Bran

[Nev yn]

Jon thinks to himself how easy it is to set them ablaze, and once the meat is gone (only bones remaining) they quit moving, remembering that they are dead.

Can you quote this? I don't recall it offhand, and Jon wrapped the one that he killed in flaming drapes so that it would take flame. Didn't seem "easy to set ablaze" any more than a person would be.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

You make it sound like Catelyn would not be just as blood thirsty, as Robb would? And you make it sound like Catelyn would not want revenge, just as much as Robb would.

When Jaime first hears about Joffrey's death, Jaime considers his lack of emotion, considering he just heard about the death of his son.

My point being, Jaime then thinks about, when parents hear about the death of there children, they are said to pull their hair out, and go crazy(this is in my own words, but Jaime thinks something like that).

The reason why I brought up the stuff about Jaime, is because Catelyn's reaction when Robb dies , is exactly how Jaime said a parent should react, when hearing about, and or seeing, the death of their child.

Not to mention Robb was not the first for Catelyn. She had to deal with losing her husband, and her father, and she thought Bran and Rickon were dead, and she was seperated from her two daughters. She knew that Sansa was married off to Tyrion (I can't remember what she thought had become of Arya exactly, but Catelyn wasn't able to get to Arya, so Arya was lost to her in a sense).

Also Winterfell was lost to Catelyn along with everyone she knew there. That was her home for like the last 15 years, and those people were her friends.

So I think Catelyn's reaction to the slaughter of her last son, and his Bannermen, is completely understandable, especially when considering everything else that had happened to her.

So in short, I don't think Catelyn was "warged" at all by Robb, and Catelyn going bat-shit-crazy at that point was completely understandable, considering ALL the Circumstances.

I don't think he warged her and stayed in her, at all. I just noticed her reaction was the same as the other woman's and wondered for a bit after the prologue in ADwD. In Cat's place, I would have gone bat shit crazy as well. Add to that being dead for days before resurrection, which I guess made her soulless, unlike Beric. I don't think her mission to kill has anything to do with anyone other than herself, what's left, occupying her mind.

[Hélio Mothci Pereira]

Bran is embrancing the Darkness, ok. but is darkness something bad and R'Lhor the good god? i don't think so , Fire consumes and leaves only ashes.

I see necromancy in the red god and nature magic in the CoF.

Bran an Melisandre might end up being enemys.

[Hélio Mothci Pereira]

Westerirei - in the seventh Bran chapter in AGOT, Mr. Luwin tells Bran about the children of the forests and says that when the First Men started cutting down weirwoods, the children fought back. "Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door." According to Google books, it's on page 617.

Also, earlier someone mentioned whether it would be possible for Bran to warg into someone as strong-willed as Asha without resistance. I don't think so. In the Varamyr prologue he tried to warg into the fishwife and she put up a hell of a fight. Yeah, Varamyr was distracted by dying at the time, but still, he's a very experienced warg. I think that easy warging of the "Welcome to my body, if you need me I'll be wimpering in a dark corner of my soul" is possible only with someone very simple-minded like Hodor who can't muster up the will power to resist.

But Bran is so powerfull , he might be the most powerfull of the GS alive, and remenber that magic is stronger now, so maybe Bran's magic is so strong that it coud warg into a person if he wanted

[Annabelle Lexus]

If bran is powerful enough to fully warg someone (besides a simpleton like Hodor) I hope he chooses not to, that would be too much power and I believe it could corrupt him alot.

If Bran has much of his father in him I think he wouldn't warg into anyone besides Hodor.... but Lord Eddard is dead and he has been through alot..

I say warging into weirwoods to observe (sometimes communicate) and warging into ravens for the same reason, is what he should stick to.

[ipsuel]

I don't think he warged her and stayed in her, at all. I just noticed her reaction was the same as the other woman's and wondered for a bit after the prologue in ADwD. In Cat's place, I would have gone bat shit crazy as well. Add to that being dead for days before resurrection, which I guess made her soulless, unlike Beric. I don't think her mission to kill has anything to do with anyone other than herself, what's left, occupying her mind.

