[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I

[axels15]

What if it takes place before the letter?

Manderely engages Stannis, but instead treats with him and tells him of Davos' promise to obtain Rickon. He returns to Winterfell- with Lightbringer- and reports that he has destroyed Stannis' army.

Unlikely, I know, but just a thought.

I don't think that's unlikely at all! Well done!

[FanTasy]

I think it would be a real stunt! :rolleyes: Manderley returning limping and bruised to Winterfell with a false report of Stannis' defeat. Ramsay writes his crazy letter. The Boltons and the Frey's eat some more pie, get drunk. Manderley opens the gates of Winterfell for Stannis.

[Candor]

Intriguing. Especially the description of Asha's delivery of the line: "The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains".

ETA: If someone is speaking through her, I'd rather it be Bloodraven than Bran.

This part particularly got me. If ever anyone was being warged in this scene, it'd be here.

ALSO! About the hair falling in Massey's eye thing, what is all that nonsense? It bothered me while reading: as "what am I supposed to be seeing here?"

[LordBloodraven]

This part particularly got me. If ever anyone was being warged in this scene, it'd be here.

ALSO! About the hair falling in Massey's eye thing, what is all that nonsense? It bothered me while reading: as "what am I supposed to be seeing here?"

He's the Justin Bieber of Westeros

[Candor]

Yeah, I think Stan's going to pull through here. GRRM seems to be building him up to really get one over on the Bastard of Bolton and his ragtag raid of uneasy traitors.

It'd be fitting, considering he didn't truly get to exact justice on other bastards he found out: ahem, the abominations like Joffrey.

[Pliskin]

I don't think she plans on taking Pyke by force. All she needs to do is show up with Theon and claim the previous Kingsmoot invalid.

You can't just come to the kingsmoot with six men, be elected and get the iron Islands. That's not how it works, dude.

Every participant at the previous one had a fleet, many lords with him as a backup...etc. As a persuasion force, but also in case things degenerate...

Asha fled when Euron got elected.

Asha can do nothing without Stannis.

[ShadowRaven]

Do you think this means we can expect TWOW end of 2012/2013? I mean, it seems like he's speeding up the pace?

[tze]

ALSO! About the hair falling in Massey's eye thing, what is all that nonsense? It bothered me while reading: as "what am I supposed to be seeing here?"

GRRM keeps presenting his readers with the image of a one-eyed man here: first with Crowfood, now with Massey. I think it's a literary hint that our favorite one-eyed greenseer is playing a role in how these events are unfolding (although we don't see him, his presence remains). Look at how Massey is described: with "thick straight hair so pale it seemed more white than gold." Picture that image, especially with the straight "white" hair falling in such a way that he appears to have only a single eye, and that's totally a Bloodraven hint.

Do you think this means we can expect TWOW end of 2012/2013? I mean, it seems like he's speeding up the pace?

Down that path lies nothing but sorrow and tears.

[Wouter]

Nice christmas present from Martin, great chapter (though in quality it is equivalent to Theon's ADWD chapters IMO - those were very good as well!).

So..

1) Stannis now knows the enemy is coming and can guesstimate arrival.

2) He has a "plan" of some sort involving a strategic advantage we are not entirely privy to.

3) He is facing his enemies' worst men.

4) He is facing an inexperienced commander.

5) His enemy will, in all likelihood, get stabbed in the back by Lord Manderly.

...

Yeah. He's definitely gonna lose.

Exactly - it already looked unlikely after ADWD that the letter was 100% truthful, after this chapter Stannis looks to have things well in hand. Stannis got no less then three warnings about the Karstarks it seems; Jon's letter (probably), Tycho telling him in person and likely Theon telling him as well. And thus he duly took the traitorous part of the family out while even preserving their army for later use.

He seems to be setting a trap, and with Manderly very likely to turn on Freys and Boltons during the battle, it's looking good for Stannis as far as the battle outside Winterfell goes. He still has to take the castle afterwards though, and here is where we suspect he may have send Manderly, with his "magic" sword, back to the castle to make a false report to the Boltons. I just wonder if this means neither Ramsay nor Roose went out in the snow, or if one of them died in the likely ambush (between Stannis and Manderly) and the other (probably Roose himself, if so) wrote the letter.

