R+L=J v.18

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm new, but can I ask something?

Martin has said that every important storyline in the books has been laid out for the writers of Game of Thrones on HBO, so have we seen anything in the series what would suggests R+L=J?

Also, do we know of any Targs, other than Rhaegar's children, who came from on T+T unions? It seems like the silver hair and purple eyes would be very recessive traits.

Baelor Breakspear had a Targ father (Daeron II) and a Dornish mother (Myriah Martell) and looked like his mother.

Wasn't there at least one bastard Targ who took the throne? He may have just lay claim.

Daemon Blackfyre was a legitimized bastard who tried to lay claim to the throne and failed.

The fact that Neds TOJ flashbacks are left out.

Between hundreds of pages, and several books, the pieces are subtle, but if the TOJ scenes were shown, it would be glaringly apparent.

I assume that this is why the flashbacks were left out of the show. What is subtle enough on the page would be very, very apparent if it were on film.

[justinm57]

Wasn't there at least one bastard Targ who took the throne? He may have just lay claim.

Yeah, but there's other ways to hint at it, the strongest implication I picked up was on the recap of The Kingsroad before Lord Snow. There's the scene of Ned promising Jon they'll talk about his mother and then immeately cut to Robert vowing to kill every remaining Targaryen. The Ned/Jon scene felt really out of place, outside of the R+L=J scenario.

Flashbacks would feel really out of place in the series, but I was referring to scenes written that hint, if only slightly, at the theory.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, but there's other ways to hint at it, the strongest implication I picked up was on the recap of The Kingsroad before Lord Snow. There's the scene of Ned promising Jon they'll talk about his mother and then immeately cut to Robert vowing to kill every remaining Targaryen. The Ned/Jon scene felt really out of place, outside of the R+L=J scenario.

Flashbacks would feel really out of place in the series, but I was referring to scenes written that hint, if only slightly, at the theory.

They've actually been fairly subtle about it. Robert rails about evil Rhaegar and how he loved Lyanna and Ned is clearly lying when he tells Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother. Other than that, they haven't alluded to it that much.

[Tree Warg]

OK. First of all, everyone needs to quit it with the whole "if Jon was a true Targ, wouldn't he look like one"? All of Baratheon's (true) chilrum favor him (dark hair & blue eyes). So, maybe Lyanna has the "the stronger seed"? Arrya looks like Lyanna and Jon favors Arrya.

Second in ADWD, Ned asking his gods that he hopes they grow up like brothers, I am pretty sure this is GRRM hinting that Ned is definitely NOT Jon's father.

Lastly, IF everyone is so sure that R+L=J, and Lyanna dies during childbirth, The KG are resolved to go down in a "blaze of glory" then what is the intrigue? Nobody on this thread would feel a sense of let down? That Lyanna dying in childbirth is all that happens to her, she makes Ned promise to take care of Jon. What do we need Howland Reed for? Isn't it done? There is no need for any more speculation?

[Falrinn]

Lastly, IF everyone is so sure that R+L=J, and Lyanna dies during childbirth, The KG are resolved to go down in a "blaze of glory" then what is the intrigue? Nobody on this thread would feel a sense of let down? That Lyanna dying in childbirth is all that happens to her, she makes Ned promise to take care of Jon. What do we need Howland Reed for? Isn't it done? There is no need for any more speculation?

Howland Reed is needed for R+L=J to actually start affecting the story.

He's the only surviving witness to the events at the Tower of Joy and would be the only person who knows of Jon Snow's true parentage. Even the wet-nurse Wylla might not know. Ned Stark could of easily made it worth her while to claim Jon Snow as her own if anyone asked.

So the question of when and why Howland Reed would come forward is a pretty big topic of discussion. If Howland Reed has undeniable proof that Jon Snow is actually Rhaegar's true-borne heir (and making the reasonably safe assumption Jon Snow resolves his knife-related problem), then that throws the entire story for a loop.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Howland Reed is needed for R+L=J to actually start affecting the story.

He's the only surviving witness to the events at the Tower of Joy and would be the only person who knows of Jon Snow's true parentage. Even the wet-nurse Wylla might not know. Ned Stark could of easily made it worth her while to claim Jon Snow as her own if anyone asked.

