likely

When did I ever say he was a saint or a nice guy? I'm just saying it's stupid to claim he's some kind of great villain because he was the one who carried out Joff's order to execute Ned.

[Hear Us Roar]

Is it horrible that I love all these characters (except Frey and Aerys)?

Nah.

And IMO Roose doesn't really encourage Ramsay, he just let's him be. I feel he is indifferent to him TBH

that indifference is an act imo. He does like to be overt with his malice

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Littlefinger

Varys

Grand Maester

Cersei

Jamie (but now he is changing)

Tywin

Freys

Boltons

Others

Greyjoys

Slavers

Hound

I corrected that for you ;)

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

One of the only TRUE villians is [also, one of my fav characters], is Euron Greyjoy. You will all see when he is sitting on the Iron Throne at the end of the series :evil laugh:

[boojam]

So.... are the Others the 'unreal' villains?

[Hossbeast]

There are no villains in the series, IMHO, just like there aren't any true heroes. The only real candidates are The Others, but my money is on some kind of sympathetic reveal regarding them from Sam.

[thetitansbastard]

There's a ton of villians in this series. I can't imagine how anyone could not characterize those mentioned in this thread as villianous. Absurd IMO. Evil is a different story. Ramsay Bolton, Euron Greyjoy and Gregor Clegane are the only major characters I can think of that fit that bill. I don't think one can dispute otherwise. Possibly Randyll Tarly as well but we don't know as much about him

[The King in the South]

Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish - he would be a tragic figure if he had any redeeming and sympathetic attributes, which he doesn't. He is a rotten and despicable manipulator who uses people as if they were tissues. I doubt he even has a long term goal.

Lady Lysa Tully Arryn - in many ways a good match for Littlefinger, although her case for being a tragic figure is much stronger than his. A truly destructive and self-destructive person.

Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Mandon Moore - your vanilla variety bootlicker sadist. Trant actually caused some damage, unlike his sworn brother, but otherwise they're so much alike that I don't doubt that Trant will take over Moore's role in the TV series.

The Lannisters: Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey - talk about damaged goods. A good argument can be made that all three generations of Lannisters are still attempting to heal the damage caused by the failure of Tywin's father Tytos at earning his son's admiration and respect. Tywin is so utterly scared of the idea of not earning respect from others that he has let go of anything that could support true respect towards him and learned to rely on fear and gold instead.

Maybe I should name Tytos to this list. He is certainly a top contender for "people who caused lots of damage indirectly and unwillingly".

Anyway, all three Lannisters are sadists with little understanding of respect, love or compassion, although each successive generation is that much worse at hiding it or functioning as a person.

Melisandre and Stannis Baratheon - I mention them together because it is by now obvious that Stannis is very much a thrall of his own needs of acceptance and Melisandre's promises and sorcery. More out of lack of moral courage than out of belief, Stannis is in his own way as fanatical and destructive as Melisandre.

Most or even all Greyjoys - although they are a complex, interesting case that will obviously be developed in the next few books

The Kettleblack brothers - just your run-of-the-mill unworthy, backstabbing mercenaries, but they are in a position that allows them to stab very deep indeed.

Sybel Spicer - the classical cut-throath social climber who has no regard for honor or family

Walder Frey - he has let his frustrations get the better of him and lost all track of moral values

Many of the Night's Watch renegades - although IMO the true villain is the lack of sense of the Night's Watch vows. It is time for a major questioning of the Watch's role and purpose, and particularly of their vows, mainly when it comes to lifetime duty and other unnecessary restrictions.

Grand Maester Pycelle - a bootlicker with no morals and a position of power. As dangerous as he is despicable

Lord Janos Slynt - your run-of-the-mill henchman, with a thin veneer of respectability that unfortunately sometimes fools the wrong people

Ser Gregor Clegane - the guy is just not right

Pending judgement: Lady of Thorns, Lord Mace Tyrell, Lord Doran Martell, Varys the Spider, Margaery Tyrell, Ser Loras Tyrell, the Sand Snakes. I don't feel like I know whether to root for or against them yet.

On the fence - Ser Alliser Thorne. He seems to be more bitter and vengeful than properly evil, But he sure makes for a dangerous enemy.

ETA: How could I forget the Boltons? Ramsay is an even worse monster than Joffrey. Lord Roose is the same, only far more skilled at hiding it.

You list the Kettleblacks, but not guys like Bronn or Brown Ben Plumm or basically any other sellsword out there?

As for your points on Melisandre, if you are going to use that to justify her as a villian you could call the following people villians as well considering they have all used violence/manipulation/etc to achieve their own ends.

