Heresy 3

[mrazny]

The PWWP prophesy is such a puzzle to me. Like you, I assume that it is this prophesy that drives Rhaegar's actions, and it may be this prophesy that led Aegon V to try to hatch his dragons at Summerhall. Also, Maester Aemon comes to believe that Daenerys is the prince who was promised, but the thing that jumped out at me was how desperate he was to get to her - to guide her, instruct her, protect her. The overall impression that I get from these prophesy-driven Targaryens is a sense that they are working against time, that some impending doom is on the horizon, and if the promised prince doesn't make an appearance soon, the world will end.

The Targaryens have been trying to bring their dragons back for a long time now, with oftentimes tragic results. Why? They have been ruling from the Iron Throne without their dragons for 150 years, and yet there is something driving them time and time again to try to hatch those eggs. I think it is more than just a lust for power. I think it's all about this family prophesy - the prince who was promised, the dragon with three heads - there's some mission in there compelling the Targaryens.

Also, and this may or may not be related, but I don't think it was coincidental that Aegon decided to invade Westeros on the very day that Harrenhal was completed. I have a niggling suspicion that it may have been something about Harren and his grotesque castle that triggered the Conquest. Was Aegon here fulfilling the Targaryen family quest to be the Prince Who Was Promised, in fighting the "forces of darkness" by casting down Harren the Black? Did King Harren grow too powerful - was some balance tipped?

We assume that the Targaryens got lucky and fled the Doom thanks to a helpful warning from a family prophet. But I'm sort of coming around to the idea that they - the Targaryens - may have been involved in bringing down Valyria.

To flavor Aemon's take, I just re-read that chapter with Sam on the water. Aemon speaks of the prophecy and how it "took" his brothers. Seems that they were all obsessive over it, and Aemon associates their demise with that. Him wanting to protect Dany could very well be just from herself, worrying that her obsessions would be her end (which I also believe is her biggest danger). He didn't come across as dismissive of the prophecy so much as mistrustful of what it means. Maester Marwyn colors a prophecy perspective quite rudely with his prophecy will "bite off your prick" comment.

[mrazny]

But why isn't it recorded in the histories they wrote themselves? I mean, they 'won'; yet it's not recorded in their books, and no septon or anyone else for that matter brings it up or even mentions it. I find this very hard to believe.

It's like with Old Nan's stories, in a way... We assume the tales she tells have a root in events and facts, and at the same time we know they are not totally reliable sources of facts. It's all been distorted by time and too many tellings.

With the Andals, we assume at least some of the 'historical facts' we get are accurate, but certainly not all. We have the history they give us - things different characters mention at different times, etc. If they won a (holy) war against the barbaric peoples who were there when they invaded, why didn't they record it? There isn't a song, a story told, a reference, not even a single mention of anything remotely similar to this.

:eek:

I know i already commented a bit on a prior comment of yours, but just to give a full picture...

I'm not advocating that this is the way it happened yet, I just don't believe we can shut the door on it quite.

I do believe strongly that if the sequence was in fact Andal invasion, Massacre of the children (and I'm certain that massacre was propogated by the Seven, not just general warfare. It was too thorough and fanatical.), then Long Night unleashed in response...take this as the sequence, they *would* modify the telling of history so that they wouldn't admit the consequences of the actions of the Seven. And if it was truly FM and Old Gods traditions that had to work hand in hand to repel that threat, now the seven were only saved by heathens. Yeah, they would modify that.

All of this does rely on this being the actual sequence of events. The two biggest supporting aspects to this sequence are the fact that the Last Hero had to seek out the children (Which means the children disappeared, reappeared, then got massacred), and the Lack of strong First Men related events that would've driven the Children to flee. Nothing about the Pact sounded like, THIS great battle, then the wise said no more, PACT. The current day, Septon-ified, Maester-ified, Post Andal society's sequence describes it as squabble (And most here support it was more a land based conflict), peace for a long time, random death and darkness, peace, Andal invasion and specific story of death and darkness.

