Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ran

[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I

Recommended Posts

I don't see any comparisons to the lead up to the Red Wedding. With the Red Wedding the clues to the tragedy that would take place were definitely there. Robb continued to screw up time and time again and things were not really going that well for him. Stannis has not made any blatantly obvious mistakes, like Robb did, and hasn't made any large enemies yet. So if some tragedy is awaiting Stannis, I don't think it is coming soon. There just are no signs like there were before the Red Wedding.

I'd disagree with that. By burning weirwood trees, both at Storm's End and beyond the Wall, he made enemies of every devout Old Gods worshiper in the North, and I'd say there's a zero percent chance that the clansmen are unaware of at least one of those events, especially since the burning of "Mance Rayder" was apparently spread far and wide, and there's an excellent chance the burning of the weirwood pieces was also spread far and wide. By offering to hand Winterfell over to the Karstarks---the House that abandoned the Young Wolf---he probably pissed off a bunch of people as well. He let wildlings through the Wall and then basically left them to their own devices; the only reason they're not raiding south right now is because Jon, the Winterfell-raised son of Lord Stark, stepped in to rather publicly clean up Stannis's mess. Alysanne Mormont has hinted that she's been in contact with her mother (she mentions in ADWD that she knows her sisters are with Maege) and Lyanna Mormont seemed to be pulling a Wylla Manderly when she announced the Mormonts would only follow the King in the North; with Maege's knowledge of Robb's will, coupled with Lyanna's proclamation, it sounds likely that the Mormonts haven't given up the King in the North dream. The Liddles are "with" Stannis, yet none of them have mentioned their man meeting up with Brandon Stark, which is rather striking. We have the clansmen, Umbers, and Mormonts going after a potential "Arya" figure in Winterfell, we have Manderly sending Davos after Rickon and telling him to be sure to bring the direwolf to confirm the kid's identity, yet oddly enough nobody's making the obvious "let's ask the Lord Commander of the Watch to confirm this person's identity" proposal. It's almost as if they want to draw attention away from Jon, and there's only one obvious reason to do that. There are a number of ways that Wyman Manderly could be planning to fulfill the letter of his vow with Davos while still screwing Stannis over (Rickon isn't really his liege lord, Wyman might be on a suicide mission and his son isn't bound by his vow, etc.). Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet, and I think there's a plot-based reason for that.

Each of these things, taken individually, isn't definitive. But there are a large number of little hints that, taken together, could easily foreshadow a plot by the Lords of the North to play Stannis and the Boltons against each other, destroy them both, and then freely declare a new Stark King in the North (especially as we saw the elements of a plot to free the Lannister/Frey hostages in the Riverlands back in AFFC).

For that matter, Roose was sending the Freys out one gate and the Manderlys out another. We know what happened to the Freys, but what happened to the Manderly host? Did they stay inside Winterfell? Did they ride out the East Gate? If they did ride out, then there's little chance Crowfood missed it, and if he didn't send a message to Stannis, well, that's another hint that perhaps the North isn't really playing on Team Stannis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd disagree with that. By burning weirwood trees, both at Storm's End and beyond the Wall, he made enemies of every devout Old Gods worshiper in the North, and I'd say there's a zero percent chance that the clansmen are unaware of at least one of those events, especially since the burning of "Mance Rayder" was apparently spread far and wide, and there's an excellent chance the burning of the weirwood pieces was also spread far and wide. By offering to hand Winterfell over to the Karstarks---the House that abandoned the Young Wolf---he probably pissed off a bunch of people as well. He let wildlings through the Wall and then basically left them to their own devices; the only reason they're not raiding south right now is because Jon, the Winterfell-raised son of Lord Stark, stepped in to rather publicly clean up Stannis's mess. Alysanne Mormont has hinted that she's been in contact with her mother (she mentions in ADWD that she knows her sisters are with Maege) and Lyanna Mormont seemed to be pulling a Wylla Manderly when she announced the Mormonts would only follow the King in the North; with Maege's knowledge of Robb's will, coupled with Lyanna's proclamation, it sounds likely that the Mormonts haven't given up the King in the North dream. The Liddles are "with" Stannis, yet none of them have mentioned their man meeting up with Brandon Stark, which is rather striking. We have the clansmen, Umbers, and Mormonts going after a potential "Arya" figure in Winterfell, we have Manderly sending Davos after Rickon and telling him to be sure to bring the direwolf to confirm the kid's identity, yet oddly enough nobody's making the obvious "let's ask the Lord Commander of the Watch to confirm this person's identity" proposal. It's almost as if they want to draw attention away from Jon, and there's only one obvious reason to do that. There are a number of ways that Wyman Manderly could be planning to fulfill the letter of his vow with Davos while still screwing Stannis over (Rickon isn't really his liege lord, Wyman might be on a suicide mission and his son isn't bound by his vow, etc.). Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet, and I think there's a plot-based reason for that.

Each of these things, taken individually, isn't definitive. But there are a large number of little hints that, taken together, could easily foreshadow a plot by the Lords of the North to play Stannis and the Boltons against each other, destroy them both, and then freely declare a new Stark King in the North (especially as we saw the elements of a plot to free the Lannister/Frey hostages in the Riverlands back in AFFC).

For that matter, Roose was sending the Freys out one gate and the Manderlys out another. We know what happened to the Freys, but what happened to the Manderly host? Did they stay inside Winterfell? Did they ride out the East Gate? If they did ride out, then there's little chance Crowfood missed it, and if he didn't send a message to Stannis, well, that's another hint that perhaps the North isn't really playing on Team Stannis.

There are no weirwood trees at Storm's End.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are no weirwood trees at Storm's End.