Arya

Tyrion

The Hound

The Tyrells and their Vassals

The Karstarks

Hoster Tully

90% of the Wildlings

90% of the Ironborn

Dozens of others, but I don't really feel like listing them. Must as well put 90% of the Lord of Westeroes for that matter.

I just don't see how Arya killing a man because someone told her he was bad is any less evil than Melisandre killing a man because her gods told her too?

If we want to go by todays standards, pretty much everybody in Westeroes is a villian, except for a select few, which is I think we should limit the "villian" category to the true monsters like Ramsay, Gregor, the Blood Mummers, etc

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Anyway, all three Lannisters are sadists with little understanding of respect, love or compassion, although each successive generation is that much worse at hiding it or functioning as a person.

I don't agree that Cersei or Tywin are sadists. Murderers, certainly, and completely devoid of compassion, but I never got the sense that they got their yayas from killing or torturing people. They did what they thought they had to do and with complete disregard for right or wrong, but that is not the same thing as sadism. If Cersei were a sadist, she would be down in the dungeons with Qyburn (clearly an actual sadist, even if he wants to wrap it up in the cloak of "research"), watching him torture people. Instead she actively flinches when she thinks of the people she has handed over to him, and has to redirect her thoughts. Bad, yes, but not sadistic.

Cersei to me is simply the prototypical sociopath. If you read this description of sociopathy: http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html ...it suits her to a T.

Tywin to me is more complex and cannot be easily pigeonholed into a psychological category. He seems to have a grasp of right and wrong, in that he tries to always send underlings to do his dirtiest work and keep his own activities and hands as clean as possible. Gregor, Walder Frey, the Boltons, Amory Lorch ...many have taken the blame and the fall for Tywin's plans and orders. So he is not the same as Cersei, he is much more cautious and aware of his image and how he will be perceived by people.

On Joff, I agree with the characterization of sadism; he clearly gets a thrill from killing, maiming and causing others pain and death.

[Grail King]

I'm not sure I see any characters as true villians. <Snip>

I also don't really see Tywin Lannister as a villan. He was a brilliant ruler and general. He was also generally slighted by the kings that constantly helped. Sure he had the Targaryan children killed. But I really put that more on Robert. Furthermore how come Robert Baratheon isn't on this list.

Robert Baratheon beggared the realm with foolish spending with out a care. He calls it counting coppers. Although Joffrey is not Roberts real son, he still raised him and Joffrey is a monster. Robert basically wants to kill off the entire Targaryan House. He sends assassins after 13 year old Danerays. Maybe Tywin ordered the Targaryan children killed. But Robert would have done it to. Tywin just did what he had to do. Instead of ruling the realm Robert drinks constantly and whores and fathers bastards that he only acknowledges if he must. For instance Edric Storm who was born of a Florent I believe that he knocks up in Stannis's wedding bed. He basically does what he wants when he wants it. I don't really see him as being that big of a step up from the mad king.

I don't like Walder Frey. But I have to admit that Robb Stark really slighted House Frey when he married Jeyne Westerling. I mean what a stupid move. Walder was definitley justified in switching sides over something like this.

I don't really consider Varys or Littlefinger to be villans at all. Just great strategists with their own agenda's. I can't wait to see what either of them has planned.

Roose is a Turncloak as well as Ramsey and they are both villans. They had no good reason to turn on the Starks except for a power grab.

Cersei may very well be a villan also. How ever I think she believe that she is doing the best thing she can for House Lannister. I find her highly entertaining.

I don't know your definition of Villain is, but most listed fit the bill, so far I'm on the fence for Mellisandre.

Tywin was an evil MF, he had houses razed if someone did not agree with him, sends men out to rape pillage and burn to sow fear into innocent people and totally berates and scorned his son and I might add try to orchestrate his son's death under a war condition.

Robert Baratheon - not evil, but misguided and guilty of not being a good King or Father Although Joffrey is not Roberts real son, Cersei raised Joffrey as a monster. Robert basically wants to kill off the entire Targaryan House ( based on unknown knowledge that we don't even have) His bethroed was "Kidnapped" and died, his best friend's father and brother were evily slained. He sends assassins after 13 year old Danerays, Yet he tried to repeal it admitting to his friend that the King was wrong and only the Hand and Barriston had it right, an evil man would not repeal or admit failure.

Walder Frey: Robb Stark really slighted House Frey when he married Jeyne Westerling Was it on purpose?, no Robb unfourtunetly was wounded and most likely drugged and not coherant enough to see what happened until the damage was done, he appologize to House Frey offer another good marrigae proposal (not as good as QON) with a strong house, removing Frey's support neither evil or wrong it's justified where Walder became evil is that he accepted the proposal set up a wedding to totally wipe out a youth his mother and the other sworn houses and you can add the dick of Casterly Rock and Boltons to this also.

