[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I

[Jory]

This makes me wonder: the Braavosi being as anti-dragon as they are, why did the Sealord help broker the marriage deal between Arianne and Viserys? That must have seemed like the opposite of preventing the restoration of the dragonlords. If Doran Martell had been actually helping Viserys and Danerys behind the scenes instead of just letting them flounder alone, that deal would have really meant something with regard to Targaryen restoration.

Viserys didn't have dragons. They're not anti-Targaryen, they're anti-LITERAL dragons, which Daenerys has.

[The sword of 1:19pm]

Bittersteel swore to put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

I'm thinking Aegon is this Blackfyre, and Varys may be a Blackfyre himself. Would explain the loyalty of the Golden Cmpany

[Lord Varys]

I used the word 'dragonlords' for Daenerys and her three living dragons. I doubt that Braavos would have had a problem with dragon-less Viserys (all the Sealord did back then was standing witness for the marriage pact, that's not exactly aiding in a Targaryen restoration - it's more like a favor one noble does to the other). And I doubt that they would have a problem with Aegon, too. Daenerys and her dragons are the problem.

Remember when Jon japed about having dragons would be a good thing at the Wall, Tycho Nestoris was not amused. He was not amused at all...

With the help of the Braavosi Stannis could even consolidate his power in the North to become an actual threat to Aegon and/or Daenerys, if she ever comes to Westeros.

And I'd really like those three becoming the ones fighting for the Iron Throne in the last part of the series. It would be essentially three good guys, which would make it rather difficult for the reader to predict the outcome, or favor one over the other. Neither Aegon nor Daenerys seem to be bad-guy-material...

As to Lightbringer being delivered to the Boltons as a ruse:

I always thought this would be impossible. Stannis would never give his sword away, under no circumstances. But if something magical happened during this scheduled execution scene on the island, there is a good chance that Stannis reconsiders his allegiance to R'hllor. And then he might actually consider giving up Lightbringer - at least temporarily - to confuse the enemy.

He never bought the religious crap entirely in the first place. He used Melisandre, but he was never a true R'hllorian at heart. And I think he is still not convinced that he is Azor Ahai. He knows and understands that it is his duty to fight against the Others, but this has not necessarily something to do with him believing that he is the savior of the world.

But my guess was always that Ramsay and Roose used the letter to gain some hostages to put pressure on Stannis after they had lost the battle and retreated to Winterfell. If Jon or whoever controlled the Wall, would deliver Melisandre, Selyse & Shireen to Roose, he would have leverage over Stannis. Or so he might hope...

[Pliskin]

Viserys didn't have dragons. They're not anti-Targaryen, they're anti-LITERAL dragons, which Daenerys has.

Where is it said ?

IIRC, they're former slaves of Valyria and don't like the Valyrian Empire, but anti-dragons ? Why ?

[George Snow]

I think it's possible that Asha has forged the letter. Trying to get Jon to Stannis's camp before Theon is executed. She's been in a good place to gather information from Theon, Mormount, Stannis and his men. It's also possible that while she was on the islet, she talked to Bran/Bloodraven through the weirwood.

GH

[Grail King]

This is very interesting. Jeyne is continuing to pose as Arya instead of being immediately revealed as I assumed she would, which will make things interesting later. And with Jon "dead," I don't think there is anyone at Castle Black who can identify her.

Also noteworthy is the dismissal of Asha's unconsummated marriage despite her lack of virginity (significant for a certain other unconsummated marriage). I'm not at all surprised Justin wants to marry her, either.

And that ending does sound like Bran. Good chapter -- and I'm glad it wasn't Damphair!

I was hoping for Sansa though :frown5:

[tze]

Where is it stated that they don't like dragons? I remember that they are against the Valyrian empire, but that was because this empire practiced(large-scale) slavery, not necessarily because they had dragons.

When Jon jokes that a dragon would be pretty useful at the Wall, Tycho Nestoris becomes very upset: "You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.” The implication here is not that he thinks dragons are neutral figures and his only real issue is with slavers, since after all he's chiding a young man from a culture that does not practice slavery, on a continent that was ruled for a century and a half by guys with dragons who never introduced slavery. Instead, the implication is that Braavosi hate dragons, period. Plus, the major problem with dragons is that, in addition to their massive destructive capabilities, they live longer than humans do. Even if Dany doesn't want to use dragons to enslave people, who's to say that the next person to ride Drogon will feel the same?

All he's missing is the albino skin, and the rather recognizable birthmark xD But I see your point. I'll have to consider that when I re-read this chapter.

There's also the fact that, while Crowfood Umber usually wears a dragonglass eye, when Theon meets him, he's noticeably wearing a white eyepatch. A white eyepatch symbolizing albino skin, perhaps? Between this and Massey's little Bieber moment, I think GRRM is giving us a hint as to Bloodraven's interference, similar to when Sam saw the Blackwood sigil (a weirwood tree covered in a thousand ravens) when he met Coldhands.

