Bran

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

if i wanted to base this off of somthing i would of made new thread not highjack one. i posted my shit to have a fun debate with someone and got you. not fun. i thought it was a cool idea and would be fun to talk someone about but u just shrug it off like nope thats stupid not gona happen.

kind of dickish

[Stark@heart]

Sorry :frown5:

I wasn't trying to be a douche but that topic (Children=Others) just erks me and seems to find it's way into most threads. It's like Kudzu in the south, everywhere.

Crackpotting is my fav sport. I promise to play nice if you throw me the ball again.

[bemused]

Gee , somehow, I must have missed the great spaghetti monster theory...sounds intriguing..;)

I believe George has said that he will be offering no explanation of how magic works, because he wants it to remain magic , or words to that effect. So we may never know if the various examples of blood magic we've seen in various parts of the world work the same way. Did it come from Essos with the first men ?..seems possible..the one sacrifice we've seen ( through Bran ) was performed by men ,not CoTF ... and if that magic was an import to Westeros , did it add any extra dimension to the greenseers abilities ? We may never know.

When Bran is in Summer and Summer makes a kill , Bran can taste the blood , but though he feels satisfied through his affinity for his wolf , he doesn't actually gain any nourishment from it . When he witnesses the sacrifice , he's not actually in the tree , but dreaming , and he can taste the blood. It seems that taste is just happening in his mind ,then, because he knows what blood tastes like . When he first is fed the weirwood paste, he thinks the red part looks like blood , but it's not confirmed to taste like blood.

Does a tree experience taste the way people do ? The weirwoods draw on all the other nutrients that other trees do . One of the men in Stannis' army jokes about worshiping trees, asking what sort of god allows dogs to piss on it . If that should happen, will Bran taste that as well ?

I think the jury is out on just how efficacious a blood sacrifice at the foot of a weirwood would be. At any rate, the tasting of blood has ,so far, been related to seeing into the future , not being able to speak through other beings or trees. The greenseers of CoTF seem always to have had some ability in this respect , it's part of what sets them apart , but we don't know if CoTF had blood sacrifice before the coming of the first men.

I feel somehow that Bran's apparent prodigious ability to communicate through outside sources is a power in his blood , the blood of the Starks.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Based on the Bran chapters in ADWD it seems pretty clear that the Children of the Forest =/= The Others. If The Children are the Others why would the wights, who fight for the Others, attack to prevent Bran's entry into the caves?

[Theresa R]

Are we really sure that what Bran saw through the weirwood was an actual blood sacrifice? I thought that the killing of the captive by the woman with the white hair was just the first memory of that particular tree. Since Bran mentions that the tree is getting smaller (hence,younger) as the vision continues, I figured that the captives' soul/spirit was the first to enter this young weirwood, in turn, awakening it. Did I miss some mention of a sacrifice being necessary for the weirwoods to have any power? Any help in clearing this up for me would be greatly appreciated.

[Derfel]

I wonder if we will ever see again a Bran POV chapter. Maybe he will just interact with other people through weirwoods and ravens and we will know he is acting but will never got to see this from his own eyes.

[D_Richard]

Based on the Bran chapters in ADWD it seems pretty clear that the Children of the Forest =/= The Others. If The Children are the Others why would the wights, who fight for the Others, attack to prevent Bran's entry into the caves?

The dark and ominous disposition we are left with at the end of the Bran chaptersin ADwD has lead to some readers on these boards to make the same assumption that Melisandre has made: The red eye and Wolf boy in her flames represent the darkness we associate with The Others, and that she associates with the enemies of R'Lhor. Not to mention, Lord Brynden speaks to Bran of embracing the "darkness".

I'm sure GRRM wants it to be confusing, or at least ambiguous, but I just can't bring myself to thinking Lord Brynden and the Children of the Forest are aligned with The Others and are taking Bran with them. Unless, perhaps, the end game is just a big ol' cleansing of Westeros.

[ShadowRaven]

Personally I don't understand why people want Bran/BR/CTOF to be in line with the Others, it's a good ctt, but why? GRRM doesn't seem to be that kind of an author.

I hope that Bran will be able to use the weirwood to speak; that way, the northmen will strengthen because they will realize their Gods are real, the southerners will probably change fate for some reason, and the red flame god will be lowered in status among Stannis's camp. I also hope that Bran will whisper something along the lines of 'Boltons bad blood' and suddenly all the north is against the Boltons, hehe.

[Im no Ser]

No, I don't think Bran want's Theon sacrificed, king's blood or not. Theon saved Bran long ago in AGoT and when Theon took Winterfell he spared most of the smallfolk and treated them gently, except for those who resisted. It was Ramsey who burned Winterfell and tortured the smallfolk, bringing the women back to the Dreadfort to hunt them. I think Bran knows who really sacked Winterfell.

Theon used Winterfell gently?

Putting aside the men he killed when he entered: He has Mikken stabbed in the hall for mouthing off, Septon Chaylde drowned for his god, theatens Farlen with his daughter's rape unless he helps track Bran & Rickon, kills the miller's wife and children, kills Farlen when he needs a fall guy for his murders of his own men, then gives Farlen's aforementioned daughter to "Reek" in exchange for more men. Oh, and he puts Beth Cassel in a noose.

He looks good in comparison to Ramsay Snow I'll grant...

[Im no Ser]

Based on the Bran chapters in ADWD it seems pretty clear that the Children of the Forest =/= The Others. If The Children are the Others why would the wights, who fight for the Others, attack to prevent Bran's entry into the caves?

The theory goes that they were in fact herding them into the caves, and creating the impression with Bran that he couldn't safely leave.

Personally I don't understand why people want Bran/BR/CTOF to be in line with the Others, it's a good ctt, but why? GRRM doesn't seem to be that kind of an author.

It's not a question of "want", it's my read of what is actually happening in the text. And I think it is completely in line with the rest of the series. The others (the powers of ice and darkness) are a problem, but from what we've seen of the powers of fire and light (specifically all the eager child burning) they aren't much better. Humanity caught in the middle of a conflict where there is no "good" side, only flawed people making flawed decisions (often with unintended consequences) is exactly what this series has been about for 4500 pages. I don't see it shifting gears now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

INSer,

Okay, why would Bran attempt to leave the only shelter he's got for hundreds of miles in the middle of a fierce north of the wall winter while abandoning the goal he's left everything he knows behind to achieve? The addition of the attack at the end of the road seems pretty unnecessary. Further, wouldn't Jojen have had some inkling of the problem given his "greendreams"?

[DurararaFTW]

INSer,

Okay, why would Bran attempt to leave the only shelter he's got for hundreds of miles in the middle of a fierce north of the wall winter while abandoning the goal he's left everything he knows behind to achieve? The addition of the attack at the end of the road seems pretty unnecessary. Further, wouldn't Jojen have had some inkling of the problem given his "greendreams"?

To achieve what? Bran asked him if he could make him walk again, greenseer told him no, Bran thought that they came all the way fo nothing.

Then greenseer starting his flying thing again, which is not even remotely flying at all, and we dunno if Bran thought that was worth it. As I'm no Ser says, it's not like they can leave if they felt it wasn't worth it. There's nothing but wights between them and the wall.

If only there was a fast moving, flying, firebreathing creature that Bran could warg into to come get them. That would work.

And do you mean "wouldn't Jojen have had some inkling of the problem given his "greendreams"?" Jojen has seen that he going DIE soon, very very soon now. He knows something is going to kill him. Since he'll be dead after that, he obviously doesn't what it'll mean for Meera, Bran and Hodor after that, My bet is, they'll be sorry they came this way.

[bemused]

Just as Mel has a problem with seeing what she wants to see..I'm not sure that Jojen is interpreting his dreams of his own death completely accurately. In our reality ,e.g. many Tarot card readers won't read for themselves because it's too easy to see , 1. one's hopes and 2. one's fears . Objectivity is almost impossible to maintain when the self is involved.

Since he never tells what he's seen for himself , it's hard to tell .

[DurararaFTW]

Well though I have a feeling Meera is gonna die instead of Jojen as to subvert our expectations, I'm sure something bad will happen.