Another possibility is that Theon, after being saved by "divine intervention" at the heart tree, will be used to sneak a force into the castle to open the gates. He has experience doing just that and could be useful, if Manderly would not get back inside the castle with his forces.

I'm surprised so many people seem to think that just about everybody but the Boltons wrote the infamous letter. I really don't see a possible motive for any but the Boltons to write it, and all the proposed motives for Asha/Massey/Theon/Stannis etc seem unbelievable to me.

Jeyne continuing to masquerade as Arya, at Theon's instigation (not good advice for Jeyne IMO), surprised me and does not bode well for her. Jeyne now lied to the King, that can't be good with Stannis. Moreover, if indeed Massey would end up taking her along to Braavos should he arrive at the wall with Jon dead, the real Arya would almost certainly cross her path and I truly hope Arya won't end up killing Jeyne. I hope that, in the case of a meeting, she will want to find out why she is claiming that identity and find out how Jeyne has been treated, and by whom. Arya going off to wreak vengeance on LF and/or Boltons is great, Arya killing Jeyne isn't.

Speaking about Massey, the trouble for him, apart from the uncertain situation at the wall, is that most of the sellsword companies seem to be otherwise engaged. A lot of them are fighting in Slaver's Bay, and we know what the Golden Company is doing (hint: probably exactly what Stannis and Massey discussed about them in this very chapter, attempting to raise a Blackfyre to the throne!). Assuming he will continue his mission, he will likely have to be happy with Braavosi swords only.

ASOIAF is really hard to predict when it comes to predicting which king or queen will end up on top. Stannis is acting really kingly in this chapter, and he now seems to have full backing from Braavos (I guess the Iron Bank of Braavos and the Sealord of Braavos see eye-to-eye on this stuff, and maybe the Faceless Man as well). Stannis himself may be torn between the northmen/old Gods and the queen's men/Melisandre, the way he is going (though he could do a Victarion and attempt to play both at once - Melisandre would be displeased but she wouldn't drop her AA candidate). One gets the idea Stannis is quite likely to win the north, both in loyalty and military.

However, there is also Aegon with the GC who may make great gains in the south for a while, and there is the eventual coming of Dany. And the latters dragons are likely to play a part against the Others, with Dany apparently also going to slay some lies regarding puppet dragons and blue-eyed kings who cast no shadow. Will Dany and Stannis fight or will they ally (if only temporarily) against the Others? What will Braavos do, with Stannis being their chosen champion now but Dany being the anti-slavery crusader (should also sound attractive to Braavos, of all places!). And there is also Jon's true parentage bubbling under the surface.

[Candor]

GRRM keeps presenting his readers with the image of a one-eyed man here: first with Crowfood, now with Massey. I think it's a literary hint that our favorite one-eyed greenseer is playing a role in how these events are unfolding (although we don't see him, his presence remains). Look at how Massey is described: with "thick straight hair so pale it seemed more white than gold." Picture that image, especially with the straight "white" hair falling in such a way that he appears to have only a single eye, and that's totally a Bloodraven hint.

All he's missing is the albino skin, and the rather recognizable birthmark xD But I see your point. I'll have to consider that when I re-read this chapter.

[FanTasy]

GRRM keeps presenting his readers with the image of a one-eyed man here: first with Crowfood, now with Massey. I think it's a literary hint that our favorite one-eyed greenseer is playing a role in how these events are unfolding (although we don't see him, his presence remains). Look at how Massey is described: with "thick straight hair so pale it seemed more white than gold." Picture that image, especially with the straight "white" hair falling in such a way that he appears to have only a single eye, and that's totally a Bloodraven hint.

:agree: , I had the same impression and tried to find more information about House Massey.

From the Wiki: When Lord Bloodraven marched on Whitewalls to quash the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, among the lords who came in support was House Massey.

[Candor]

:agree: , I had the same impression and tried to find more information about House Massey.

From the Wiki: When Lord Bloodraven marched on Whitewalls to quash the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, among the lords who came in support was House Massey.

