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Angalin

R+L=J v.18

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Do we have anymore to contribute to this theory? Or are we going to repeat the debates that have already filled the previous 17 threads?

Just my 2 cents... New people discover this theory by reading here all the time. It's available for those who want to ask questions or discuss certain points of evidence or opinion. So, yes, I think there is more to contribute to this theory as new fans want to discuss or debate it.

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Thank you. I was just begining to wonder if it was compulsory to go through the previous 17 threads to find out if anyone has voiced the same points before.

Ad Lemore = Ashara Dayne:

I've feshly re-read ADWD, and I can't recall Lemore's eyes ever described. Purple eyes are not very common, and if she had them, I believe Tyrion would have noticed (I don't think he would be able to recognize Ashara, if it's truly her, but notice he would, nonetheless). Besides, since they've put considerable effort into masking young Aegon's looks (Tyrion remarks how the blue hair makes his eyes looks blue rather than purple), it might not be very sensible to have another purple-eyed person around, as it could draw undue attention.

Jon's mother:

I've always thought the fact that Ned refuses to tell her name to Catelyn and Jon, while he names Wylla to Robert, as crucial. Why bolt the stable when the horse is already out? What harm or further dishonour could it bring if he named a commoner as his bastard's mother? It would make more sense if he was trying to protect Ashara's honour, but again: lots of people already believe it, and what harm could come of privately confessing to his wife, whom he apparently loves and trusts, or why not tell Jon, who is definitely reasonable enough to keep his mouth shut on this? Besides, though I have no doubt that Ned loved Ashara, he was too shy to ask her for a dance when they first met - when did he find the time and opportunity to become so bold as to pursue a sexual affair?

However, if Jon is truly Lyanna's by Raeghar, and the promise he gave her concerned the child's safety, it would make very much sense. He cannot deter Robert by refusing to tell like he does to his household but he cannot tell the truth, so he has to lie and provide a name which he has apparently used as a cover-up before. Being the honest man he is, though, he generally tries to avoid lying as much as he can, and that's why he tells nothing unless forced to, and especially he does not want to lie to his family

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I think the nature of the discussion has changed; originally it was 'is R+L=J true?' but if there is anybody out there that still disagrees with the theory I think they have given up posting in this thread. Now the discussion seems to be ever-more focussed on the details; is there evidence that Jon is legitimate? (aka lets revisit the toj) or what do the prophecies mean? or did Ned lie about Jon's age.

One point I'd like to revisit is the abduction. Mostly, why then? It takes place nearly a year after Harrenhal, so if R&L fell in love at the tourney they were obviously able to bury their feelings for some time, and I don't believe they were able to secretly court each other at long distance as raven mail does not allow for such secrecy. So even if love was the reason Rhaegar chose Lyanna I guess the finding Elia could not have another child prompted him to act at that time.

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Is it ever stated by any first-hand witness that Raeghar really abducted Lyanna? She was a hothead; what if she actually ran off with Raeghar? Brandon would still think the prince responsible, anyway, and react the way he did.

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One point I'd like to revisit is the abduction. Mostly, why then? It takes place nearly a year after Harrenhal, so if R&L fell in love at the tourney they were obviously able to bury their feelings for some time, and I don't believe they were able to secretly court each other at long distance as raven mail does not allow for such secrecy. So even if love was the reason Rhaegar chose Lyanna I guess the finding Elia could not have another child prompted him to act at that time.

Good point,.

Do we know for sure the abduction was a year after Harrenhal (I tend to get a bit confused by all the timelines :eek: ) ?

Hmph ... we lack a good witness, for instance Rickard.

I always found it odd that Brandon went to King's Landing to confront Rhaegar.

First of all, Rhaegar wasn't even there, so it was in many ways not a smart move, and the consequences were disastrous.

Why Brandon?

Let's see what was at stake here, setting aside for a moment the 'romantic angle' of the story.

