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Hmm. I though the age of heroes ended when the Andals came.

I'm really confused about this part of history, but it feels like we are suppose to be. :)

What makes me think that the Long Night ended the Age of heroes is that an event like this usually is so significant that it's referred to as a start or end of an Age, and that the one that fought the Others is known as the Last Hero. Why the epithet if there were heroes after him?

I pulled this out of the wiki and concordance section of the citadel So apparently the Age of Heroes was all the good times between COTF and FM, following the pact at the Isle of Faces. The Long Night ended that age and started the current one.

I saw that page on the Wiki too, but i couldn't find the reference in the literature to the statement that it actually ended the Age of heroes, so maybe it's not said in the books anywhere

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We also know that Craster and his wives and daughters were spared more trouble from the Others because of it, so there must be a benefit for both parties in this interaction.

I don’t know who posted the quote above, I’ve copied + pasted from mor2’s post... But I’ve been thinking a lot about this; about Craster and his wives/daughters being spared, and I’m not entirely sure that’s true. I don’t know if this is going to make any sense – it does in my head, but my head is a funny place – bear with me... We are told Craster and his wives/daughters are somehow protected because of the sacrifice Craster makes of his sons, but we don’t actually know whether this is true. It may be true in Craster’s perception, and even in his wives’ perceptions, but it isn’t necessarily true. There may be other reasons for the WWs to be leaving them alone – and I’m not even sure they are being left alone. For all we know, the WWs may consider them unimportant, or there may be something about the locale where Craster’s Keep is, or any number of explanations. Of course, it could be because of the sacrifice, but it’s not a certainty, imo. :dunno:

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We also know that Craster and his wives and daughters were spared more trouble from the Others because of it, so there must be a benefit for both parties in this interaction.

I don’t know who posted the quote above, I’ve copied + pasted from mor2’s post... But I’ve been thinking a lot about this; about Craster and his wives/daughters being spared, and I’m not entirely sure that’s true. I don’t know if this is going to make any sense – it does in my head, but my head is a funny place – bear with me... We are told Craster and his wives/daughters are somehow protected because of the sacrifice Craster makes of his sons, but we don’t actually know whether this is true. It may be true in Craster’s perception, and even in his wives’ perceptions, but it isn’t necessarily true. There may be other reasons for the WWs to be leaving them alone – and I’m not even sure they are being left alone. For all we know, the WWs may consider them unimportant, or there may be something about the locale where Craster’s Keep is, or any number of explanations. Of course, it could be because of the sacrifice, but it’s not a certainty, imo. :dunno:

The Craster situation is also very confusing to me to be honest (I'm a confused person :)), because I can't figure out how he ever started sacrificing.

Let's go through this properly. If there is no gain for Craster by doing these sacrifices, why does he do it? Maybe he just want to rid himself of male family members for selfish reasons. If so he simply takes the boys out in the woods and leave them, to be rid of them. But, the Others come to collect as we see when Sam takes Gilly and leave. The older wife sensed the cold coming and said they were coming for the boy, so it makes me think that this part is as it seems, she expected it to happen the way it happened and she had experienced the same thing before.

Even if Craster's family is perhaps not exactly spared, meaning that they would not have been killed were it not for the sacrifices, the Others let them be and only takes the boys. If Craster had refused to give them the boys what would have happened? We can only guess.

At the time we are introduced to Craster's traditions, when Sam and the NW brothers seek shelter there, his family is the only one left, all the others villages have been emptied and their people have fled to join Mance or gone south (perhaps other places too, but those are the destinations we know of). The emptying of the land started a while back but Craster stayed at his place, so he does not feel as endangered as the rest of the people I think.

There could of course be other reasons for him and his being left alone, but we have no indication to what that could be as far as I know.

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Going to spoiler tag this thought in relation to our TWOW gift, and here since I'm thinking in terms of skinchanging and Hodor implications that we in this thread have dove into quite a bit...

I don't think Bran is communicating through the weirwoods. We've thrown that thought around a bit that Bran is naturally more powerful than Bloodraven because he spoke to Theon. We've also wondered about long-distance skinchanging and if the Wall blocks that connection and yada yada yada. From a specific circumstance parallel, Theon has lost much of his skin and has a obviously damaged Psyche.

Whether it's Bran is simply that good of a skin changer, the weirwoods act as a receiver transmitter proxy for him, my gut reaction is Bran saying Theon's name at winterfell was a skinchanging style entering his mind, not spoken words through the tree.

Going forward to our TWOW chapter, I can't buy Bran is controlling Asha. I can buy Bran/BR want Theon to be near the tree, and I can buy that the Mormont's are involved in a lot more than we know yet. My inkling is Bran would like to skinchange fully into Theon to speak with Stannis. He saw Asha at the weirwood, and perhaps had more ravens saying things like "tree!" for days to keep it constant in her head, but my gut there is just her thinking to save Theon the pain of burning alive. Mormont giving her more and more Northern background and lore, and Asha getting fed up with her do nothing say nothing role as Stannis' captive, and seeing this as a piece of agency that she has.

Other piece for that chapter. The Raven's quorked "tree!" well before Asha was in the room, and specifically when Stannis started to speak about their advantages from their surrounding. At first I thought the implication was hiding in the trees, but the more it incubates in my head that weirwood tree seems to be key to much more. Stannis seems remarkably better in this chapter than he did before. Mel can't scry her beloved Azor Ahai. He conveniently had his march stopped at this point. Whether all of this is a side effect of a greater purpose, all happenstance, there seems to be a link in my mind. I believe the proximity of this weirwood either as a natural defense or a specific effect from Bran's/BR's use of the tree as a proxy, they are causing mel's issues with scrying Stannis. And that severance with her has helped Stannis recover from the drain her actions on him have taken.

On a related note, but not neccesary detail specific to that chapter, I'm becoming extra curious about the Mormonts. Besides that their banner has a direct tie-in to the old races with the giant breaking the chains, there just really are very few prominent women in the north. We've met the Mormonts and Lady Barbrey Ryswell(Dustin). We conveniently have a Mormont that's paramount to Jon's story and in Dany's story. There's not much mystical about either Mormont Male, but I'm still curious why Alysane took Asha to a Weirwood. Just felt like being religious and bringing someone new with her?

The woman thing strikes me also because for better or worse, women are more tied to magic or older dangerous magic in a lot of fantasy and specifically this story. It's Quaithe that can project seemingly from any distance, it's Mirri Maz Duur that brings blood and shadow magic into the fold. Melisandre has displayed the most magic on the page, the stories of Sheira Seastar and Jenny of Oldstones, Maggy the Frog and the Ghost of High Heart are more numerous than the Bloodraven/Jojen counterpoint. And Bran's vision into the past had the sacrifice ordered and guided by a woman.

Back to that chapter...

I also have my doubts about Massey, and with how good Stannis is with sniffing out false and bad motive in those around him, if there's something to fear about Massey, Stannis probably is aware of it. He specifcally has Alysane Mormont as "Arya"s female companion. Besides the fact there is a dirth of females, and Stannis specifically keeping Asha as something to control Massey's ambitions with, I think Stannis chose those words to keep Massey's guard down. Alysane can probably deal with him in a heartbeat if needed, and perhaps he knows the Mormonts have some gravity with the North beyond just how respected their house is but something deeper. My mind's going in too many directions, hopefully I can solidify how I really should be looking at these details in the nearish future.

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I'm really confused about this part of history, but it feels like we are suppose to be. :)

What makes me think that the Long Night ended the Age of heroes is that an event like this usually is so significant that it's referred to as a start or end of an Age, and that the one that fought the Others is known as the Last Hero. Why the epithet if there were heroes after him?

Surprisingly enough, the passage from the Citadel quoted by Revenge of the Starks is based on a single history lesson by Maester Luwin in AGoT Bran 6 and can be distilled as follows.

During the Dawn Age, Westeros was inhabited only by the Children, but 12,000 years ago the First Men arrived with horses and bronze weapons. Despite the breaking of the land-bridge to Essos a series of destructive wars followed with the Children getting the worst of it until “the wise of both races prevailed” and the Pact was forged on the island in God’s Eye. The Pact then lasted for 4,000 years through the Age of Heroes, the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms until the coming of the Andals, brought hundreds of years of war during which the six southern kingdoms were taken over by the Andals and from which the surviving Children fled north.

The Wiki puts the Long Night at 8,000 years ago and the coming of the Andals with their iron swords at 6,000 years ago, which by my feeble arithmetic would give us 2,000 years of war between the Children and the First Men, then 2,000 years for the Age of Heroes until the Long Night, and 2,000 more after it until the Andals turned up, during which 2,000 years the Seven Kingdoms were founded

While the story seems straightforward enough it does raise a couple of awkward questions. In the first place Osha (remember her? - big lass from up north of the Wall) is sitting in and irritating Maester Luwin. When Bran reminds him that he said the Children were all gone, she interrupts, saying “North of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races.” We know of course that this is true, but Osha also seems to be hinting at more – that north of the Wall their version of history is different.

Part of that difference has got to be whatever happened in the North. Osha reminds us that it wasn’t just a matter of the Children; there were the giants and the other “old races” as well, but even if we stick with the Children we’re told that they were slaughtered and burned out of their weirwoods in the six southern kingdoms, but instead of taking refuge with the Starks they “fled north…” (another classic GRRM interruption at this point, this time from Summer). This might simply be because they didn’t feel safe, but the Pact ought to have counted for something and the fact Maester Luwin’s narrative was interrupted at a point where he’d already said the Pact ended does suggest that he may have been about to tell why the Children kept on going up into the Badlands beyond the Wall and so disappeared from the sight of men. As I say, Osha does seem to hint that they tell the story differently up there.

At first sight the Age of Heroes seems straightforward enough, we’re told by Maester Luwin that they were represented at the Gods Eye by their chiefs and heroes – who sound very Celtic, while as we know it was the Last Hero who sought out the Children during the Long Night, hence the end of the Age of Heroes. The problem with this is the business of the Children giving the Watch 100 obsidian daggers each year during the Age of Heroes, because at that time there was no Wall and no Watch.

Now this may be explainable enough given the limitations of chronicling events thousands of years ago, but every “explanation” only underlines the fact that what we’ve been served up as history isn’t reliable.

So in this case here, is the dating out, or did the Watch predate the Wall?

During the negotiations at the Gods Eye the Children were represented by their greenseers and wood dancers. Given the way so many things are balanced, while the greenseers are obviously the equivalent of the chiefs and wise men, the wood dancers must be their heroes – the ones wearing the stealth armour;

“In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood.”

So like that worn by the White Walkers, which: “seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on the water with every step it took.”

There’s also of course the synonymity between wood dancers and Syrio Forel’s water dancers, again reflected in the way the Walkers move.

As part of the Pact was the Watch originally established to ensure that the First Men kept to the coastlands, high plains and bright meadows, while the wood dancers did the same on the other side – and did the Watch and the Wood Dancers exchange children and daggers?

Was the Long Night unleashed because the First Men broke the Pact by deposing the Lord Commander we now know as the Nights King? Remember that it was a Stark of Winterfell and Joruman of the Wildlings - the free folk who don't kneel and presumably thumbed their noses at the Pact.

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Thanks for laying out the evidence so methodically. I would never have thought to look twice at the description of greenseers and wood dancers at the signing of the pact, but wood dancers almost certainly refers to warriors. A "dance" is always a conflict, a sparring between individuals or forces--Dance of Dragons, Royce in the prologue of GoT telling the WW to dance with him, water dancers, etc.

I had a suspicion that the NW was created before the end of the Long Night solely because of that wild song sung at Winterfell in a GoT Bran POV where they mention the NW charging against the Others in the Long Night, but didn't follow up on this because it made my head hurt :drunk:

If it's true that the watch was established with the pact, then we have to consider the role of the Wall in relation to the Watch. Is it then BS that the Wall was built by BB at the end of the age of heroes, or did the NW have duties that they were able to carry out way before the wall ever existed? And if the latter, then why exactly was the Wall constructed?

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Black Crow, nice post!

The timeline you put forth is the same as what I thought. The Age of Heroes ended with the Long night, and the Seven Kingdoms were formed in the 2000 years after this until the Andals came. That is why I thought it was strange that it was during the Age of heroes that the Children gave the First Men the obsidian. This is very interesting! Or maybe the historical record Sam found was just, you know wrong... Maybe it didn't occur until the Wall was built.

The wood dancers must have been their warriors, I proposed that in the original thread (I think it was) since a dance refers to conflict, war and fighting in GRRM-language. Just like the Water dancers as you say. Similar to Capoeira in RL, it's a dance, but not really, it is a martial art said to be deliberately changed to look like a dance to circumvent the law.

The description of the wood dancers sound a lot like the Others, but not entirely. There is of course the ice blue eyes, the pale white skin and that they only come when the white cold comes. These things feel off if they are Children, but that said they could be Children that have changed through sorcery. Or perhaps the wood dancers were preserved in ice and when they now reappear they are different, and they can only maintain their form in the cold, hence the magical white cold air that follows them?

The dragonglass gift still seem strange if they are in league with or created by the Children. So, were the wood dancers a different race? A third party at the signing of the pact? Maybe they were allies to the Children a long time ago, but this time around they are waging war against humans and Children both? Maybe their view on the pact is that it has been violated at this point.

A thing that caught my attention, according to Old Nan the White Walkers appeared during the long winter. I take that as they did not come right away, rather in the middle or some such. If the wood dancers have the ability to change their appearance and become camouflaged, they could have changed from using "earth-magic" to fade into the shades of the forest to "ice-magic" to camouflage in winter.

So maybe Ice dancers is a better name for them than White Walkers or Others. Just a thought!

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In the end of the last thread it was brought up that the Others are so few because of the connection to Craster's sons (I think it's been mentioned a few times before too), and this could very well be the case.

If Craster is the first in a long time to sacrifice to the Others, how did he start? Who negotiated the deal? If his sons are the Others, who made the first son into an Other? If you believe the Children=Others theory there is little problem with this, but I'm not subscribing to that theory yet, so how can this issue be explained?

Maybe the Others from the long night did not die, but as the stories say, lived on through the years, hidden or sleeping. Maybe the Others are old ghosts that can manifest in the form of ice, through bloodmagic, we just don't know the practicalities of this :) This subject is very hard to come to any conclusion on for me, there is so little information.

This is one issue (among many) that does my head in. It's, yet again, a 'chicken or the egg' kinda question, and one we won't be able to figure out without more clues and info, IMO.

I definitely think there is a parallel between Joramun and the Wildlings in present time and events. It's a reminder I think, that to make it through these hard times the north and the land beyond the Wall must unite their forces. But I don't know it there is more to it.

Me too. It makes me think of 'history repeats itself', and I think this notion applies to several elements in the story; I think it's very important...

:-)

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So maybe Ice dancers is a better name for them than White Walkers or Others. Just a thought!

:agree:

You see I don't think the similarities are co-incidental, while the differences as you suggest could be accounted for by adapting their camoflage to the local conditions. There's still more of this to think through but given the way they appear to be able to manifest themselves rather than plod around like the rest of us, I still have a suspicion that some kind of very clever warging is involved, which again might point to a connection with the Children without ruling out human children such as Craster's sons being trained up to do the same.

If this is the case I also have another nagging little suspicion. We've seen few enough of the Children, so few that Bloodraven has been co-opted in as something akin to a greenseer and Bran brought north likewise - yet when he went a wandering in the caves he found that chamber full of children in the weirwood roots, most seemingly asleep, but some watching him. Are these the Wood Dancers? If so, that's what's been happening to Craster's sons; enfolded into the weirwood roots and trained up to be Wood Dancers - or Ice Dancers.