Unless there is simple pure malevolent Evil at work that was just biding its time to strike out randomly at the FM and the Children, then is just biding its time to strike again (though we've all made mention of the WW's aren't attacking as vehemently and haven't been as much of a presence through 5 novels as we would've thought), something is missing. What was the great action by the FM that required the unleashing of the long night?

The greatest amount of death malice and attrocity inflicted on Westeros that is specifically maintained is the Andal invasion and slaughtering of the Children. So as of yet I can't close the door on some sort of backlash for what the Andals did. And we'd have to wonder why it's taken this long if the "official" sequence is correct.

And Perhaps the prolific reverence for AA in Rh'lor faith is the reflection of the religion loving its role in the defeat of the others, as they bragged when traveling back east while at home had to temper attitudes more to maintain the Faith's innocence in the matter.

[Lummel]

...Was it really a victory that they would 'brag' about? The Andals may have fled their lands from a threat by the Dragonlords, very understandable. They must have been hard men, carving the seven pointed star in their chest, and clearing the COTF out of the south. They could not conquer the north though, right? Would they consider winning half of a kingdom a victory? Or would the consider not defeating the north a loss? I suppose they could say they lost because the north had the NW, COTF, wargs, etc. It is obvios they won the south. So could that be a reason the histories are like we have read?...

Yes I see this a big problem. We are told that the North stopped Andal invasions at Moat Callin. We know from ADWD that White Haven was captured by non-northerners but this doesn't seem to have been part of an invasion of the north so why are there no children in the North only before the wall while during the pact they co-existed? The big wolf wood looks like an ideal habitat for them.

Was the battle of the dawn the battle (the battle that Bran heard being sung about) fought by the Northerners and Joruman against the Night's King? Was that the moment when the Watch deserted its original purpose and the friendly interrelationship with the children ended?

[Elaena Targaryen]

I looked up "The Night That Ended" song and it was sang during the harvest feast. That makes sense in that context that it referred to the Long Night. (the battle for dawn was mentioned to be in the song) I do like the idea that it was related to the Nights King. His connection to everything has been disscused alot in these threads and I for one buy into it.

[Black Crow]

Was the battle of the dawn the battle (the battle that Bran heard being sung about) fought by the Northerners and Joruman against the Night's King? Was that the moment when the Watch deserted its original purpose and the friendly interrelationship with the children ended?

Good one.

I'm still inclined to think that the Children unleashed the Long Winter and then built the Wall t contain it after the Last Hero sought them out and cried Pax. What bothers me is the later bit. We know that the Andals slaughtered and burned the Children out of the six kingdoms below the Neck, but then, according to both Maester Luwin and Osha they fled north of the Wall rather than stay in the supposedly still free and friendly Kingdom of the North, but your suggestion that the Battle for the Dawn is the story of the Nights King makes a lot of sense and also hints at a far greater betrayal.

The Kingdom of the North survived the Andal invasion, but was that entirely down to the gallant defence of the Neck or was their expulsion of the Old Races the price of peace?

[Gala]

Hello everyone!

I do not know how patient the person should be to read all 17 pages of post, not mentioning the previous 2, so, please, do not judge me strictly for impatience or if somebody already said the idea I am going to say. It's very simple, comparing to those you've all suggest, which is wonderful, because it's like a solving the riddle.

My thought is: may be the Others or WW are one of the old races, which Osha mentioned, and they come out only at nights on the far North and the only time when they can fight is the Long Winter (as obviously cold is their thing) and Long Night is something similar to our polar night, which is also in winter and can last for 6 month, for example, on the Poles. WW have their language, their method of "dance" and disguise, may be it's just another culture.

I don't like the Other=Children theory, but I am sure that there is not everything clear here. May be they are some kind of relatives or old enemies, the representative of the old races, who chose different way of living and dealing with people that arrived to their lands: the Children chose to "work" with them, while the Others don't.

I know it's just a stupid idea, but I've always thought from the very beginning that WW are some kind of different species, whom are the threat to all of living things: people, Children, giants… And only Children know their real threat.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Welcome Gala

I'll let the true visionarys of all 3 threads discuss your post with you. I only wanted to recomend that you read the other (no pun intended) threads. I have been following since they started and these posters have had many revelations that you might enjoy. I love that they have me thinking in a different way. So enjoy!

[mrazny]

The fact that the andals could not defeat the north will probably have some role, or perhaps the north as we know it only says that they were never defeated as opposed to carved out a seventh kingdom led by a first man (stark) after some other event post conquest. I'm not sure what shape its all taking yet in my head.

Re: others, other others, and that whole lot. In 300AL, I don't believe there's an issue with people using the term others in different ways. The saying "others take them" is just a saying now. They don't actually hope white walkers come down and swoop them away, and possibly don't give much thought as to the origin or what they're saying. Its a common phrase they associate with the type of response they're going for. Just like using the curse "Jesus christ" doesn't mean that person is truly invoking religion.

Who the first men pre-andals would've called others, and who the andals would've called others are probably two different things, but have been carried down orally for a long time.

This is real life bleeding in, but others sounds like there's common ground. Other humans, other Americans, other westerners... like other men that made some horrible sacrifice to become white walkers...

[Eyron]

I'm also glad to see more joining in this thread :)

About the Others being a different species, from what we know of the old species it seems they are all made of flesh and blood, unlike the Others. I think the Others could be human from origin, or another species, but in the form they now have I think they are magically shaped to the core. They become water when they die, they don't have real bones and so on. Their minds seem to function much like human minds, so that is why I think they could be human somehow, but their bodies are not.

They may very well be a faction of the Children that chose not to collaborate with the humans, the First Men. One could say that they are rebels fighting to reclaim their lands in that case. But for some reason they could not, or would not, do this during the many years since they last came (whenever that was...) so that needs to be addressed somehow. That is a tricky part I think. Either they were "pushed back" by something (the long summer may be) or they were waiting for an opportune moment, or they were very very slowly regrouping, or something is drawing them out at the present.

In any case, the Andals came to Westeros at about the same time that Valyria was rising in power, and I think there was a war between the Andals and the Others, I will elaborate further below.

An odd thought that occurs to me here is that the Battle for the Dawn song although supposedly referring to a battle against the Others doesn't actually tell us anything about the battle.

Remember what Sam found:“The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.”

We know for once that this is reliable because it mirrors both what we saw in the prologue to AGoT and Sam's own experience, but the Battle for the Dawn song doesn't seem to reflect this at all. OK so far as the text goes we don't actually hear anything of what's in it, but what we are told is interesting: "When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking." Its obviously a well-known song, but it sounds as if its an ordinary battle with no mention of fire, cold blades, and the obsidian turning White Walkers into blue puddles.

This suggests two things; either the Watch rode bravely out and never came back from a Night that ended much later, or that the Others in question were not White Walkers.

We have touched on the matter of the dragonsteel and steel before, but how is it known to anyone in Westeros that the Others weapons shatter steel? As you say we know this is the truth, we have seen it, so whoever wrote that must have had actual accounts from sources that tell this accurately, methinks.

Most ordinary blades? The First Men had only bronze (or maybe iron, but nevermind me ;)). What types of blades had been "tested" against the Others when this piece of information was written?

When Old Nan tells her story to Bran she says "the White Walkers came for the first time" (paraphrasing). Aha, that was the first time they appeared. So I think, whatever the Last Hero did, the White Walkers were not killed off or defeated, they kept coming back. Maybe they did not come back as enemies after that, but they did appear again once in a while.

I think the hero in Old Nan's story was a different man than the one in the text Sam found, but the person writing down the information Sam found could have thought it was the same incident, the ingredients are the same so to speak, a hero, the Others, a long night or winter.

The Battle for Dawn was very likely the end of the Others (until now), and at that point steel was used, and someone had brought dragonsteel. Maybe it was Valyrian steel, which would be available at the time of Andal invasion if we believe that the Valyrian freehold had risen already. Is it not possible that a Valyrian person could have come to Andalos and preached the conquering of the dark lands in the west, where the nights were long, winters longer and people were heathen, men mingling with beasts, ghouls and monsters, seen in a prophetic dream perhaps. Or from own experience from the back of a dragon, it is not unknown for dragons to fly far and wide.

Or perhaps from the back of a falcon ;) to continue my little pet idea, that I don't take very seriously if anyone is worried...

The story of Artys Arryn was that he flew a falcon to slay the Griffin King. Falcons may have been giant in those days but they were not monsters, not like griffins, part lion part eagle. Griffins can fly, so they may pose a threat to dragons.

A theme in the later part of the books at least has been the moon, the moon was crescent, and so on. Especially in Bran's cave chapters, where he connected with the Children...

On the Arryns arms we see a falcon flying into the moon, to Westeros maybe? The lands of night, winter and the moon?

I have not given up the idea that the magic sword was Dawn, but I like to explore different angles and interpretations...

[Black Crow]

...Or from own experience from the back of a dragon, it is not unknown for dragons to fly far and wide.

Care to elaborate?

[Eyron]

Care to elaborate?

Am I crackpotting too much again? :leaving:

I was thinking that since the Valyrians had dragons, they could do recon pretty much anywhere they wanted, as you said before they probably expanded their empire in many different directions at the same time. One of them could have flewn to Westeros and checked out the Seven Kingdoms to see if it was worth conquering. And what they saw was probably not encouraging. They could not go to a place where there were people that could skinchange. That would nullify their advantage of having dragons.

I think mr. Martin have mentioned that there may have been dragons in Westeros at some point long ago. Maybe there were no dragons living there per se, but "visiting"? Or maybe there were dragons, of a different kind or the same who knows? It matters little in this scenario anyway.

[ARYa_Nym]

Am I crackpotting too much again? :leaving:

I was thinking that since the Valyrians had dragons, they could do recon pretty much anywhere they wanted, as you said before they probably expanded their empire in many different directions at the same time. One of them could have flewn to Westeros and checked out the Seven Kingdoms to see if it was worth conquering. And what they saw was probably not encouraging. They could not go to a place where there were people that could skinchange. That would nullify their advantage of having dragons.

I think mr. Martin have mentioned that there may have been dragons in Westeros at some point long ago. Maybe there were no dragons living there per se, but "visiting"? Or maybe there were dragons, of a different kind or the same who knows? It matters little in this scenario anyway.

December 11, 1999

Dragons in Westeros

In 'The Hedge Knight' ancient dragons are mentioned, thousands of years olds. Were there Dragons in Westeros before the Targaryens brought them, or did the Targaryens bring the skeletons of the old Dragons with them?

There were dragons all over, once.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Dragons_in_Westeros/

Arya is still able to warg Nymeria from Essos though but it may be different with a dragon.

[Eyron]

http://www.westeros....ns_in_Westeros/

Arya is still able to warg Nymeria from Essos though but it may be different with a dragon.

Ah, thank you for that quote! Well there were dragons in Westeros once then, but at the time of the battle for dawn I suspect there was none, since there is no mention what so ever in any First Men or Andal related myths or historical records. The Ironborn has the legend of Nagga the seadragon that we know of, but I can't recall any other mention of dragons.

I think it could be different warging a dragon, or at least that there has to be a connection to start with for anyone to be able to do that across the sea. If no one in Westeros were aware of the dragons in Essos there would be no reason to try and skinchange them I guess.

[Black Crow]

I would imagine, given the obvious parallels between the Valyrian and Roman empires that the Valyrians never bothered to try conquering Westeros for the same reason that the Romans only did so reluctantly; it was an unappealing island on the far fringes of the empire which just wasn't worth the effort.

The Andals on the other hand, like the Belgae, didn't have a choice.

[Eyron]

They would not know it was unappealing if they never went there though. I would still assume they sent a scout or investigator there at some point.