So the question of when and why Howland Reed would come forward is a pretty big topic of discussion. If Howland Reed has undeniable proof that Jon Snow is actually Rhaegar's true-borne heir (and making the reasonably safe assumption Jon Snow resolves his knife-related problem), then that throws the entire story for a loop.

This, basically.

If the truth doesn't come out in the story, what's the point? Reed is one of the only people, if not the only person, still alive who can actually confirm it in a way that has implications to the overall plot. And it has to have some implications because, like I said, what would be the point otherwise? It can't just be, "Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, that's it, the end."

[Jem]

I am worried about how Howland Reed will make people believe him. I know he is a lord and all, but really he is just a strange little crannogman who has been living in his swamp for 15+ years. No outsiders have seen him since the period after the ToJ incident, so how would people even know that he is who he says he is? Even before that ,there weren't many people who knew him or trusted him and his people are 'known' to be odd and untrustworthy by nature. I wonder if he has some physical evidence, like a letter or something, to prove his claim about Jon's parentage?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I am worried about how Howland Reed will make people believe him. I know he is a lord and all, but really he is just a strange little crannogman who has been living in his swamp for 15+ years. No outsiders have seen him since the period after the ToJ incident, so how would people even know that he is who he says he is? Even before that ,there weren't many people who knew him or trusted him and his people are 'known' to be odd and untrustworthy by nature. I wonder if he has some physical evidence, like a letter or something, to prove his claim about Jon's parentage?

I've wondered that too. Then I figured that Martin must have some way, in his mind, to "prove" the truth to people within the story. We might not know what it is yet, but if the mystery is to be solved, there must also be a way for other characters to buy it.

[Ghost714]

This is to all the people who say Jon can't be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, because he doesn't have the Targ look.

The hedge knight 

Page # 23

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg.

“It’s said he favors his mother,” the boy reminded him. “She was a Dornish princess.”

(I believe this is GRRM throwing a bone to the fans, the one's that believe in the truth, that is R+L=J)

So stop using that as proof against R+L=J !!!!

Also here is a cool interview with Sean Bean about GoT(he played Ned in the GoT tv show)

(fyi) Sean Bean would only agree to play Ned under one condition. The condition was for GRRM to tell Sean Bean secrets about Ned's character, so Sean Bean could better portray Ned. So Sean Bean knows secrets about Ned that we can only speculate on.

Anyway here is the interview.

(I suggest reading the whole thing)

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

But here is the part I want to point out (the 1st part is said by the person giving the interview and the 2nd part is said by Sean Bean)

(1st)

"My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in."

(2nd)

"Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in."

These are just a few points that are rarely used to support R+L=J.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

^ There's another interview somewhere with Kit Harington talking about Jon getting some qualities "from his mother," or something. I'm not sure if it's implied or confirmed, but I recall seeing that Harington got some background info on Jon as well.

[Ghost714]

^ There's another interview somewhere with Kit Harington talking about Jon getting some qualities "from his mother," or something. I'm not sure if it's implied or confirmed, but I recall seeing that Harington got some background info on Jon as well.

You could be right about Kit Harington. But I thought when I read about Sean Bean getting to know character secrets about Ned (so he could better play Ned), I could have sworn I read that Kit Harington turned down the offer to "learn character secrets" about Jon ( mainly the truth of his parentage). Because Kit said Jon doesn't know who his parents are, so Kit did not want to know the secret because that would help him play Jon better, because Jon doesn't know.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You could be right about Kit Harington. But I thought when I read about Sean Bean getting to know character secrets about Ned (so he could better play Ned), I could have sworn I read that Kit Harington turned down the offer to "learn character secrets" about Jon ( mainly the truth of his parentage). Because Kit said Jon doesn't know who his parents are, so Kit did not want to know the secret because that would help him play Jon better, because Jon doesn't know.

That could very well be, I don't know. I just remember the "he must get it from his mother" (paraphrased, but that was the gist) thing and people thinking that Harington probably had some inside info there.

[Arya Targaryen]

There was an interview with him (Kit), in which he said (describing Jon), that he wants to be like his father, Ned, but he isn't, he gets angry and stuff, and he probably got his "fiery" side from his mother.