I don't really consider Varys or Littlefinger to be villans at all. What do you call killing children, having tounges cut out and putting them in the line of danger? Setting up rumours planting false evidence, placing young children in whorehouses and whipping them until broken that results in thousand of innocent people dying or maimed including Brandon, Robb, Catelyn, Eddard, Joffery (not that I feel bad for this little shit)King Robert, Ser Hugh, Dontos, Kevan Lannister etc. framing innocent people wheather we like the chracters or not including most just mentioned along with Sansa Stark, Tyrion Lannister

[Sun]

There is no shortage of villains in ASoIaF, the most obvious of which are:

Cersie, Joff, Tywin, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Most of the Freys, Euron Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, Lysa Tully, Littlefinger, Aeryn Targaryan, Rattleshirt, Janos Slynt, the Mountain, Lady Stoneheart (the name says it all, really), most of Slavers Bey.

Characters that are guilty of villainous acts, but are not necessarily villains:

Varys, Dany (Let's not go into this here, just check any Dany thread for which acts), Mellisander, Stannis, Jaime, Tyrion, Sandor, Bran (I consider hijacking a sentient being's consciousness a villainous act), Queen of Thorns, Loras (Killed 4 knights for no reason), the 4 NW who stabbed Jon, Bronn, Pycell.

Possible future villains:

Bloodraven, Dany, Bran,

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

There is no shortage of villains in ASoIaF, the most obvious of which are:

Cersie, Joff, Tywin, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Most of the Freys, Euron Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, Lysa Tully, Littlefinger, Aeryn Targaryan, Rattleshirt, Janos Slynt, the Mountain, Lady Stoneheart (the name says it all, really), most of Slavers Bey.

Wow wow. Don't you think you're pushing too hard? MOST of the Freys? We know but a hanful of the Freys. Cersei? Don't you think she should be with the "Characters that are guilty of villainous acts, but are not necessarily villains"? THEON is a villian? LYSA is a villian? SLYNT is a villian? JOFF is a villian? Dude, you're way off on some of these...

[Sun]

Wow wow. Don't you think you're pushing too hard? MOST of the Freys? We know but a hanful of the Freys. Cersei? Don't you think she should be with the "Characters that are guilty of villainous acts, but are not necessarily villains"? THEON is a villian? LYSA is a villian? SLYNT is a villian? JOFF is a villian? Dude, you're way off on some of these...

I can only speak of the Freys we've seen in the books, and most of them are villains in my book.

There's an argument to be had about Theon, I give you that, as to the rest... frankly, the fact that you don't consider Joff, Cersie, Lysa and Slynt villains seems odd to me.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

I can only speak of the Freys we've seen in the books, and most of them are villains in my book.

There's an argument to be had about Theon, I give you that, as to the rest... frankly, the fact that you don't consider Joff, Cersie, Lysa and Slynt villains seems odd to me.

For Cersei, I'll redirect you to my explanation post about how she isn't evil at all: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/59533-the-official-cersei-lannister-appreciation-thread-ii/page__view__findpost__p__2819975

[The King in the South]

There is no shortage of villains in ASoIaF, the most obvious of which are:

Cersie, Joff, Tywin, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Most of the Freys, Euron Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Victarion Greyjoy, Lysa Tully, Littlefinger, Aeryn Targaryan, Rattleshirt, Janos Slynt, the Mountain, Lady Stoneheart (the name says it all, really), most of Slavers Bey.

Characters that are guilty of villainous acts, but are not necessarily villains:

Varys, Dany (Let's not go into this here, just check any Dany thread for which acts), Mellisander, Stannis, Jaime, Tyrion, Sandor, Bran (I consider hijacking a sentient being's consciousness a villainous act), Queen of Thorns, Loras (Killed 4 knights for no reason), the 4 NW who stabbed Jon, Bronn, Pycell.

Possible future villains:

Bloodraven, Dany, Bran,

How is Janos Slynt a villian? Sure he's a crook, but so are most people in Westeroes. The worst thing he's done is betray somebody for money, where as there are plenty of people who have killed several innocent people that you are seemingly forgetting...

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

OMG! King in the South? Can I steal you picture. PLEASEEEE :P

[zalim]

I corrected that for you ;)

because these villains are dead or going to die? or because you are a fan of those villains? ;)

[The King in the South]

OMG! King in the South? Can I steal you picture. PLEASEEEE :P

Haha, sure! I'm just using it for the holidays. :)

I think I found it by typing game of thrones christmas into google images :wacko: