[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

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But what would Stannis do with Rickon if he gets him? If Davos can bring Rickon with Shaggydog, without having to kill the direwolf to bring Rickon,then Shaggydog is proof to all the northern lords that Rickon is who he says he is.

Will Stannis see Rickon as the Heir to the King of the North? Or a Lord of Winterfell to rally the north behind Stannis?

I suspect and hope it's the latter, otherwise Stannis would have to kill Rickon.

Why should stannis have to kill rickon? The deal with manderly was to restore the son of Ned stark as lord of winterfell, not kotn. At least if iirc. Davos wouldn't have agreed otherwise-he knows that stannis would agree to nothing less and as always speaks with his voice.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I'm still not on the Stannis train, but boy, howdy, there was a lot going on in those few pages and I really, really want to read more.

[Black Crow]

A thoroughly splendid chapter and one of my better Christmas presents...

A lot's been said up thread so I'll just chuck in a couple of observations:

Stannis seems totally changed for the better and its hard to avoid the impression its because he has neither Selsye nor Mel hanging round his neck telling him what to do.

Agree that we're looking for the Alexander Nevsky battle on the ice scenario for the battle of Winterfell.

As I recall said battle was originally intended to have been included in ADwD but got cut and held back for WoW. If we add this new chapter to the Arianne one read earlier, the Euron (?) one which was offered as an alternative, and the Mereen battle which I also understand has been written, WoW might just possibly be a little bit further on than we feared...

[Eyron]

Exactly! I have to re-read this gift chapter but I took it as a letter from the Wall.

My first thought was that it was the letter Tycho carried from Jon to Stannis about Arnolf Karstarks betrayal. Theon could know from speaking with Tycho or his guards I guess. But it's fishy, Theon sounded weird about it, I mean giggling?

The contract signed with blood had a very faustian vibe.

Also, in this world King's blood can be used for rather "interesting" things.

I wonder what happens if you burn a letter signed in King's Blood? Do you get magic? ;)

So now we have Ramsay writing letters in blood (except The Letter) plus Tyrion and Stannis signing a contracts in their own blood.

So now, next to the pink letter, we have a black one, too. I also thought it must have been from Castle Black. The only way Theon could know what it was would be if he had seen such a letter before, so maybe it is true what some of us have suspected: Bolton has a man on the Wall? Maybe Bowen Marsh or someone else told Roose what was going on there? Bolton knew when Stannis would leave the Wall. Could it be that Stannis intercepted a letter from Marsh to Bolton, telling him about the wildlings Jon allowed through the Wall? It could be that Theon knows WHAT it would say because he got this news from the rangers who accompanied the banker, and that he knew WHO sent it because he had seen such letters before in Winterfell? There is no way he could know what Jon would write, right?

Except, if it's the more boring explanation, it's the letter from Jon warning Stannis of Karstark's treachery? But why would Theon know about that, then?

If Theon knew about the wildling army, it would make sense if Asha and Theon wrote the pink letter, and it's possible Theon knows the false washerwomen were wildlings. They spoke wildling catch phrases in front of him, he should know who they are, and he knows that Jon sent them. Maybe that Massey guy is working with them (maybe he knows something about Melisandre's glamor-trick?)?

Wasn't there something about those wrong way rangers in ADWD, or something? Wasn't he one of them?

Nice to read your thoughts on The Letter again, I had not come up with anything new, and now we get this!

I think black seal=Night's Watch is common knowledge, so Theon would know it's from the Wall. It could be Jon, Melisandre or an intercepted letter from a spy to the Boltons. Another mysterious letter... sigh.

Massey was one of the "wrong-way" rangers, but they just went to see some Northern lords I think. And they seem to have done so.

And he was one of those that wanted to marry "the wildling princess". He was at the strategy meeting with Jon and Stannis and has a sneaky way to get involved with all our POV characters. Something's up with Massey.

Important note: the ink had frozen, hence the blood signature. I this a hint that the letter did not come from Stannis' camp?

[Chise]

the one night I stay off the interwebz and miss this!?! *shakes fist*

This chapter is better than Christmas. my lil fangirl self needed some Theon, and there it was.

also crows screaming Theon's name... dammit GRRM, stop having all the crows do the name thing

[FanTasy]

Okay, just re-read the Christmas Gift.

Some questions, hope you all can shed some light.

The bloodless Braavosi. Twice Theon thinks about him. Why does Theon think there is no blood to get out of this character? <You will never get a drop of blood from that one, my lord, he might have told him.>

Am I reading too much into it or is there some mind-influencing being done by Theon, before and after the ravens are brought into the room?