House Stark and House Baratheon made a deal to join their houses: Robert would marry Lyanna.

I believe - but without conclusive reference in the text, I guess - that this deal was made as part of a bigger deal: to combine the strength of three houses.

The ruler of Storm's End would wed the daughter of the lord of Winterfell, the heir of Winterfell would wed a Tully.

That fits in the 'southron ambitions' Rickard displayed, influenced by the maester (a bastard Hightower?) that was at Winterfell before Maester Luwin.

Then one part of the deal is ruined: Lyanna disappears.

She is possibly kidnapped by Rhaegar.

That in itself seems like such a foolish thing to do.

If he was interested in Lyanna to make the third child in his bloodline, why not go to Richard Stark first and propose for Lyanna?

If Rickard had southreon ambitions, what better than wedding his daughter to the heir to the Iron Throne?

The deal could have made sweet for House Baratheon as well if a Targaryen princess, Rhaegars daughter, was promised to House Baratheon.

Well, maybe there was such a proposal and Rickard refused.

Then Rhaegar could have taken matters in his own hand and the shit hit the fan.

What you would expect is that Rickard went to Kings Landing, as the one who closed the deal on the Stark-Baratheon marriage contract and that he would lay his grief before the Small Council and/or the king.

So why this rash and utterly foolish action by Brandon?

Well, anything is possible, I guess, We have so little information.

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Brandon rides up to the Red Keep (where he would expect to find Rhaegar) and calls out "Come out and die, Rhaegar" or words to that effect.

But...he does not call for the return of Lyanna.

So Brandon knew Lyanna went willingly?

And Rickard's southron ambitions could be forming the foundation of an anti-Targaryen alliance, therefore Lyanna's 'defection' to Rhaegar could be a major blow to Rickard's ambitions.

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Brandon rides up to the Red Keep (where he would expect to find Rhaegar) and calls out "Come out and die, Rhaegar" or words to that effect.

But...he does not call for the return of Lyanna.

So Brandon knew Lyanna went willingly?

And Rickard's southron ambitions could be forming the foundation of an anti-Targaryen alliance, therefore Lyanna's 'defection' to Rhaegar could be a major blow to Rickard's ambitions.

Great point with Lyanna!

I'd really like to know one thing: who was where at the time of the supposed abduction. I doubt Raeghar went all the way up to Winterfell for Lyanna (or she the whole way to him alone); was she at the court at that time? Brandon seems to have been at Riverrun, rushing off as soon as he knew - which was how? Raven? Who would rush to inform him like that, and why? Lord Rickard was probably at Winterfell, or definitely somewhere else than Brandon, or he would have prevented him from committing such a folly.

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I am very curious what we will learn about Rhaegar's and Lyanna's perspective, as GRRM promised in that last interview.

The discussions on this board mainly cover Lyanna out of the romantic angle of the story.

Her clasping her crown of blue winter roses for instance, the roses in the room where she died.

But we never once hear Ned say that Lyanna was infatuated with Rhaegar, that she loved him.

If she went willingly with Rhaegar there is another angle that could be of relevance for what happened, what her actions led to.

We know from Ned's p.o.v. that he loved Lyanna very much.

That being so, he must have some feelings too about what the results of her actions were:

- the country at war, with numerous innocent victims

- his father and brother killed in horrible ways

- the broken contract with House Baratheon

- him (Ned) having to stand in for Brandon to marry Catelyn Tully, while he may have had other plans, if the tales about Ashara Dayne were true

- bringing a bastard child into the world, which could bring shame on House Stark (assuming that Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna)

- him (Ned) having to slay Arthur Dayne and loosing six of his most trusted friends

The discussions on this board see Lyanna as an innocent victim.

If she did not go willingly it was very, very awful what happened to her.

Either way she must have blamed Rhaegar for what happened to her brother and father as a result of his actions.

Or was everything kept silent for her?

She was held prison and was cut off from the world, a breeder for Rhaegars third child?

