A crazy theory on Tyrion

[Ygrain]

Once I learned that Aerys had a crush on Joanna Lannister, I started to ponder if Tywin possibly could have been literal when he claimed that Tyrion was his son only because he couldn't prove otherwise. If Tyrion was fathered by Aerys, it would give Tywin a truly profound reason to turn against the Targaryens, as well as somewhat explain the way he treats Tyrion. It has always struck me as rather weird that someone as shrewd as Tywin is unable to see Tyrion's potential.

However, if Tyrion should be the son of Aeyrs, there is one thing that does not fit, and it is the same that questions Tywin as the biological father: the mismatched colours. The very pale blond he has could be both from the Lannisters and Targaryens, but where did the black come from? The light colours are caused by the pairing of recessive genes, meaning, two blond parents cannot possibly pass on genes for black hair to their offspring, and I don't think the genetic disorder which hampers growth can affect this in any way, though I'm no expert. On the other hand, GRRM apparently knows a thing or two about genetics, so could there actually be a clue all along?

Also, another thing which comes to mind: the Targaryen prince Duncan the Small, the one who fell in love with Jenny of Oldstones and died during the fire of Summerhall. Was he called Small because Duncan the Tall was so tall that he actually dwarfed any man of usual size, or is this a hint at the genetic disorder running in the Targaryren line? - Not extremely unlikely, given the interbreeding.

Then, of course, there is the matter of timeline, which I admit am totally hopeless at. Is it actually possible that Aerys fathered Tyrion? And if not Aerys, then who?

[kissdbyfire]

.However, if Tyrion should be the son of Aeyrs, there is one thing that does not fit, and it is the same that questions Tywin as the biological father: the mismatched colours. The very pale blond he has could be both from the Lannisters and Targaryens, but where did the black come from? The light colours are caused by the pairing of recessive genes, meaning, two blond parents cannot possibly pass on genes for black hair to their offspring, and I don't think the genetic disorder which hampers growth can affect this in any way, though I'm no expert. On the other hand, GRRM apparently knows a thing or two about genetics, so could there actually be a clue all along?

I don't think Tyrion is Aerys' son... But two blond parents can have a dark-haired child; and one of Aegon IV's bastards had mismatched eyes - I think it was Shiera Seastar...

[Sidonie]

Also, another thing which comes to mind: the Targaryen prince Duncan the Small, the one who fell in love with Jenny of Oldstones and died during the fire of Summerhall. Was he called Small because Duncan the Tall was so tall that he actually dwarfed any man of usual size, or is this a hint at the genetic disorder running in the Targaryren line? - Not extremely unlikely, given the interbreeding.

Yeah, this is sort of a mystery. We just don't know if Duncan the Small was a dwarf. But we do know he was called the "Prince of Dragonflies." This makes me think he was too small to be a "dragon," so people called him a dragonfly, lol.

[DornishHighlander]

I think the fact GRRM makes a point to mention Tyrion's eyes frequently are important. The only other person in the universe is Shiera Seastar one of the Great Bastards. It's a very rare genetic mutation and to have a common ancestor would make the mutation more likely.

[Pliskin]

Yeah, this is sort of a mystery. We just don't know if Duncan the Small was a dwarf. But we do know he was called the "Prince of Dragonflies." This makes me think he was too small to be a "dragon," so people called him a dragonfly, lol.

He wasn't specially small. It's just that he was named after Duncan the Tall. And so, to distinguish them, he ended up with "Duncan the Small".

And he was well loved by the people. "Prince of the Dragonflies" wasn't a sobriquet.

[Neo]

I have always seen the reasoning in the 'Tyrion = Targaryen' theories, and in ADWD GRRM did make the effort to highlight Aerys' obsession with Joanna Lannister when Ser Barristan mentioned it to Daenerys. It could just be another false clue intended to create mere speculation, but it does seem possible that Aerys could have raped Joanna, especially when you factor in Aerys' personality and Tywin's utter disdain for Tyrion.

Tyrion's dwarfism and mis-matched eyes could be a result of side-effects in the womb after a failed abortion attempt. However, despite nothing being certain in ASoIaF, I do see this as more of a crackpot theory, and I would say I'm about 80% sure that Tyrion is Tywin's son. Jon being a Targaryen descendent is enough for the story; I don't think you need two main characters to be revealed as Targaryens. That might be overkill.

[Alaric Storm]

im pretty sure Tyrion is Tywins son too. on the other hand.....you dont say no to the king and Joanna wouldn't have a choice if he lusted for her so much. it would just be chalked up as yet another insult from Aerys to Tywin and further attribute to why Tywin let his troops sack Kings Landing so hard.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think that any of Tywin's kids are Aerys', let alone Tyrion. I think maybe people feel like they have to shoehorn it in there if Tyrion's going to be a dragon-rider, but I just don't see it. If nothing else, it completely destroys the complicated father-son dynamic that Tyrion and Tywin have, it undermines the assertion that "Tyrion is Tywin's son," and it gives Tywin an "out" (he didn't really father the dwarf whom he hates) that frankly I don't want to give him.

Like I said, I don't think that any of Tywin's kids were fathered by anyone but Tywin, but if you want an "Aerys had kids with Joanna" theory that actually makes a lot more intuitive sense, I'd take a closer look at the twins.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I don't see it. What would be the point of it now that Tywin is dead? The revelation now would not have the same impact. But, who knows?

[Ygrain]

I don't think Tyrion is Aerys' son... But two blond parents can have a dark-haired child; and one of Aegon IV's bastards had mismatched eyes - I think it was Shiera Seastar...