And he knows a lot! About the letter: <It's broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. I know what that says, he thought, giggling.>

Who does Theon mean when he says to Stannis "You must not let him take him." when he tells him Ramsay is coming.

What is that thing with Ser Justin's hair falling before his eye? Twice? Just a bad hair day?

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

The bloodless Braavosi thing is just some anti-banker sentiment.

[The hairy bear]

An excellent chapter. A wonderful read. But...

I read this one immediately. All it did for me was tell me that the editing decisions on ADWD were probably mistakes.

My feeling exactly. This chapter clearly belonged to ADWD! Reading Jon's last chapter after having read this would still suppose a huge surprise but it will make a lot of more sense. Instead, placing it in TWOW will only confuse readers. Honestly, I feel this has been a mistake.

On a related matter, having this chapter available so much before the release of TWOW will make discussing any topic North/Wall related nearly impossible in a spoilerless way. I'm afraid we won't be able to participate in discussions on the general forum in any significant manner for years.

I kind of think Manderly went to Winterfell to die. That is what he is expecting to happen, at either the hands of Stannis or the hands of the Boltons.

I don't think Manderly has a dead wish. Otherwise he wouldn't have faked Davos death. He also wouldn't have any need for the Frey pie deception: he had them at his mercy at White Harbor and could have killed them openly at will.

Its going to be hard for Manderly to come to stanis's side. How will he convince him that davos is still alive? I never thought of how stanis would fill about him faking his death.

Manderly has planned to turn against the Freys and the Boltons for the start, and Stannis could have proved a valuable ally. Any intelligent man in his place would have obtained from Davos a letter or any other prove that he's alive, and I sure he'll produce it soon enough.

[Michael Jon Snow]

Yeah, the bloodless banker sounded like Theon was calling him a tight wad. I didn't get an undead our supernatural vibe at all.

I think the black letter was the warning from Jon. I think Theon was giddy because it spoils one of Ramsey/Reese's plans.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

This was amazing, best christmas present ever!!! I'm not a fan of Stannis ( I like him mainly because him and Jon together are hilarious) but I'm pretty impressed by him on this chapter.

[FanTasy]

On a related matter, having this chapter available so much before the release of TWOW will make discussing any topic North/Wall related nearly impossible in a spoilerless way. I'm afraid we won't be able to participate in discussions on the general forum in any significant manner for years.

Well, the events in the Christmas Gift Chapter I just saw included in the wiki ... if that is policy they can be discussed at this forum, with spoiler warning.

[Sun]

And he knows a lot! About the letter: <It's broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. I know what that says, he thought, giggling.>

I took it as simply Theon recognizing the letter with the black seal as correspondence from the Night Watch and Jon.

ETA: oops I forgot to finish my thought here :blushing: ... that it is, like others already pointed out, the letter Jon wrote to warn Stannis of Arnolf's betrayal.

Who does Theon mean when he says to Stannis "You must not let him take him." when he tells him Ramsay is coming.

I read that as a typo/misprint. That it was supposed to be "you must not let him take me".

Regarding the pink letter. After reading the posts here and all the theories, I think the most likely theory, imo, is that the letter is indeed written by Ramsay. That Madarlay in colusion with Stannis tricked the Bastard into thinking he's dead, as a way to distract him while Stannis and a few good men surreptitiously smuggled themselves into Winterfell via a passage through the wall to open the gates? Perhaps? Yeah, it still has holes in it, but it's all I have for now.

[Ice Turtle]

I have a teensy confession......

And the idea of sending Alysanne Mormont with "Lady Arya" as a suitable matron companion is hysterical. It's like Brienne being Cersei's lady-in-waiting.

What other choice Stannis has, Asha? It's not proper for lady to travel alone with men, and it get him rid of irritating woman that doesn't know her place as well. For Stannis all the women (expect Mel) are the same.

[Alexia]

I don't think Manderly has a dead wish. Otherwise he wouldn't have faked Davos death. He also wouldn't have any need for the Frey pie deception: he had them at his mercy at White Harbor and could have killed them openly at will.

He faked Davos' death to get his son back from the Lannisters and Freys, and the point of the Frey pie deception was to feed them to the Boltons and the Freys.

Cracking jokes about the Rat Cook seems to me like a man who doesn't really expect to survive his revenge.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe it was Theon who sent the fake letter to Jon? Theon had the knowledge that was in the letter, plus the means now - being close to the ravens to send that message

OK, I think I might have it.