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If this is the case I also have another nagging little suspicion. We've seen few enough of the Children, so few that Bloodraven has been co-opted in as something akin to a greenseer and Bran brought north likewise - yet when he went a wandering in the caves he found that chamber full of children in the weirwood roots, most seemingly asleep, but some watching him. Are these the Wood Dancers? If so, that's what's been happening to Craster's sons; enfolded into the weirwood roots and trained up to be Wood Dancers - or Ice Dancers.

The sons are put in the cradles, their glamours are active in the field? Like that opera-loving Doctor in Star Trek, who lived in the computer but who was active as a hologram?

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The sons are put in the cradles, their glamours are active in the field?

That's basically what I'm thinking. If the originalGreenseers and Wood Dancers are almost totally blended into the trees and the rest of the Children don't appear to be breeding more, so just as humans such as Bloodraven and Bran are being co-opted to do their greenseeing, why shouldn't they acquire other humans to do their dancing?

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I went back to ACoK to check some things... And I'm sure this had been discussed in old threads but I have actually not found any posts about it in my search, so here we go. Forgive me if this is old news, I read the books rather recently so I have not been present to discuss it before.

In ACoK Jon chapter, when he is about to leave the Fist of First Men with Qhorin Halfhand:

Mormont: "May the Gods forgive me. Choose your men."

Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow."

<snip>

"The old gods are strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men. . . and the Starks."

Wait a minute... the First Men, AND the Starks? :eek:

I don't even remember if I reacted to that when reading. Did anyone else find Qhorins wording strange? And why did he stare down Jon and ask for him especially? As Mormont says, Jon isn't even a ranger. Just a sort of Stark. I have a feeling that was about something else than just wanting a Stark (sort of) to go on his ranging because they have a reputation of being capable or cold resistant.

Qhorin was a capable man and honourable, and knowledgeable of the free folk and their beliefs I would like to think. Jon thought he had went further into the north than any living man. Did he know something about the free folks feelings towards Starks? Or of some connection between the Starks and the old gods? I have a feeling he did. But since he is dead we might never know. One of those mysteries perhaps.

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I went back to ACoK to check some things... And I'm sure this had been discussed in old threads but I have actually not found any posts about it in my search, so here we go. Forgive me if this is old news, I read the books rather recently so I have not been present to discuss it before.

In ACoK Jon chapter, when he is about to leave the Fist of First Men with Qhorin Halfhand:

Mormont: "May the Gods forgive me. Choose your men."

Qhorin Halfhand turned his head. His eyes met Jon's, and held them for a long moment. "Very well. I choose Jon Snow."

<snip>

"The old gods are strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men. . . and the Starks."

Wait a minute... the First Men, AND the Starks? :eek:

I don't even remember if I reacted to that when reading. Did anyone else find Qhorins wording strange? And why did he stare down Jon and ask for him especially? As Mormont says, Jon isn't even a ranger. Just a sort of Stark. I have a feeling that was about something else than just wanting a Stark (sort of) to go on his ranging because they have a reputation of being capable or cold resistant.

Yes, I remember reading this. I read it as that the Starks still worship the old gods, the nameless gods of the First Men.

Halfhand chosing rookie Jon could seem odd. But Jon is a Stark and kin of the lost chief ranger.

Halfhand probably knew that Jon was well trained by the master of arms at Winterfell and probably saw with his own eyes that Jon was good with swords during the daily training sessions.

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That's basically what I'm thinking. If the originalGreenseers and Wood Dancers are almost totally blended into the trees and the rest of the Children don't appear to be breeding more, so just as humans such as Bloodraven and Bran are being co-opted to do their greenseeing, why shouldn't they acquire other humans to do their dancing?

And not just any humans. Crasters and Starks. And Blackwoods, you know the ones with a weirwood on their arms :)

Another thought on the Ice dancers, they could be humans that had learnt the magic of the wood dancers, and put their own spin on it via ice - similar procedure - different magic. (Just like Melisandre). Scary coldblooded humans... hmmm

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With regard to the wood dancers, Jojen says that Meera can "breathe mud and fly through leaves", and Meera's story states that the crannogman can "run on leaves", among other things. This makes me think of those martial arts movies where combat takes place high in the tree tops - and we've seen Arya practicing her "needlework" in the branches of the weirwoods. Maybe this is what a "wood dancer" refers to?

I'm not entirely convinced that the Children are the White Walkers. The White Walkers are described as tall and gaunt - not at all like the way the Children are described - but I do agree that their armor is seemingly like the camouflage armor the Children were reputed to wear. I'm still feeling that the White Walkers are spirit manifestations of humans - maybe human/Children hybrids - and I think there is a Stark connection here. Another thing - after the sack of Winterfell and we're seeing through Summer's POV, Summer thinks:

Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin

So wolves and White Walkers both seem to be dismayed by fire and iron; they also both hunt at night, and seek out the hot blood of living things. Maybe nothing more than an interesting parallel, but it did jump out at me.

With regards to Craster, does it seem strange that Craster's mother (apparently a wildling woman from Whitetree village) was driven off by the Night's Watch when she tried to bring her newborn son to his crow father on the Wall? Didn't the Watch have a habit of taking in these unwanted babies? Also, Dywen says that Craster "was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons." It's the "trafficking with slavers and demons" comment that pinged my radar. Slavers and demons makes me think of Hardhome, although the cataclysm at Hardhome happened centuries ago, and I can't think of how Craster might be involved with slavers. Is there some unknown (to us) slave trade happening north of the Wall?

.

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Yes, I remember reading this. I read it as that the Starks still worship the old gods, the nameless gods of the First Men. Halfhand chosing rookie Jon could seem odd. But Jon is a Stark and kin of the lost chief ranger. Halfhand probably knew that Jon was well trained by the master of arms at Winterfell and probably saw with his own eyes that Jon was good with swords during the daily training sessions.

You don't think he differentiated between the First Men and the Starks? As in the Starks are something else, slightly different than plain old First Men?

Oh well, maybe he just meant he wanted one that followed the old gods. It just jumped at me when I re-read that part just now. What I thought was interesting was that he wanted Jon to come with him in his party, not any of the other ranging parties which all had good men with them too. He was asked to choose men for himself, and he only said Jon Snow. Later the matter was settled as to who else was going with whom, but he specifically wanted Jon. The boy with the direwolf. Qhorin knew both Eddard and Rickard so that could have played a big part of course. I think Qhorin knew Mance too but that is another matter...

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Wait wait, back up a sec, you guys are blowing my mind.

If this is the case I also have another nagging little suspicion. We've seen few enough of the Children, so few that Bloodraven has been co-opted in as something akin to a greenseer and Bran brought north likewise - yet when he went a wandering in the caves he found that chamber full of children in the weirwood roots, most seemingly asleep, but some watching him. Are these the Wood Dancers? If so, that's what's been happening to Craster's sons; enfolded into the weirwood roots and trained up to be Wood Dancers - or Ice Dancers.

In this scene I thought the "children" were Children as in COTF. It struck me as odd that they were all male while the active COTF in the cave are female, but I seriously just thought they were COTF. Are you saying that you think they're literally Craster's human sons? Aghh, I borrowed ADWD, don't have a copy of my own. Even so, I reread Bran's chapters twice and I always got the impression they were COTF

ETA: The general idea of weirwood bound entities casting the WW holds up with me, just need clarification on the Caster issue

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Going to spoiler tag this thought in relation to our TWOW gift, and here since I'm thinking in terms of skinchanging and Hodor implications that we in this thread have dove into quite a bit...