Though, I wonder too what game was the old sealord playing. Maybe Targs had unpaid debts too?

At the time the Sealord witnessed the marriage contract, the Iron Bank would have probably been extending Robert credit while the Sealord simultaneously became intimately acquainted with Ser Willem Darry's plots. Perhaps Braavos was merely covering all its bases, so it would have an "in" with whoever ended up on the Iron Throne? Although, when rulers default to the Iron Bank, new rulers sprout up to take their place. Perhaps Aerys was heavily in debt to the Iron Bank, and the Bank gave Robert financial support in order to help knock Aerys off the throne? It would help explain why the Iron Bank never helped finance Darry or Viserys, yet is now willing to support Stannis, the guy who everyone else is dismissing as a non-threat.

I think Theon's little revelation about Euron's black eye is very fascinating. It certainly clarifies where the nickname "crow's eye" comes from. And it begs the question of why his sigil is a red eye rather than a black eye?

[sedeyus]

Where is it said ?

IIRC, they're former slaves of Valyria and don't like the Valyrian Empire, but anti-dragons ? Why ?

Because dragons were obviously the tool that Valyrians used to build their empire. I think it was the second last Jon chapter in ADWD after completing a large loan for the Watch, Tycho wouldn't even let Jon joke about Dragons being reborn.

Funny thing is I don't think it's wrong to be anti-Dragon. Suppose Dany invades Westeros, helps defeats the Others, becomes Queen, and is able to have children. What happens next if kids are able to grow dragons? Is that really a happy ending for the series that the Targaryens, always a coin flip between mad and great, retain power until the dragons die off again? As long as the dragons are healthy, Targaryens are pretty much unstoppable.

[Ser Wun Wun]

It took me like a month to ween myself off all things ASOIAF, now this sample chapter has sucked me right back in! What did the letter with the black seal say? No blood from Tycho, what?? A bunch of questions with no answers, at least not for a few years. I think I'm going to have to read ADWD again. The withdrawal that follows is going to majorly suck...again.

[Lord Varys]

Just a tidbit:

Back in Theon's second chapter in ADwD, the Frey brothers commanding Lord Walder's forces in the North are described as follows:

'Hosteen was a bull, slow to anger but implacable once roused, and by repute the fiercest fighter of Lord Walder’s get. Aenys was older, crueler, and more clever—a commander, not a swordsman. Both were seasoned soldiers.'

If that's right, then the Freys are now doomed indeed. Aenys is dead, and he was the man with the tactical brain.

Honestly, I don't see much hope for the Boltons. Roose himself may turn the tide, but I very much doubt that he will risk his life and take part in the coming battle. But even he is more a politician and plotter than a commander. Manderly is going to turn his cloak, Hosteen is stupid, and Ramsay, well, the man likes to maim, torture, and hunt, but he is obviously not the best battle commander on the earth.

[4rcane]

Mance will know Arya by sight. Didn't he go to Winterfell during Robert's visit and took a look the the Stark children

[brashcandy]

I was hoping for Sansa though :frown5:

Yes, but there was still stuff that related to Sansa indirectly:

1. Massey's talk with Stannis about wanting to marry Asha as her marriage happened by proxy and was unconsummated.

2. Sansa's love of lemoncakes was referenced when Theon was thinking of whether Jeyne would remember the name of the blacksmith :)

3. The mistaken/assumed identity theme is still being continued with Jeyne, which makes it probable that we'll see Sansa continuing to masquerade as Alayne for a while. I don't think any of the Stark children are going to find resuming their old identities an easy feat, and it won't happen in TWOW.

[Wouter]

With the help of the Braavosi Stannis could even consolidate his power in the North to become an actual threat to Aegon and/or Daenerys, if she ever comes to Westeros.

And I'd really like those three becoming the ones fighting for the Iron Throne in the last part of the series. It would be essentially three good guys, which would make it rather difficult for the reader to predict the outcome, or favor one over the other. Neither Aegon nor Daenerys seem to be bad-guy-material...

Agreed, and that's exactly what would make the outcome so hard to predict. For many other series, just the Jon-Stannis-Davos-Tycho show in the north would be enough for an entire epic, without adding Aegon and Dany and Euron in the mix. ASOIAF is complicated.

But my guess was always that Ramsay and Roose used the letter to gain some hostages to put pressure on Stannis after they had lost the battle and retreated to Winterfell. If Jon or whoever controlled the Wall, would deliver Melisandre, Selyse & Shireen to Roose, he would have leverage over Stannis. Or so he might hope...

Agreed, the letter could be pretty much a lie from A to Z (by the Boltons themselves), with the aim of getting hold of Stannis' family (after which they could start flaying Shireen until Stannis surrenders).

