Heresy 3

[FanTasy]

Could it be the bit in AGoT Bran 1 where he has this conversation with Eddard, discussing the execution of Gared:

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him...

I have a feeling reference is made to this again later.

Yep, later on. In the Bran chapter just before he awakes and has his first instructions by Bloodraven, if I recall correctly.

[kissdbyfire]

Could it be the bit in AGoT Bran 1 where he has this conversation with Eddard, discussing the execution of Gared:

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him...

I have a feeling reference is made to this again later.

No... I remember this one well (it's one of my fave quotes), and I think you're right, it is referenced later - I think Bran thinks back on it. But the one I'm talking about is a different one... All I do remember is that it's about 'all men must (should?) know fear'. It stuck with me because it made me think of what @hotweaselsoup has quoted above. I'm trying to find it now, but no luck so far. I don't know how is the phrasing exactly, so I'm searching for 'fear' only, and it's a word that appears zillions of times... I also have a feeling it's from ADwD as that is the one I've been listening to the most, but I'm not sure... :bawl:

[Black Crow]

As I read your post I remembered something I've listened to that's been bugging me for a while now. I was on a bike ride and couldn't take notes or highlight the passage, then later I forgot all about it. :bang:

I don't remember who said, I can't even remember in which book it is, I'm searching for it now. But someone, somewhere, says something along the lines of 'for all men must know fear' (paraphrasing). Now, could this have anything to do with the thing Old Nan says that you've quoted? I think it makes sense, it's unnatural not to feel fear, and as far as we can tell, whatever the NK was trying to accomplish, it wasn't 'natural'. I hope I can find the bit saying 'all men should know fear' to see in what context it's said...

Got it, its actually the Old Nan bit describing him:

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Nights Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear."

[Eyron]

Gotta get going, just wanted to say Happy New Year everybody!!! See you all next year... :cheers:

[Summer snow]

Roose Bolton said that in a theon chapter, after theon described Ramsy's fighting style.

[kissdbyfire]

Got it, its actually the Old Nan bit describing him:

He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Nights Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear."

YES! Thank you!!! :bowdown:

So, it is perfectly tied in with the quote from @hotweaselsoup, right?

Guys, Happy 2012, I hope all your wishes do come true, sooner rather than later... (because they will come true!)...

:cheers:

[kissdbyfire]

Roose Bolton said that in a theon chapter, after theon described Ramsy's fighting style.

Sorry, Roose said 'that' what?

Cheers

[Summer snow]

i have mistaken. roose said:

"-he's not afraid of anyone, m'lord.

-he should be. fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit."

[Eyron]

Oh, so Ramsay knows no fear, just like the Night's King...

And he and Roose have those pale blue eyes, like chips of ice. hmmm.

On another note: It seems strange that the Night's King is remembered as the 13th Lord commander, if there was no Night's Watch before he started his shady business. If he wasn't the LC what was he? Or what was he LC over?

[Black Crow]

So here we are in the first day of the New Year and so as good a time as any to offer a new timeline which addresses the various problems and contradictions identified with the “official” one as laid out by Maester Luwin in AGoT Bran 6 and summarised by me up thread:

During the Dawn Age, Westeros was inhabited only by the Children, but 12,000 years ago the First Men arrived with horses and bronze weapons. Despite the breaking of the land-bridge to Essos a series of destructive wars followed with the Children getting the worst of it until “the wise of both races prevailed” and the Pact was forged on the island in God’s Eye. The Pact then lasted for 4,000 years through the Age of Heroes, the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms until the coming of the Andals, brought hundreds of years of war during which the six southern kingdoms were taken over by the Andals and from which the surviving Children fled north.

The Wiki puts the Long Night at 8,000 years ago and the coming of the Andals with their iron swords at 6,000 years ago, which by my feeble arithmetic would give us 2,000 years of war between the Children and the First Men, then 2,000 years for the Age of Heroes until the Long Night, and 2,000 more after it until the Andals turned up, during which 2,000 years the Seven Kingdoms were founded

The overall span of 12,000 years seems a bit problematic, but I doubt if shortening it impacts much on the sequence of events. The first important bit to look at is the Pact. If it took 2,000 years, or even a half or a quarter of that time before “the wise of both races prevailed” we’re talking about a war of attrition ended by mutual exhaustion rather than the victory of one side or the other.

This is important because later, when talking about the Long Night, Old Nan comments that in those days there were a hundred kingdoms of men, not seven, and this I think is the true origin of the Watch. Without the Iron Throne somebody had to enforce the Pact and ensure that the First Men kept to the coastlands, high plains and bright meadows. This I suggest explains why the Watch existed to receive those annual gifts of dragonglass before the Long Night. Now there is a time problem here in that according to Maester Luwin’s version of events and the dates in the Wiki, the Age of Heroes lasted 2,000 years until the Long Winter. In fact it could have been less – much less. The First Men are said to have been represented at the Gods Eye by their chiefs and heroes, while the Children were represented by their greenseers and wood dancers, so it would seem reasonable to extend the Age of Heroes further back to before the Pact to see the said Heroes performing their brave deeds against their counterparts, the Wood Dancers.