That just doesn't feel in character with what we know of Selmy's descriptions of Rhaegar.

And if she went willingly Ned had some unfinished business with her, to say the least.

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FanTasy: "But we never once hear Ned say that Lyanna was infatuated with Rhaegar, that she loved him."

I think that we never hear him say that because it would ruin the storytelling, not because it necessarily did not happen. We do know that Lyanna thought that Robert did not have it in him to be a faithful husband, and Ned at some point wondered whether Raeghar also frequented brothels - the context, IMHO, made it sound that the answer was apparently "no". I find this comparison rather weird to make, if Ned believed Raeghar to be and abductor and rapist... but for a lover/husband, quite natural.

Also - I can't find my AGOT, apparently I lent it so someone and never got it back, so I can't check - that moment when Cersei explains to Ned that she hates Robert because he called her "Lyanna" on their wedding night, and Ned thinks something along the line of "sad irony": what irony? That Robert was so infatuated with Lyanna, while she preferred another?

BTW, do we ever hear Ned express hatred towards the man who supposedly raped the sister he held so dear? I can't recall a single occasion.

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From v 17:

Unfortunately, at least to my knowledge, much of what you are looking for can't be answered. Martin has left us without enough information - and for a very good reason. He doesn't want fans to figure out his mysteries before he wants to reveal them. Can't think of a storyteller who would want that.

While I agree that Martin doesn't want to show all his cards, I think another reason we are left in the dark sometimes is the POV structure. With an omniscient narrator, the author can reveal all kinds of back story. However, since we are pinballing around several POVs, we get snippets of this and that and have to piece it all together. AND we have to factor how reliable each POV is, what biases he/she harbors, how restricted his/her perspective is. When I think back on events in my own life, I don't ponder and dwell on the back story for each detail. I appreciate how GRRM creates psychological realism in a world of magic. If he just told us all the sordid details, this would be more of a soap opera instead of good drama.

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Also - I can't find my AGOT, apparently I lent it so someone and never got it back, so I can't check - that moment when Cersei explains to Ned that she hates Robert because he called her "Lyanna" on their wedding night, and Ned thinks something along the line of "sad irony": what irony? That Robert was so infatuated with Lyanna, while she preferred another?

BTW, do we ever hear Ned express hatred towards the man who supposedly raped the sister he held so dear? I can't recall a single occasion.

These are the lines in AGOT you're referring to, I guess.

Ned asks Cersei what Robert did to make her hate him so.

Cersei says that on their wedding night he stank of wine "and he whispered Lyanna."

<Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I don't know which of you I pity most.">

She tells Ned she doesn't want his pity, they quarrel for a while and she slaps him and confronts him with:

<"Honor", she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for?

You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him.

Who was the mother, I wonder.">

She goes on about a Dornish peasant girl or a whore, and then:

<"Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told.

Why was that?

For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?">

And she asks him why he is different from her, from Robert, from Jaime.

Ned says that - for a start - he doesn't kill children.

No, I don't remember any words by Ned that express hate towards Rhaegar. But that could be his character, being a silent water.

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FanTasy: "But we never once hear Ned say that Lyanna was infatuated with Rhaegar, that she loved him."

I think that we never hear him say that because it would ruin the storytelling, not because it necessarily did not happen. We do know that Lyanna thought that Robert did not have it in him to be a faithful husband, and Ned at some point wondered whether Raeghar also frequented brothels - the context, IMHO, made it sound that the answer was apparently "no". I find this comparison rather weird to make, if Ned believed Raeghar to be and abductor and rapist... but for a lover/husband, quite natural.

Also - I can't find my AGOT, apparently I lent it so someone and never got it back, so I can't check - that moment when Cersei explains to Ned that she hates Robert because he called her "Lyanna" on their wedding night, and Ned thinks something along the line of "sad irony": what irony? That Robert was so infatuated with Lyanna, while she preferred another?