When Jon jokes that a dragon would be pretty useful at the Wall, Tycho Nestoris becomes very upset: "You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.” The implication here is not that he thinks dragons are neutral figures and his only real issue is with slavers, since after all he's chiding a young man from a culture that does not practice slavery, on a continent that was ruled for a century and a half by guys with dragons who never introduced slavery. Instead, the implication is that Braavosi hate dragons, period. Plus, the major problem with dragons is that, in addition to their massive destructive capabilities, they live longer than humans do. Even if Dany doesn't want to use dragons to enslave people, who's to say that the next person to ride Drogon will feel the same?

Interesting, I had forgotten that exchange. It does seem Tycho is really not comfortable with dragons in and off themselves, allthough this association no doubt is an inheritance from the fear and hate for the Valyrian dragonlords and their slavery. It is also a good point that the dragons will be inherited and especially with the Targaryens, who knows what the next king/queen will be like?

However, it should still conflict the Braavosi in general that the person in control of the dragons (for now) is also the same one who eradicated slavery in slaver's bay, something Braavos itself never had a shot at doing. They may not like dragons (Tycho's feelings on this matter may be stronger than the Sealord's feelings, depending on who that is), but they should like Dany's intentions. Of course, Stannis himself is no doubt anti-slavery as well, so they can support him without scruples as well.

[Wouter]

What did the letter with the black seal say? No blood from Tycho, what??

The letter is likely Jon's warning to Stannis, about the Karstarks (hence the black seal - for the NW). As for Tycho - I think Theon is just saying he doesn't like bankers much (pretty much like many people don't like bankers presently - GRRM may be winking to the reader, here).

[4rcane]

if that were the case, I don't think he'd be able to see through the weirwoods on the south side of the Wall

Um, yes he can. The Greenseer been looking through the weirwoods south of the wall for decades. He been watching Bran grow. In ADWD Bran can see his own father via the Winterfell weirwood. The Wall doesn't stop the weirdwood network from being connected with each other

[Wouter]

Mance will know Arya by sight. Didn't he go to Winterfell during Robert's visit and took a look the the Stark children

Jeyne will be gone, off to the Wall, by the time Mance may reach Stannis (if he is still alive).

Brashcandy; for Sansa, not reclaiming her old identity would hardly be a problem as her present identity keeps her out of harm's way (and away from most potential suitors as well, which is a plus for her at this point).

[Pliskin]

When Jon jokes that a dragon would be pretty useful at the Wall, Tycho Nestoris becomes very upset: "You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.” The implication here is not that he thinks dragons are neutral figures and his only real issue is with slavers, since after all he's chiding a young man from a culture that does not practice slavery, on a continent that was ruled for a century and a half by guys with dragons who never introduced slavery. Instead, the implication is that Braavosi hate dragons, period. Plus, the major problem with dragons is that, in addition to their massive destructive capabilities, they live longer than humans do. Even if Dany doesn't want to use dragons to enslave people, who's to say that the next person to ride Drogon will feel the same?

Because dragons were obviously the tool that Valyrians used to build their empire. I think it was the second last Jon chapter in ADWD after completing a large loan for the Watch, Tycho wouldn't even let Jon joke about Dragons being reborn.

Ok, thanks.

But dunno, seems to me that they hate slavery above all. And the enemy of an enemy is a friend... so backing Daenerys up in her fight against slavers seems logical to me, even if she has got dragons.

[Ice Turtle]

One question, how will Stannis winning and getting his support from Iron Bank complicate situation with Robb's will?

Before this chapter I was sure Jon was close to becoming King of the North and Stannis being stabbed to back by Northmen. Now...I'm not so sure.

But there is still the matter of the heart tree burned at Storm End, no matter what North will not like that. However, I like the idea about Stannis converting again.

So if Jon get his hands on Robbs will, will he accept? If yes, will he fight Stannis or will he bend a knee.

[Candor]

One question, how will Stannis winning and getting his support from Iron Bank complicate situation with Robb's will?

Before this chapter I was sure Jon was close to becoming King of the North and Stannis being stabbed to back by Northmen. Now...I'm not so sure.

But there is still the matter of the heart tree burned at Storm End, no matter what North will not like that. However, I like the idea about Stannis converting again.

So if Jon get his hands on Robbs will, will he accept? If yes, will he fight Stannis or will he bend a knee.

Jon may accept Robb's will, but as a Lord of Winterfell at best.

He would hvae to be pretty fucking stupid to start a third front to the war in order to claim kingship of the North. It's about the worst possible time for doing so, and he doesn't have enough resources.

[skins7778]

Jon may accept Robb's will, but as a Lord of Winterfell at best.

He would hvae to be pretty fucking stupid to start a third front to the war in order to claim kingship of the North. It's about the worst possible time for doing so, and he doesn't have enough resources.

I agree it would be stupid of Jon to do that, but who's to say once the letter/will becomes commonly known there wont be another "King of the North" moment for Jon. Robb had to know it was a bad idea but he fell for the power, is Jon strong enough to dismiss that? I hope so.

I love how we just assume he's alive.