I don't think Bran is communicating through the weirwoods. We've thrown that thought around a bit that Bran is naturally more powerful than Bloodraven because he spoke to Theon. We've also wondered about long-distance skinchanging and if the Wall blocks that connection and yada yada yada. From a specific circumstance parallel, Theon has lost much of his skin and has a obviously damaged Psyche. Whether it's Bran is simply that good of a skin changer, the weirwoods act as a receiver transmitter proxy for him, my gut reaction is Bran saying Theon's name at winterfell was a skinchanging style entering his mind, not spoken words through the tree. Going forward to our TWOW chapter, I can't buy Bran is controlling Asha. I can buy Bran/BR want Theon to be near the tree, and I can buy that the Mormont's are involved in a lot more than we know yet. My inkling is Bran would like to skinchange fully into Theon to speak with Stannis. He saw Asha at the weirwood, and perhaps had more ravens saying things like "tree!" for days to keep it constant in her head, but my gut there is just her thinking to save Theon the pain of burning alive. Mormont giving her more and more Northern background and lore, and Asha getting fed up with her do nothing say nothing role as Stannis' captive, and seeing this as a piece of agency that she has. Other piece for that chapter. The Raven's quorked "tree!" well before Asha was in the room, and specifically when Stannis started to speak about their advantages from their surrounding. At first I thought the implication was hiding in the trees, but the more it incubates in my head that weirwood tree seems to be key to much more. Stannis seems remarkably better in this chapter than he did before. Mel can't scry her beloved Azor Ahai. He conveniently had his march stopped at this point. Whether all of this is a side effect of a greater purpose, all happenstance, there seems to be a link in my mind. I believe the proximity of this weirwood either as a natural defense or a specific effect from Bran's/BR's use of the tree as a proxy, they are causing mel's issues with scrying Stannis. And that severance with her has helped Stannis recover from the drain her actions on him have taken.

On a related note, but not neccesary detail specific to that chapter, I'm becoming extra curious about the Mormonts. Besides that their banner has a direct tie-in to the old races with the giant breaking the chains, there just really are very few prominent women in the north. We've met the Mormonts and Lady Barbrey Ryswell(Dustin). We conveniently have a Mormont that's paramount to Jon's story and in Dany's story. There's not much mystical about either Mormont Male, but I'm still curious why Alysane took Asha to a Weirwood. Just felt like being religious and bringing someone new with her? The woman thing strikes me also because for better or worse, women are more tied to magic or older dangerous magic in a lot of fantasy and specifically this story. It's Quaithe that can project seemingly from any distance, it's Mirri Maz Duur that brings blood and shadow magic into the fold. Melisandre has displayed the most magic on the page, the stories of Sheira Seastar and Jenny of Oldstones, Maggy the Frog and the Ghost of High Heart are more numerous than the Bloodraven/Jojen counterpoint. And Bran's vision into the past had the sacrifice ordered and guided by a woman. Back to that chapter...

I also have my doubts about Massey, and with how good Stannis is with sniffing out false and bad motive in those around him, if there's something to fear about Massey, Stannis probably is aware of it. He specifcally has Alysane Mormont as "Arya"s female companion. Besides the fact there is a dirth of females, and Stannis specifically keeping Asha as something to control Massey's ambitions with, I think Stannis chose those words to keep Massey's guard down. Alysane can probably deal with him in a heartbeat if needed, and perhaps he knows the Mormonts have some gravity with the North beyond just how respected their house is but something deeper. My mind's going in too many directions, hopefully I can solidify how I really should be looking at these details in the nearish future.

I like the idea of the weirwood significance.

I also thought about the reason for the raven screaming tree before Asha entered, but had not come up with anything so far. I think you are right about the raven, and I have long thought weirwood proximity is important since the free folk believe the trees can protect them from the white cold and/or white walkers or wights. It would be interesting to see how Melisandre can handle her powers of she ever comes to the Nightfort, where a weirwood sapling is growing, and the Black Gate is.

Thinking about the women's role, it's an old idea in real world history that women are connected more closely than men to nature and the mysteries of the moon, the tide and magic. But there is an ugly side to these ideas, whereas women are "wild", dangerous and morally weak men are rational, strong and in their right to "tame" these woman who can't take care of themselves. It's like the stories in ASoIaF of the mysterious women that seduces a man and he enslaves other men, i.e. the Other woman and the Night's King, the cold woman and the Shrouded Lord, and then Melisandre and Stannis. Women are dangerous... It fits with the ideology of Westeros' and Essos' patriarchal societies, but not with the overall story of ASoIaF. I'd like to think GRRM is not interested in portraying women as more prone to sorcery.