Who knows if Robb did warg into her, or not? Not me. I mean, he may have done so accidentally. But, I'd never given this much thought until I read your post--and I do think it's plausble. That behavior was not the norm for Catelyn. Sure, it's also plausible that this is a woman who can't take it anymore, having lost literally everything -- but still, it's not the norm for her.

More importantly, I think its one of those things that GRRM intentionally writes a certain way (to make us think 'hmmm') but that we'll never know the answer to. It's interesting to think about tho--cuz either way is 100% plausible imo.

In fact, I lean more toward the accidental-warg thing than the grieving mom thing--if only because we have never seen her have a reaction like this in the past. (If anything, Cat would've clawed at the Frey's faces, not her own. Instead, her actions are *very much* like the woman in the prologue in ADwD.

I think he chose his writing here very carefully. (And that's what I love about these books)!!

[Dream Hawk]

If anything, Cat would've clawed at the Frey's faces, not her own. Instead, her actions are *very much* like the woman in the prologue in ADwD.

Yeah wasn't she hellbent on getting to Walder Frey and killing him after they attacked Robb and then she went batshit crazy!

It's been a while since I read the book so I could be forgetting something

[Lady Octarina]

I think we sometimes read too much into certain scenes, always expecting any hidden clue Martin may have left us. I think Catelyn's clawing at her own face reaction simply means she was desperate, losing Robb, as far as she knew, meant she had lost everything she had in her life, as others have mentioned - her children, her husband, her father... a useless brother and a mad sister are hardly anything to rely on. Besides, don't we read her thoughts after the clawing scene? I don't think that would happen if she had been warged. And her behavior as UnCat, her seeking revenge at all costs, might be simply her clinging to her last thoughts in life after being dead for three days. For all we know, that was the last bit of her personality to go away as she died - the hidden bit - therefore, the only one to remain when Beric made the worst decision a living-dead man could make...

[ipsuel]

Yep... she was gonna try to kill Walder, then begged for mercy, begged to trade Robb's life for Jinglebells... etc. (Btw, Robb's last words were 'Grey Wind' much like Jon's ;-))...

Anyhooooo... the guy kills Robb (the 'Jaime Lanister sends his regards' moment) -- then she slices the guy's neck....

Then it goes straight to this: "Finally someone took the knife away from her. The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips."

So she did not (consciously anyway) claw at her own face... Could very well be a warg accident.

[ipsuel]

I think we sometimes read too much into certain scenes, always expecting any hidden clue Martin may have left us. I think Catelyn's clawing at her own face reaction simply means she was desperate, losing Robb, as far as she knew, meant she had lost everything she had in her life, as others have mentioned - her children, her husband, her father... a useless brother and a mad sister are hardly anything to rely on. Besides, don't we read her thoughts after the clawing scene? I don't think that would happen if she had been warged. And her behavior as UnCat, her seeking revenge at all costs, might be simply her clinging to her last thoughts in life after being dead for three days. For all we know, that was the last bit of her personality to go away as she died - the hidden bit - therefore, the only one to remain when Beric made the worst decision a living-dead man could make...

Hey, I don't know whether she was warged or not -- nor do I claim to.... BUT...

She has no conscious memory of doing that to herself. Almost like a black-out. Again, could go either way. And as I said before--I think he chose his words carefully to make us think, but that we'll never know :) That's part of the allure of these books after all.

[Timmay]

From the Mel chapter in Dance:

“Show me Stannis Lord, she prayed. Show me your King, your instrument”

Then we have 2 paragraphs of distraction from the question asked. The first one flames swirling, images shifting. The second Mel pondering the vision of the girl on the horse.

“A face took shape in the hearth...A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.”

She asks the flames “show me your King” and the first face she is shown is Bloodraven (King?), ”your instrument” followed by Bran (instrument?).

If BR=Rhllor’s King, does that make Bran a Prince? (tPtwP?) Or is King and instrument both in one of these people, BR or Bran? I would guess Bran if one person. King is a very interesting coice of word to use here.

Later in the chapter:

“beyond the wall, the enemy grows stronger. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boys with the wolf’s face...they were his servants surely...his champions, as Stannis was hers.”