BTW, do we ever hear Ned express hatred towards the man who supposedly raped the sister he held so dear? I can't recall a single occasion.

This, and it occurs to me that Ned's feelings about Lyanna and Rhaegar may have been affected in context of his own feelings about Ashara Dayne, if they fell in love and

Ned was the "Stark" father of her stillborn daughter

. Understanding that who one marries and who one falls in love with are not always the same. Clearly, Ned grew to love Catelyn, but I think they were basically strangers to one another at their wedding and perhaps he felt guilt and regret about another love that he was forced to abandon,

especially if he had dishonored his lover and planned to make things right through marriage.

I believe Harwin mentions something about "promises made" between Eddard and Ashara at Harrenhal, and Allaria Dayne tells Edric that Ashara has loved Eddard so maybe those two had their own tragic love affair that got sidelined by events that spun out of control.

Anyway, it might give Eddard a more understanding perspective, not to say that he would have condoned what Rhaegar did and/or Lyanna if she eloped rather than fulfill the promise her father made to Baratheon, but because he loved Lyanna and maybe because he had loved and lost a woman himself, he could be less hateful of Rhaegar than Robert was. While Ned doesn't betray anything about it in his thoughts, perhaps he could relate to the idea that people may be torn between love and duty.

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Brandon rides up to the Red Keep (where he would expect to find Rhaegar) and calls out "Come out and die, Rhaegar" or words to that effect.

But...he does not call for the return of Lyanna.

So Brandon knew Lyanna went willingly?

[snip]

I don't know if this was suggested before, but: That if Lyanna had told Ned and/or Benjen, that she was leaving with Rhaegar, and he/they had not hold her back but told Brandon after she had vanished? Wouldn't that be something, that would bugger Ned his whole life?

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I don't know if this was suggested before, but: That if Lyanna had told Ned and/or Benjen, that she was leaving with Rhaegar, and he/they had not hold her back but told Brandon after she had vanished? Wouldn't that be something, that would bugger Ned his whole life?

Some people have suggested that Benjen knew about R+L and it was his guilt that made him join the NW.

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If Benjen knew and if Benjen is still alive, maybe it will be him who tells Jon about his parentage...

with all those nested ifs maybe it is easier if howland reed told him.... there are only a couple of books left after all :D

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I am pretty sure that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. We know that the sacking of KL happened roughly a year after Harrenhal. We also know that Lyanna disappeared shortly after the Tourney of all Tourneys.

We start to see a lot more of Rhaegar through Selmy's eyes and a bit from Jaime. I think it is safe to say that Rhaegar is the most tragic and misunderstood character. Even more so than, Sir Jaime or Sandor Clegane. Rhaegar seems to have been the best of Westeros. A much better man than Robert for sure.

So, I don't think that he (Rhaegar) would have kidnapped anyone & I don't think he wanted a war. But, his father was mad and paranoid. He fought his fathers war (for it was Areys who put Brandon & Rickard to death) and paid for it with his life.

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I am pretty sure that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. We know that the sacking of KL happened roughly a year after Harrenhal. We also know that Lyanna disappeared shortly after the Tourney of all Tourneys.

Timeline fail.

Harrenhal was some time in 281 (I don't believe anyone is sure when).

The Sack of KL is late 283 (Sept is the usual guess).

Lyanna's disappearance is also not nailed down well. I would like to know what makes you think it was 'shortly after' Harrenhal. As far as I can tell it could have been any time up to about the middle of the year, but probably in the early part, based on what else has time to happen before Ned and Catelyn marry around September 282.

That means anything up to a year (possibly slightly more) between Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction, though it could be soon after, with a few months maybe.

But there is at least 21 months, up to 33 months, between Harrenhal and the Sack of KL, not one year.

See Tower of the Hand or the Citadel of the Wiki. There are probably much better timelines out there (has EB or anyone else done one for the Rebellion like this for the 'current' series timeline?)

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