I doubt if this is controversial in itself, but it would allow a solution to the Night’s King business. If we go along with the Watch being set up to enforce the Pact, then we’re probably talking not much more than a century before he’s elected. Although not by name we’re told he married a White Walker and that the two of them ruled for 13 years before being overthrown by his brother and Joruman of the Wildlings.

Setting this incident before the Long Night and the building of the Wall, solves a number of problems; the gifts of dragonglass in the Age of Heroes, before the Long Night, the building of the Wall and the establishment of the Watch to man it; the question of how Joruman and Stark of Winterfell were able to ally and fight effectively together, and why Joruman and his people were comfortable to bury their dead and ultimately be buried themselves without fear of being turned into Wights.

Its also more explicable if we see it as Joruman and his people, not being “kneelers” wanting to move into the forest lands, but blocked by a Lord Commander and a Watch seen as all too cosy with the other lot, exchanging annual gifts; dragonglass on the one hand and children – perhaps originally as hostages – on the other, and him marrying a Wood Dancer or a Greenseer.

So they gang up on him in order to make their land grab. As noted by others, Old Nan says he was “cast down”, but there’s no mention of him dying in battle or afterwards being executed. Is the answer that in the wake of his defeat, the Children, as we’ve discussed before unleashed the Long Night, and that he and those still loyal to him became the first White Walkers, hence his sobriquet the Night’s King?

Eventually the Last Hero makes it to the Children, says sorry, and as Capon Breath suggested on the first thread, they threw up the Wall to contain the winter they’d magically unleashed.

Afterwards the First Men are then too busy rebuilding and hammering each other down from 100 kingdoms to Seven to bother the Children, until the Andals turn up with their iron weapons.

Now at this point I think we need to digress into a bit of theology. The Andals, we’re told, brought the Faith of the Seven to Westeros, but is it co-incidental that the seven points of the star correspond with the Seven kingdoms of Westeros? What makes me wonder you see is that the similarity between certain parts of the Nights Watch oath and prayers to R’hllor, together with the involvement of a steel sword wielding Azor Ahai in the Battle for the Dawn, supposedly fought by the Watch, point to the Red Lot. Were the first Andals originally followers of R’hllor, who eventually separated out the different faces of their one god into the seven deities for the seven kingdoms?

If this is the case then the Battle for the Dawn was what led to the Children and the “other old races” fleeing north of the Wall.

What I haven’t figured out, is why the Children didn’t hang around in the Kingdom of the North, which didn’t fall to the Andals and suggestions are cordially invited.

There is one other little thought to leave you with. If the Faith of the Seven was originally that of R’hllor adapted to the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, is its seven pointed star the star or stars of the prophecy?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The overall span of 12,000 years seems a bit problematic, but I doubt if shortening it impacts much on the sequence of events.

Makes sense.

The first important bit to look at is the Pact. If it took 2,000 years, or even a half or a quarter of that time before “the wise of both races prevailed” we’re talking about a war of attrition ended by mutual exhaustion rather than the victory of one side or the other.

:agree:

Without the Iron Throne somebody had to enforce the Pact and ensure that the First Men kept to the coastlands, high plains and bright meadows. This I suggest explains why the Watch existed to receive those annual gifts of dragonglass before the Long Night.

This is where I think you get into trouble. The division of lands seems to be based on economic factors- agriculturists (First Men) vs hunter/gatherers (CotF). There would be a natural separation between the two groups. No special enforcement group would be needed. And what good is dragonglass, if there are no WW to stick with it? The first WW are said to have appeared with the Long Winter.

it would seem reasonable to extend the Age of Heroes further back to before the Pact to see the said Heroes performing their brave deeds against their counterparts, the Wood Dancers.

Just to clarify, are you saying, "If there was an Age of Heros, then the Heros had to have an opponent to fight (in a heroic manner, of course)?" If so, then maybe you're right on redefining the dates of the AoH.

Setting this incident before the Long Night and the building of the Wall, solves a number of problems;

But creates the rather large problem of a WW being seen before the Long Winter, when they were first seen. I think you need to address that.

The Andals, we’re told, brought the Faith of the Seven to Westeros, but is it co-incidental that the seven points of the star correspond with the Seven kingdoms of Westeros? What makes me wonder you see is that the similarity between certain parts of the Nights Watch oath and prayers to R’hllor, together with the involvement of a steel sword wielding Azor Ahai in the Battle for the Dawn, supposedly fought by the Watch, point to the Red Lot. Were the first Andals originally followers of R’hllor, who eventually separated out the different faces of their one god into the seven deities for the seven kingdoms?