Were there any Masseys in the Raven's Teeth, I wonder?

[Lord Varys]

The Braavosi don't like slavery. But they also do not like dragons. They won't back Daenerys. And the Iron Bank is in my opinion still some kind of facade for the Faceless Men, in my opinion.

Massey might have problems hiring Free Companies, but we don't know how much of them are in Essos. During Arya's chapters we learned that Sealord of Braavos was dying. Somehow I'd not be surprised if the next Sealord is going to support Stannis with his own men. If the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men consider this the best action to prevent the restoration of the dragonlords in Westeros, and see this as the best way to get their money back, too, I can see that happening.

And Braavos is the greatest naval power in this part of the world. They could cause great trouble for any opponents in Westeros. Especially to King's Landing.

[Candor]

The Braavosi don't like slavery. But they also do not like dragons. They won't back Daenerys. And the Iron Bank is in my opinion still some kind of facade for the Faceless Men, in my opinion.

Iron Bank.... The Faceless Men have Iron Coins, which is how Arya got there.

HMMMM!

It is known.

[Nev yn]

Somehow I'd not be surprised if the next Sealord is going to support Stannis with his own men. If the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men consider this the best action to prevent the restoration of the dragonlords in Westeros, and see this as the best way to get their money back, too, I can see that happening.

This makes me wonder: the Braavosi being as anti-dragon as they are, why did the Sealord help broker the marriage deal between Arianne and Viserys? That must have seemed like the opposite of preventing the restoration of the dragonlords. If Doran Martell had been actually helping Viserys and Danerys behind the scenes instead of just letting them flounder alone, that deal would have really meant something with regard to Targaryen restoration.

[Neo]

How good was it to have Theon and Stannis in the same chapter! Two of the best characters in the entire series bought together in one POV.

Stannis referring to Joffrey as a 'baseborn abomination' yet again was great too. :lol:

Brilliant chapter, but I want MORE!

[Candor]

This makes me wonder: the Braavosi being as anti-dragon as they are, why did the Sealord help broker the marriage deal between Arianne and Viserys? That must have seemed like the opposite of preventing the restoration of the dragonlords. If Doran Martell had been actually helping Viserys and Danerys behind the scenes instead of just letting them flounder alone, that deal would have really meant something with regard to Targaryen restoration.

Is this the same Sealord that is dying, though? Because the point could become null.

[Ice Turtle]

This makes me wonder: the Braavosi being as anti-dragon as they are, why did the Sealord help broker the marriage deal between Arianne and Viserys? That must have seemed like the opposite of preventing the restoration of the dragonlords. If Doran Martell had been actually helping Viserys and Danerys behind the scenes instead of just letting them flounder alone, that deal would have really meant something with regard to Targaryen restoration.

it is not the Targs that are problem, its the dragons as a weapon no one can triumph, without dragons Targs are bad joke. Though, I wonder too what game was the old sealord playing. Maybe Targs had unpaid debts too?

[Wouter]

The Braavosi don't like slavery. But they also do not like dragons.

Where is it stated that they don't like dragons? I remember that they are against the Valyrian empire, but that was because this empire practiced(large-scale) slavery, not necessarily because they had dragons.

If the dragons are used by the side who wants to eradicate slavery, I think that may be just fine from their POV, even if deep down they would prefer no one (themselves excepted) to wield such powerful weapons.

Still, it's not like Braavos was constantly at war (or sending assassins) with the Seven Kingdoms while the Targs still had their dragons.

[Candor]

Where is it stated that they don't like dragons? I remember that they are against the Valyrian empire, but that was because this empire practiced(large-scale) slavery, not necessarily because they had dragons.

If the dragons are used by the side who wants to eradicate slavery, I think that may be just fine from their POV, even if deep down they would prefer no one (themselves excepted) to wield such powerful weapons.

Still, it's not like Braavos was constantly at war (or sending assassins) with the Seven Kingdoms while the Targs still had their dragons.

From the tv show, a quote:

"Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight's dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo's dance, the water dance, swift and sudden."

Perhaps the Braavosi are subtle, maybe in the Doran way, waiting for the right opportunity.