Theon knows that if Jon sees the fake Arya, he'll know right off that she's an impostor. Jon is really the only person still alive or nearby or in any real capacity to prove Jeyne's fraud. Theon knows that, even if he can convince Stannis to save him for the moment, they'll kill him if/when they learn that Arya is a fake. So what does he do? He writes a letter in Ramsay's voice, to get Jon away from the Wall so he won't be there when Massey arrives with "Arya." With no one on the Wall to say otherwise, everyone goes on thinking Jeyne's Arya, Theon can keep playing the hero and, hey, if Jon walks right into Ramsay's forces and gets killed, so much the better for Theon, right? I'm not saying that Theon actively wants Jon killed, just that he'll do anything he can to keep the truth about Jeyne from getting out.

Hmm? What say you?

[FanTasy]

Theon knows that, even if he can convince Stannis to save him for the moment, they'll kill him if/when they learn that Arya is a fake. So what does he do? He writes a letter in Ramsay's voice, to get Jon away from the Wall so he won't be there when Massey arrives with "Arya." With no one on the Wall to say otherwise, everyone goes on thinking Jeyne's Arya, Theon can keep playing the hero and, hey, if Jon walks right into Ramsay's forces and gets killed, so much the better for Theon, right? I'm not saying that Theon actively wants Jon killed, just that he'll do anything he can to keep the truth about Jeyne from getting out.

Hmm? What say you?

Hmm ... could be. But Theon gives the impression that he welcomes death, not fears it. The only thing he fears is that Ramsay gets him back.

[the Scorpion Knight]

why do get the feeling the raven will cry "theon" "truth" "winterfell"?

[Ice Turtle]

OK, I think I might have it.

Theon knows that if Jon sees the fake Arya, he'll know right off that she's an impostor. Jon is really the only person still alive or nearby or in any real capacity to prove Jeyne's fraud. Theon knows that, even if he can convince Stannis to save him for the moment, they'll kill him if/when they learn that Arya is a fake. So what does he do? He writes a letter in Ramsay's voice, to get Jon away from the Wall so he won't be there when Massey arrives with "Arya." With no one on the Wall to say otherwise, everyone goes on thinking Jeyne's Arya, Theon can keep playing the hero and, hey, if Jon walks right into Ramsay's forces and gets killed, so much the better for Theon, right? I'm not saying that Theon actively wants Jon killed, just that he'll do anything he can to keep the truth about Jeyne from getting out.

Hmm? What say you?

But he doesn't know about Mance. What about Theon and Mance writing the letter together. If Mance could marry Arya he will become Lord of Winterfell meaning much better position for his folk. But Mance may know Arya is fake, and knowing that he will know Jon will know. Besides Jon betrayed him once in past.

[brashcandy]

A few points:

- Stannis can obviously shine on his own when Mel is not around. Thank goodness.

- Asha was probably not as confused as Theon surmises when he was telling her about all the madness at Winterfell with the heart tree and the missing swords. She's clearly up to something with suggesting that Theon be taken to the weirwood to be executed. I'm beginning to believe that somehow she's been in contact with Bran.

- I really want the Arya mystery cleared up, and have Jeyne go off somewhere to live quietly. The masquerade is beginning to get on my nerves, especially since there's going to be no one at the Wall to identify "Arya" as Jeyne. Anyways, I suppose it adds that extra layer of plot suspense especially if Massey takes Jeyne to Braavos with him now. Btw, do we know where Jeyne went to receive her "training"?

[Sun]

OK, I think I might have it.

Theon knows that if Jon sees the fake Arya, he'll know right off that she's an impostor. Jon is really the only person still alive or nearby or in any real capacity to prove Jeyne's fraud. Theon knows that, even if he can convince Stannis to save him for the moment, they'll kill him if/when they learn that Arya is a fake. So what does he do? He writes a letter in Ramsay's voice, to get Jon away from the Wall so he won't be there when Massey arrives with "Arya." With no one on the Wall to say otherwise, everyone goes on thinking Jeyne's Arya, Theon can keep playing the hero and, hey, if Jon walks right into Ramsay's forces and gets killed, so much the better for Theon, right? I'm not saying that Theon actively wants Jon killed, just that he'll do anything he can to keep the truth about Jeyne from getting out.

Hmm? What say you?

It's plausible, if we can answer these questions:

I- Where does Theon get a hold of pink wax for the seal?

2- Does Theon know about Val, and Mance's son, or even Mance's real name (he calls him abel in this chapter)? (I can't remember what Mance told Theon in ADWD, but I don't think so)

3- Theon is a prisoner and in chains, can we see Stannis letting him roam freely enough to write a letter and steal a raven?

4- Do we think The Theon we see in this chapter capable of such devious and calculated thinking?

5- Would a guilt ridden Theon, one who thinks he deserves death for killing young innocent boys, risk Jon's life simply to avoid the relief (his word) of death?