Not under the basic Mendelian genetics: aa + aa = aa, there's nowhere to obtain the dominant variant of the gene from. It works the other way round: blackhaired parents can easily have blond children, once the recessive gene was introduced into both lineages: Aa + Aa = AA(pure black, children always blackhaired, no matter what variant they inherit from the other parent), Aa (blackhaired but passing on the blonde gene), or aa (lo! a blondie!). The Aa = blackhaired is what brings Jon Arryn and Ned to the conclusion that Robert can't have fathered Cersei's children.

- I just hope the pattern applies fully to hair colour as well, since the book example is for brown and blue eyes, and here I've almost exhausted my knowledge of genetics :-) However, I'll venture a little guess: as I looked up Shiera, she had eyes of blue and green. The green colour genes do not manifest in such a simple way (observation from my family, where grandfather had brown eyes, grandmother green, and my mother ended up with eyes which looked light brown but were, in fact, green at the rim and brown around the pupil) but I think I can safely bet that both the green and blue colour already had to be there in order to manifest, and that the disorder only caused the genes to be paired differently in various parts of the body.

Tyrion's dwarfism and mis-matched eyes could be a result of side-effects in the womb after a failed abortion attempt. However, despite nothing being certain in ASoIaF, I do see this as more of a crackpot theory, and I would say I'm about 80% sure that Tyrion is Tywin's son. Jon being a Targaryen descendent is enough for the story; I don't think you need two main characters to be revealed as Targaryens. That might be overkill.

An abortion attempt can cause physical or mental impairment but not genetic mismatch, but yeah... too many hidden Targaryens around :-)

[Ygrain]

I don't see it. What would be the point of it now that Tywin is dead? The revelation now would not have the same impact. But, who knows?

Tyrion wouldn't be a kinslayer.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tyrion wouldn't be a kinslayer.

But perception's reality, there. Tyrion's viewed as a kinslayer and that's not going to change. The "kinslayer curse" is kind of self-fulfilling: People drive out and punish kinslayers because they're "cursed," but it's this disdain and societal shunning that are probably the root of said "curse."

[Lord of Cheese]

It would be kind of weird to start having a bunch of Targaryens coming out of the woodwork all of a sudden. What Tyron lacks in appearance to the Lannisters he makes up for with being more like Tywin than any of Tywins other children.

Although, the other thing that could be added to the mismatched eyes is Tyrions fascination with Dragons. But that could be because he is learned and therefore has a deeper appreciation for the grandeur of the dragons.

I can't even begin to imagine what witty remark Tryion would make if he found out he was a Targ. Lol.

[Jory]

If Tyrion winds up being a secret Targaryen it will totally destroy whatever meaning his character has beyond "smooth-talking misognyist". He is Tywin more than Jaime or Cersei ever were, but Tywin never realizes that, and there's the tragedy. Tyrion doesn't realize that he's following in Tywin's footsteps, either. Both serve as markedly effective Hands willing to do terrible things but never for their own sake. Both like whores. Even the loss of their "one true love" is a parallel.

Do you really think Martin would sacrifice the tragic main - and, honestly, the most interesting - part of the arc and instead make him a scion of the wonderful super Targaryen dragon family ^_^ ? Give me a break. Tyrion is Tywin's son. Anything less is, frankly, something out of a soap opera.

edit: Apple Martini dished out some wisdom better than I could've, that's what I get for reading the first post and not the rest.

[Ygrain]

From the point of story-telling, making Tyrion a hidden Targ may not be clever but the damned genetics keep boggling me. Unless... a double twist. Tywin suspected Aerys, knew about Shiera, and therefore THOUGHT Tyrion wasn't his. - lol!, just kidding.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

From the point of story-telling, making Tyrion a hidden Targ may not be clever but the damned genetics keep boggling me. Unless... a double twist. Tywin suspected Aerys, knew about Shiera, and therefore THOUGHT Tyrion wasn't his. - lol!, just kidding.

If Tywin had any idea that Tyrion really wasn't his, he would never have put on for so long that he was. He would've used any excuse he had to disown the Imp.

[Jory]

From the point of story-telling, making Tyrion a hidden Targ may not be clever but the damned genetics keep boggling me. Unless... a double twist. Tywin suspected Aerys, knew about Shiera, and therefore THOUGHT Tyrion wasn't his. - lol!, just kidding.

I really don't think Martin sat down consulting Punnett squares when he wrote his fantasy world or whatever, so "genetics" is sort of meaningless, honestly.

[Silmarien]

I really don't think Martin sat down consulting Punnett squares when he wrote his fantasy world or whatever, so "genetics" is sort of meaningless, honestly.

Um, except he made the whole deal about Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella being not Robert's kids....so GRRM DID make his story about genetics, it was a major plot point.

And why give Tyrion one black eye, unless it meant something? Just a quirk?

[Zmeischa]

Um, except he made the whole deal about Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella being not Robert's kids....so GRRM DID make his story about genetics, it was a major plot point.

It wasn't he who made a great deal about it, it was Ned :). And Stannis.

Joffrey's genetics is important to the plot, but it is not important to the understanding of his character. In Tyrion case it is important, though. I agree with those who say that if he were Targeran, it would make his whole relationship with Tywin trite and meaningless.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Um, except he made the whole deal about Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella being not Robert's kids....so GRRM DID make his story about genetics, it was a major plot point.

And why give Tyrion one black eye, unless it meant something? Just a quirk?

I think the answer is, "Genetics matter when Martin wants them to, and behave how Martin wants them to."

I have no idea why Tyrion has only eye that's a different color from the other one. I don't know what it means, if it means anything. I do know that Shiera Seastar had a blue eye and a green eye, not a black one, if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it. ;)