[Lummel]

...My thought is: may be the Others or WW are one of the old races, which Osha mentioned, and they come out only at nights on the far North and the only time when they can fight is the Long Winter (as obviously cold is their thing) and Long Night is something similar to our polar night, which is also in winter and can last for 6 month, for example, on the Poles. WW have their language, their method of "dance" and disguise, may be it's just another culture.

I don't like the Other=Children theory, but I am sure that there is not everything clear here. May be they are some kind of relatives or old enemies, the representative of the old races, who chose different way of living and dealing with people that arrived to their lands: the Children chose to "work" with them, while the Others don't...

Hello heretic! :devil:

No I don't think the white walkers are children of the forest either. Bran's description of the children in ADWD seems quite different (small, dappled skin etc) from how the white walkers are described. The White Walkers sound more human-like. We don't know if the white walkers have their own language - they could have been speaking the old tongue in the AGOT prologue...

The Battle for Dawn was very likely the end of the Others (until now), and at that point steel was used, and someone had brought dragonsteel. Maybe it was Valyrian steel, which would be available at the time of Andal invasion if we believe that the Valyrian freehold had risen already. Is it not possible that a Valyrian person could have come to Andalos and preached the conquering of the dark lands in the west, where the nights were long, winters longer and people were heathen, men mingling with beasts, ghouls and monsters, seen in a prophetic dream perhaps. Or from own experience from the back of a dragon, it is not unknown for dragons to fly far and wide.

yeah, my problem with steel is that we know that young Royce went into battle against the white walkers with castle forged steel and we know what happened - the blade shattered. If castle forged steel is the best, technically, that can be produced in modern Westeros I can't see the ancient steel of the early Andals being any better.

There are the valyrian steel heirloom weapons of the noble houses of westeros - but do we think that they were all in Westeros in time for the fight against the white walkers? Maybe demon hunting Andal warriors would have sought out the best weapons to fight for their faith against these monsters of Westeros?

I was thinking that since the Valyrians had dragons, they could do recon pretty much anywhere they wanted, as you said before they probably expanded their empire in many different directions at the same time. One of them could have flewn to Westeros and checked out the Seven Kingdoms to see if it was worth conquering. And what they saw was probably not encouraging. They could not go to a place where there were people that could skinchange. That would nullify their advantage of having dragons.

I like Hot Weasel Soup's idea of the influence of the targaryen prophecy deciding when they would invade Westeros, but that explains (maybe) why Aegon conquered when he did not why the Valyrians didn't.

Maybe they were like the Romans who conquered the more sophisticated Mediterranean lands first, the places that had taxes, towns and trade networks they could profit off , on the other hand the seven kingdoms of Westeros don't seem to have been a total barbarian waste at the time. Maybe the wars against Ghis took up too much of their dragon power and they didn't have the spare capacity to expand into Westeros?

ETA: spelling

[kissdbyfire]

I would imagine, given the obvious parallels between the Valyrian and Roman empires that the Valyrians never bothered to try conquering Westeros for the same reason that the Romans only did so reluctantly; it was an unappealing island on the far fringes of the empire which just wasn't worth the effort.

The Andals on the other hand, like the Belgae, didn't have a choice.

I don't think Westeros would have looked like an 'unappealing island'... Didn't GRRM say Westeros is roughly the size of South America? If they did 'scout' at some point as Eira has suggested (and I think it's extremely likely that they did), they would have had at least an idea of its size, I think.

[Eyron]

yeah, my problem with steel is that we know that young Royce went into battle against the white walkers with castle forged steel and we know what happened - the blade shattered. If castle forged steel is the best, technically, that can be produced in modern Westeros I can't see the ancient steel of the early Andals being any better.

There are the valyrian steel heirloom weapons of the noble houses of westeros - but do we think that they were all in Westeros in time for the fight against the white walkers? Maybe demon hunting Andal warriors would have sought out the best weapons to fight for their faith against these monsters of Westeros?