Stannis burned them in A Clash of Kings didn't he?

Edit: I'm thinking of when he burned the Seven at Dragonstone, didn't he also burn what weirwoods were there? I will actually have to go get the book now to check.

Edit 2: It's all Robert's fault for not giving Stannis Storms End.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, thanks for this. I'm liking the predictions for Asha's plan, hopefully it'll work out this time.

I didn't read the entire thread but has it been brought up that perhaps Arya might be part of the sellswords that get hired?

Ah, never mind, it has. This would be an unexpected, at least for me, link to Westoros for Arya. I'd always thought that she may somehow be in company with Dany before reaching Westoros.

Also:

The ironborn bowed and retreated. Asha took a knee. "Your Grace. Must my brother be chained like that? It seems a poor reward for bringing you the Stark girl."

The king's mouth twitched. "You have a bold tongue, my lady. Not unlike your turncloak brother."

"Thank you, Your Grace."

"It was not a compliment."

Lololol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd disagree with that. By burning weirwood trees, both at Storm's End and beyond the Wall, he made enemies of every devout Old Gods worshiper in the North, and I'd say there's a zero percent chance that the clansmen are unaware of at least one of those events, especially since the burning of "Mance Rayder" was apparently spread far and wide, and there's an excellent chance the burning of the weirwood pieces was also spread far and wide. By offering to hand Winterfell over to the Karstarks---the House that abandoned the Young Wolf---he probably pissed off a bunch of people as well. He let wildlings through the Wall and then basically left them to their own devices; the only reason they're not raiding south right now is because Jon, the Winterfell-raised son of Lord Stark, stepped in to rather publicly clean up Stannis's mess. Alysanne Mormont has hinted that she's been in contact with her mother (she mentions in ADWD that she knows her sisters are with Maege) and Lyanna Mormont seemed to be pulling a Wylla Manderly when she announced the Mormonts would only follow the King in the North; with Maege's knowledge of Robb's will, coupled with Lyanna's proclamation, it sounds likely that the Mormonts haven't given up the King in the North dream. The Liddles are "with" Stannis, yet none of them have mentioned their man meeting up with Brandon Stark, which is rather striking. We have the clansmen, Umbers, and Mormonts going after a potential "Arya" figure in Winterfell, we have Manderly sending Davos after Rickon and telling him to be sure to bring the direwolf to confirm the kid's identity, yet oddly enough nobody's making the obvious "let's ask the Lord Commander of the Watch to confirm this person's identity" proposal. It's almost as if they want to draw attention away from Jon, and there's only one obvious reason to do that. There are a number of ways that Wyman Manderly could be planning to fulfill the letter of his vow with Davos while still screwing Stannis over (Rickon isn't really his liege lord, Wyman might be on a suicide mission and his son isn't bound by his vow, etc.). Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet, and I think there's a plot-based reason for that.

Each of these things, taken individually, isn't definitive. But there are a large number of little hints that, taken together, could easily foreshadow a plot by the Lords of the North to play Stannis and the Boltons against each other, destroy them both, and then freely declare a new Stark King in the North (especially as we saw the elements of a plot to free the Lannister/Frey hostages in the Riverlands back in AFFC).

For that matter, Roose was sending the Freys out one gate and the Manderlys out another. We know what happened to the Freys, but what happened to the Manderly host? Did they stay inside Winterfell? Did they ride out the East Gate? If they did ride out, then there's little chance Crowfood missed it, and if he didn't send a message to Stannis, well, that's another hint that perhaps the North isn't really playing on Team Stannis.

I might agree if we have seen something that suggests something will go wrong for Stannis. Like with Robb we knew the Freys were angry and we knew the Karstarks were angry. If, perhaps, we had a scene where Stannis' men were discussing how angry they were that he burned weirwoods, or Manderly privately confiding how he doesn't trust Stannis. With Robb there was a lot of foreshadowing, especially with Arya's chapters and Roose. With Stannis there just hasn't been that level of foreshadowing. The foreshadowing on the part of Manderly just seems to suggest that he is planning on betraying the Boltons. Manderly doesn't have the option, right now, to let the Boltons and Stannis kill each other because he is right in the middle of it. So I do not see that plan developing that way.

I do agree that there is a reason Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet, but I see nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with the impending fate of Stannis. Perhaps it could be said that when Manderly gets Rickon he could then turn on Stannis and led the North in a revolt against both Stannis and Bolton (if they're both still around), and I don't disagree that when Robb's will surfaces that there will be plenty of people declaring for the "true" king in the north, Jon. But I do not see some scheme being developed right now by the northmen. I see some biding their time, while others choosing the lesser of two evils.

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that for Robb before the Red Weddings things weren't "too good" like they are for Stannis right now. There was plenty of bad things happening for Robb that suggested something could go wrong. With Stannis that isn't happening. He is in a dire situation, but he is playing all the right cards: he caught the Karstarks before they could turn on him, he has some plan to defeat his enemies, his enemies are all at each other's throats. And things seem good, perhaps too good. But that is not how things were for Robb before the Red Wedding. Robb had some large mistakes that went ignored and it cost him his life. And I definitely think it is possible that things will go bad for Stannis, after all this is George R. R. Martin we're talking about, but I do not think this situation is comparable to the pre-Red Wedding situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stannis burned them in A Clash of Kings didn't he?

Edit: I'm thinking of when he burned the Seven at Dragonstone, didn't he also burn what weirwoods were there? I will actually have to go get the book now to check.

Edit 2: It's all Robert's fault for not giving Stannis Storms End.

A godswood is not necessarily a weirdwood forest. It's just a forest used for praying. In the South this means that the woods are used for those of the Faith of the Seven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×