The link between the Faith of the Seven and the Andal Invasion is incredibly well supported. Westerosi legends, Westerosi achaeology (rock carvings where the Andals landed), and legends from Andalos in Essos all support it. The religions themselves are vastly different (a One-that-is-Seven for the Faith vs a classic binary good-fights-evil for the Red Lot). This one is too much of a stretch, IMO.

What I haven’t figured out, is why the Children didn’t hang around in the Kingdom of the North, which didn’t fall to the Andals and suggestions are cordially invited.

Maybe there are still some CotF south of the Wall, but in hiding. Or they just died out- they have a very low birth rate. They seem to understand that they will soon be extinct.

[Black Crow]

This is where I think you get into trouble. The division of lands seems to be based on economic factors- agriculturists (First Men) vs hunter/gatherers (CotF). There would be a natural separation between the two groups.

The problem would be the classic one of clearing forest lands to plant crops

[Black Crow]

The link between the Faith of the Seven and the Andal Invasion is incredibly well supported. Westerosi legends, Westerosi achaeology (rock carvings where the Andals landed), and legends from Andalos in Essos all support it. The religions themselves are vastly different (a One-that-is-Seven for the Faith vs a classic binary good-fights-evil for the Red Lot). This one is too much of a stretch, IMO.

Not if the One-that-is Seven was originally R'hllor - religions evolve just as society does over thousands of years.

[Black Crow]

But creates the rather large problem of a WW being seen before the Long Winter, when they were first seen. I think you need to address that.

Acknowledged, but it avoids a whole lot of other problems.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Not if the One-that-is Seven was originally R'hllor - religions evolve just as society does over thousands of years.

But the Andals were literate, which would vastly slow down any major changes to the core beliefs. There would always be some texts that could be consulted, reducing mistakes made by oral transmission. And I don't see any way R'hllorism could evolve into the Faith- they are utterly different religions.

Plus (since we're messing with dates), the date of 6000BL for the Andal Invasion is recognized in the text as incredibly unreliable. The legend of Alyssa's Tears puts it at 6000BL. But Hoster Blackwood says that True History puts the Andal Invasion at 4000BL, and some maesters argue for 2000BL. (aDwD p643). That doesn't seem like enough time for that big of a change.

[FanTasy]

I am impressed, guys! Nice to start the new year with posts that makes your brain cells awake and heating up :cheers:

What is the importance, if any, for the timeline of the women who fled to Westeros from the Rhoyne after a religious persecution?

Weren't the Rhoynans the ones who taught the Andals the use of iron?

AGOT Bran VI, Nan's tale:

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken those lands from the children of the forest."

I took it as a reference to Nymeria, who was a woman warrior queen. I didn't read it before as that her army was a army of women.

Why did the women have to flee, by the way, but that is another question and probably bears no relevance to the timeline.

Nan tells about the time when a winter fell that was beyond all memory of men, a night that lasted a generation. In that darkness the Others came for the first time. She tells that they were "cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire (...)"

Were the Rhoynan women the source for the use of iron in Westeros and if so is the time of their arrival in Westeros important for the timeline? (Edit: Or was it brought to Westeros by the Andals?)

The Others hated iron, according to Nan, does that mean iron was brought to Westeros when (Ed; before) the Others came for the first time?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Andals are said to have brought steel. The dates for the Andal Invasion vary, 6000BL-2000BL. The Rhoynar Migration is usually dated around 1000BL. Nan is saying that 'First came the Long Winter. After that came the Andal Invasion. Long after that came the Rhoynar Migration." (BL= Before Landing (Aegon the Conqueror's))

The Rhoynar fled the Valyrians. (ADwD p232+)

It is technologically easier to make and use wrought iron than steel, so although the First Men who migrated to Westeros are said to have been armed with bronze, several thousand years later they may have had iron. The old swords in the Winterfell crypts would support this, especially since they are specifically said to be iron and not steel. And we must also consider meteoric iron, which the sword Dawn is said to be made of. Meteoric iron was highly prized in history by cultures that hadn't fully mastered ironworking. (A lump of meteoric iron is a prize awarded during the funeral games of Patroclus in the Illiad.)

[Eyron]

First about the iron, the Ironmen of the Iron Islands are First men, with the later Andals blending into their society and taking up the Ironmen's own religion.

I would say the Ironmen learned the use of iron without a doubt. And they learned it before the Andals came. Hence the iron swords in the crypts, possible because the Ironmen probably traded iron with the rest of the First men.

The Andals came with the knowledge to make that iron into steel, something the First men did not know, supposedly.

ETA: Ibbison already said as much I see.

The Roynish women had lost their men to the wars with the Valyrians I have been told and that is why they fled, I don't know where it says so though.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The history of weapon-making and the metallurgy is complex, and I am by no means an expert. In real history, there seems to be a gradual improvement in several different areas that led from iron to steel. In the early iron age, before steel was known, many cultures still considered bronze to be superior to iron for weapons, especially swords. Iron was usually cheaper, though, since bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, and tin was hard to find. Many Bronze Age cultures lived and died by their tin trade routes.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

deleted for dp. sorry.