ETA: didn't Mirri Maz Duur learn about sorcery from Marwyn the mage? And just as Shiera was known for sorcery, so was Bloodraven...

I don't think Alysane Mormont taking Asha to the weirwood had much to do with them being women, but more because they were friends and Asha being an openminded person that took interest in these things, or simply because Alys wanted to go there and Asha had to come along since she was under her guard.

About the Mormonts, their sigil is not the giant breaking free, that is the Umbers.

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With regard to the wood dancers, Jojen says that Meera can "breathe mud and fly through leaves", and Meera's story states that the crannogman can "run on leaves", among other things. This makes me think of those martial arts movies where combat takes place high in the tree tops - and we've seen Arya practicing her "needlework" in the branches of the weirwoods. Maybe this is what a "wood dancer" refers to?

Yes yes please! The tree-ninjas are back...

The Reeds are the descendants of the wood dancers. Obviously ;)

And that makes the Starks their distant descendants too, a long long way back the King in the North married the Swamp Kings daughter no?.

I'm not entirely convinced that the Children are the White Walkers. The White Walkers are described as tall and gaunt - not at all like the way the Children are described - but I do agree that their armor is seemingly like the camouflage armor the Children were reputed to wear. I'm still feeling that the White Walkers are spirit manifestations of humans - maybe human/Children hybrids - and I think there is a Stark connection here. Another thing - after the sack of Winterfell and we're seeing through Summer's POV, Summer thinks:

So wolves and White Walkers both seem to be dismayed by fire and iron; they also both hunt at night, and seek out the hot blood of living things. Maybe nothing more than an interesting parallel, but it did jump out at me.

Right you are, this is a strong connection IMO. Great catch on Summer's thoughts here!

What do you think about my suggestion that at some point the wood dancers magic was "copied" by humans? But they used ice magic instead of earth magic, which would be the magic of choice of the Children and wood dancers.

With regards to Craster, does it seem strange that Craster's mother (apparently a wildling woman from Whitetree village) was driven off by the Night's Watch when she tried to bring her newborn son to his crow father on the Wall? Didn't the Watch have a habit of taking in these unwanted babies? Also, Dywen says that Craster "was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons." It's the "trafficking with slavers and demons" comment that pinged my radar. Slavers and demons makes me think of Hardhome, although the cataclysm at Hardhome happened centuries ago, and I can't think of how Craster might be involved with slavers. Is there some unknown (to us) slave trade happening north of the Wall?.

I think it was strange that they did not accept Craster, but it could have been a change in command that influenced the stand on such things, since they took Mance in some years later. (maybe 20 years?) Or maybe Craster's father was an important man on the Watch and they did not want to confront this issue. His mother was chased off by his father's brothers in the Watch, so maybe the father never knew about him.

Maybe the slavers and demons are one and the same? The Others? The rumour could be that he deals with demons, but the only thing the Watch have noticed is that his sons are given away, so it could be perceived like he is selling them.

In this scene I thought the "children" were Children as in COTF. It struck me as odd that they were all male while the active COTF in the cave are female, but I seriously just thought they were COTF. Are you saying that you think they're literally Craster's human sons? Aghh, I borrowed ADWD, don't have a copy of my own. Even so, I reread Bran's chapters twice and I always got the impression they were COTF

According to Bran they were singers, the name he calls the Children. So I think they are just that, CotF.

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ETA: didn't Mirri Maz Duur learn about sorcery from Marwyn the mage? And just as Shiera was known for sorcery, so was Bloodraven...

Marwyn taught MMD "secrets of the body" (and the common tongue) so she learned the blood magic elsewhere (probably Asshai, as she says she learned from shadowbinders there).

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