In another interview he said, that he knows the rumours about the parentage, and thinks it would be cool, but since it is not written yet, he doesn't take it for granted.

[Ghost714]

Ya but when he said he probably got his "fiery" side from his mother, he is just assuming he got that from her. But he doesn't actually know who his mother is, he just knows that he obviously didn't get that fiery-ness from Ned, so it must be from his mother, who ever she was.

[FanTasy]

Ya but when he said he probably got his "fiery" side from his mother, he is just assuming he got that from her. But he doesn't actually know who his mother is, he just knows that he obviously didn't get that fiery-ness from Ned, so it must be from his mother, who ever she was.

Next to Ned every wetnurse, fishermens daughter and Dornish or Northern highborn daughter looks pretty fiery :cool4:

[FanTasy]

These are just a few points that are rarely used to support R+L=J.

Thanks for posting this here. I'm not excluding the possibility R+L=J but like to leave some room for other options.

Pretty fishy text in this answer by Sean Bean.

Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

Even if? Ned calls Jon his son in the novels. This is fishy.

Let's assume Sean Bean is quoted correctly, then he believes that Ned isn't Jon's father.

That in such of course is no proof for R+L=J, it makes N+L=J less likely

[Ygrain]

Ned calls Jon his son in the novels.

If I'm not mistaken, he doesn't. "He is my blood" is what he tells Catelyn when she asks about Jon's mother.

[Ghost714]

Thanks for posting this here. I'm not excluding the possibility R+L=J but like to leave some room for other options.

Pretty fishy text in this answer by Sean Bean.

Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

Even if? Ned calls Jon his son in the novels. This is fishy.

Let's assume Sean Bean is quoted correctly, then he believes that Ned isn't Jon's father.

That in such of course is no proof for R+L=J, it makes N+L=J less likely

In the books and the show Ned never actually says he is Jons father. He says things like "he is my blood " and he does imply that he is Jon's father. But he never actually says I am Jon's father, or he is my son. Again it's always "he is my blood".

I think the reason why people think Ned actually said he is Jon's father, is because they hear/read Jon saying Ned is his father an subconsciously switch that to Ned saying it.

And I don't believe the interview alone proved R+L=J. But when combined with everything else it could. I was just saying that the Dunk and Egg quote, and the interview are rarely used in arguing R+L=J (in arguments I have seen at least)

[Rodrigo Baldin]

I thank you all that replied about my question on Robert and Lyanna. I totally agre. Timeline is enough to throw it away.

Let's assume now on that "Yes! Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon" and follow Ned's steps (I slept with this damn theory last night).

So, again, it happened and Ned knew it from the begining:

1) Ned lies to Robert and this is the first and biggest treason to Baratheons.

2) Ned doesnt like Robert's visit in Winterfel.

3) Ned doesnt want to be the Hand.

4) Ned goes south, against his will.

5) Ned starts to follow Arryn's steps worring about what the last Hand could have found, not because of Joffrey Lannister's heritage. And here I find LF's interests. I really think LF was close to Jon Arryn, just to do after what-we-know-he-did.

6) However, Ned is hunted because of it and perhaps Arryn were really looking for it. If I'm right about LF and JA, maybe it has been the opportunity to LF start his plan, sending the knife to north. What happend to Bran/James/Cersei nothing has to do with LF's plan.

7) Ned finds Gendry and send him away from the Throne, not away from danger. I would say that this is part of Ned's game: if somebody would ever look for an heir to be killed in the Wall, certainly it would be Gendry, not Jon.

8) Ned is arrested and confess somebody's crime believing that he would be sent to the Wall, and then come back with the trully heir, supported by the north. Not because of Sansa.

Why support Stannis, thou?

In my view, it was the faster thing to do to avoid Lannisters to take the iron throne...

[FanTasy]

If I'm not mistaken, he doesn't. "He is my blood" is what he tells Catelyn when she asks about Jon's mother.

No, actually he calls Robb and Jon his sons once. In Bran 1 in AGOT.

Jon and Robb found mama direwolf and her pups. Jon reappears at a crest of a hill and waves and shouts at Ned, Bran, Jory.

Jory asks: "Trouble, my lord?"

Ned: "Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now."

Well, if he wants the good folks at Winterfell to believe that Jon is his bastard son, I think he will put it like this.