Sorry I was unclear, I didn't mean that the Andals won thanks to their "regular" steel, but that they at some point must have fought the Others since there are records saying that the Others weapons shattered steel. As I said in that post, in the paragraph directly below the quote from Black Crow, how could anyone in Westeros know that their weapons shattered steel?

If the Others were defeated and gone when the Andals came, no one would know that steel did not work, and we have a record saying that some knew this. The Andals must have fought the Others... :wideeyed:

Perhaps it was the events of the Night's King as some have said above in the thread, when the Others returned? Valyrian steel would have been available to a few. How did the houses in Westeros ever get those swords in the first place? Did they trade overseas?

I like Hot Weasel Soup's idea of the influence of the targaryen prophecy deciding when they would invade Westeros, but that explains (maybe) why Aegon conquered when he did not why the Valyrians didn't.

I believe the prophecy could have had something to do with the invasion too, and I think the Targaryens may have believed they were on a dead-line for some reason.

I think it could have something to do with the myth Doreah heard from a man from Qarth, "One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return". Not that the myth is correct in a literal sense, but that this may have been a version of the Targaryen prophecy of the promised prince, symbolically. Many believe that it was fulfilled with Dany+Drogo=Rhaego->dragons. But prophecies in this story are often misinterpreted or seem to be fulfilled in more than one way. It may have been this that caused Raegar to want Lyanna (the moon's daughter?), or Elia (the sun's daughter?). I am not sure, just throwing my thoughts out here :) It was ice and fire in Rhaegars interpretation it seems, but that fits rather well with moon and sun I think.

Maybe they were like the Romans who conquered the more sophisticated Mediterranean lands first, the places that had taxes, towns and trade networks they could profit off , on the other hand the seven kingdoms of Westeros don't seem to have been a total barbarian waste at the time. Maybe the wars against Ghis took up too much of their dragon power and they didn't have the spare capacity to expand into Westeros?

Certainly possible, their powers would not be without limit, but it seems they conquered almost all of Essos and grew stronger from it (well, until that unfortunate doom happened ;))

I don't think Westeros would have looked like an 'unappealing island'... Didn't GRRM say Westeros is roughly the size of South America? If they did 'scout' at some point as Eira has suggested (and I think it's extremely likely that they did), they would have had at least an idea of its size, I think.

I think Westeros could be very appealing, the gold mines in the west for instance, right up the Valyrians alley I think. But if they sent a scout they could have noticed the less appealing things too, like skinchangers, the Childrens powers and that the winters were long and hard at times. Not suitable for dragons perhaps, but they could have noticed that Dragonstone was habitable for them, for future endeavours?

[Black Crow]

Britain did appeal to the Romans; people had been trading tin from Cornwall since Phoenician times and probably before that since somebody must have told the Phoenicians it was there, while there was also thought to be silver in Wales and rumours of gold in Ireland, so again you can draw parallels with Westeros, but it still comes down to economics as in does the return justify the effort and expence of conquering the place. No doubt like the Romans the Valyrians would have gotten around to it eventually, but events, dear boy, events...

In the meantime no dragons would have been necessary to find out, just as the Romans did they will have built up a good enough picture from traders, clients and even spies without resorting to something as obvious as a Zeppelin.

[Black Crow]

my problem with steel is that we know that young Royce went into battle against the white walkers with castle forged steel and we know what happened - the blade shattered. If castle forged steel is the best, technically, that can be produced in modern Westeros I can't see the ancient steel of the early Andals being any better.

There are the valyrian steel heirloom weapons of the noble houses of westeros - but do we think that they were all in Westeros in time for the fight against the white walkers? Maybe demon hunting Andal warriors would have sought out the best weapons to fight for their faith against these monsters of Westeros?

Quite, I think the point here is that few of the noble houses can claim meaningful descent from Valyrian families, so somebody somewhere along the line bought the family sword as a status symbol. If we suppose that Azor Ahai fought against the Others after the Long Night, wielding this flashy state of the art blade from Valyria, I can easily see the local families wanting one just like it.