[Ladywhiskers]

No, I don't think Bran want's Theon sacrificed, king's blood or not. Theon saved Bran long ago in AGoT and when Theon took Winterfell he spared most of the smallfolk and treated them gently, except for those who resisted. It was Ramsey who burned Winterfell and tortured the smallfolk, bringing the women back to the Dreadfort to hunt them. I think Bran knows who really sacked Winterfell. In Theon's compromised mental state, perhaps Bran will use him to communicate certain truths. I doubt Bran is into much bloodshed or revenge. Theon never hurt Bran. I think Bran will use the opportunity to unite all forces present against the threat of the Others.

These are good points. Theon saved Bran when Osha's friends would have killed him. Rob would have been forced to kill the wolves and then they would have killed Bran anyway. I'm sure Bran will bear this in mind, when deciding Theon's fate, and he'll be more merciful with Theon than he'd be with say, Ramsay or Roose Bolton, or the Freys.

BUT. Theon did take Winterfell, and by doing so he ruined the place. He usurped Bran's ancestral home, and killed Mikken and others. Of course they resisted him. It was stupid of him to take Winterfell instead of Moat Caillin. By doing so, he betrayed Robb and all the Starks, and so he does ultimately deserve to die. But I think he deserves to be given the chance to redeem himself a bit more first. Bran wants something besides Theon's death, or he would just allow Stannis to give him to the flames.

I think Theon will be happy to sacrifice himself or be executed, as long as he doesn't have to go back to the Dreadfort.

[DurararaFTW]

BUT. Theon did take Winterfell, and by doing so he ruined the place. He usurped Bran's ancestral home, and killed Mikken and others. Of course they resisted him. It was stupid of him to take Winterfell instead of Moat Caillin.

Victarion was already taking Moat Cailin and it was hardly stupid. If Asha had just brought her men there, or even brought a 100 men there to help Theon, they'd still be there, wintering out Ser Rodric.

[Ladywhiskers]

Victarion was already taking Moat Cailin and it was hardly stupid. If Asha had just brought her men there, or even brought a 100 men there to help Theon, they'd still be there, wintering out Ser Rodric.

But Asha didn't bring her men. Theon was working for the wrong family. He shouldn't have even tried to fight for the Ironborn. He should have stayed loyal to Robb Stark, and died fighting for him if necessary. When his father shot him down, he should have nodded and agreed to do whatever, and then he should have gone straight back to Robb with the news that they did not have the Ironborn on their side at all. He should have accepted that he would never have his father's approval or his sister's respect, no matter what he did.

[DurararaFTW]

Fair enough.

[chrisdaw]

We already knew that BR used the ravens to speak words so it is not a stretch at all to see Bran use them. The problem is that no-one validates the ravens as having any intelligence. How is Bran going to get anyone to take the ravens seriously? Perhaps if he had a 1,000 crows all saying the same thing at the same time in front of Northmen they would realize that the crows could be useful.

Seems unlikely to me that Asha's suggestion to Stannis of how to handle Theon has come about without Bran's influence. Most likely Bran already has his ways. Alysane Mormont keeps to the old gods still doesn't she? Perhaps there's the link.

[Sforzando]

I wonder if we will ever see again a Bran POV chapter. Maybe he will just interact with other people through weirwoods and ravens and we will know he is acting but will never got to see this from his own eyes.

Given that we didn't see anything of him for the entire second half of ADWD I think you may be right. Having a Bran POV now would inevitably dump a ton of information about what he and Bloodraven are planning. It would be much better storytelling if the results of their machinations were revealed to us slowly, through the eyes of the other characters.

But then, we have to find out Meera and Jojen's fate somehow, right?

This brings me on to an intriguing question. Who does Bran want to win? He can now have a terrific influence on one side or the other in the game of thrones - yet why would he want to support Theon or Roose given what they did to Winterfell? And Stannis, of course, worships the wrong god. I guess Bran would want to support the Night's Watch against the Others, but beyond that I'm not too sure, and I wonder if he cares at all about what's happening south of Moat Cailin that we'll see him interfering down there as well.

I'd love to see Bran go a bit power-mad and start decking it to Lannisters and especially Jaime. Power corrupts, unfortunately, and if he plays his ravens right he could have a lot of it from now on.