Here I think, Mel is showing us her fallibility, she has misread the flames again. She asks Rhllor for his King and was given what she asked for. BR and/or Bran. And refuses to acknowledge it. I think these quotes are telling us Mel is wrong in interpreting the flames telling her that BR is the enemy’s servant, and that BR is acting on the side of the Lord of Light (whether that is intentional or not on his part).

This could be foreshadowing that Bran is tPtwP. Along with the vision of the “winged snake whose roar was a river of flame” and his being reborn from the crypts amidst smoke and salt. I think there is a case to be made that Bran is AA reborn/tPtwP. aDwD has given us another foreshadow that may fit this being true.

But are Rhllor’s King, Rhllor’s instrument, & AA reborn/tPtwP names for the same individual? Maybe not. Maybe AA reborn/tPtwP are Jon or Dany as many believe, BR is Rhllor’s King, and is training Rhllor’s instrument (Bran) for the coming battle for the dawn. This seems likely to me also, given the foreshadowing of Jon=AA/PtwP. Until Bran picks up a flaming sword anyway.

I submit the above quotes prove that BR and Bran are working on the same side as the Lord of Light, working against the Great Other. (Assuming Mel and the other Red Priests have at least that much right).

[Ghost714]

From the Mel chapter in Dance:

“Show me Stannis Lord, she prayed. Show me your King, your instrument”

Then we have 2 paragraphs of distraction from the question asked. The first one flames swirling, images shifting. The second Mel pondering the vision of the girl on the horse.

“A face took shape in the hearth...A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.”

She asks the flames “show me your King” and the first face she is shown is Bloodraven (King?), ”your instrument” followed by Bran (instrument?).

If BR=Rhllor’s King, does that make Bran a Prince? (tPtwP?) Or is King and instrument both in one of these people, BR or Bran? I would guess Bran if one person. King is a very interesting coice of word to use here.

Later in the chapter:

“beyond the wall, the enemy grows stronger. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boys with the wolf’s face...they were his servants surely...his champions, as Stannis was hers.”

Here I think, Mel is showing us her fallibility, she has misread the flames again. She asks Rhllor for his King and was given what she asked for. BR and/or Bran. And refuses to acknowledge it. I think these quotes are telling us Mel is wrong in interpreting the flames telling her that BR is the enemy’s servant, and that BR is acting on the side of the Lord of Light (whether that is intentional or not on his part).

This could be foreshadowing that Bran is tPtwP. Along with the vision of the “winged snake whose roar was a river of flame” and his being reborn from the crypts amidst smoke and salt. I think there is a case to be made that Bran is AA reborn/tPtwP. aDwD has given us another foreshadow that may fit this being true.

But are Rhllor’s King, Rhllor’s instrument, & AA reborn/tPtwP names for the same individual? Maybe not. Maybe AA reborn/tPtwP are Jon or Dany as many believe, BR is Rhllor’s King, and is training Rhllor’s instrument (Bran) for the coming battle for the dawn. This seems likely to me also, given the foreshadowing of Jon=AA/PtwP. Until Bran picks up a flaming sword anyway.

I submit the above quotes prove that BR and Bran are working on the same side as the Lord of Light, working against the Great Other. (Assuming Mel and the other Red Priests have at least that much right).

Great post!!!

That's awesome how you put that all together. I never though Bran or Bloodraven were on the side of the Others, and I like how you pointed out that the text can be interpreted as saying they are the instruments of R'hllor. I still think Jon is AA though, and your point still allows for him to be AA, so I like it. A lot.

[chrisdaw]

From the Mel chapter in Dance:

“Show me Stannis Lord, she prayed. Show me your King, your instrument”

Then we have 2 paragraphs of distraction from the question asked. The first one flames swirling, images shifting. The second Mel pondering the vision of the girl on the horse.

etc etc

It would add much prominence to Mel's explanation that the flames do not lie, just the interpreter makes mistakes. Also, if Jon were not the king/AA in her visions then what does that make Jon? The enemy? I can't recall, was it Jon surrounded by the skulls?

And the old gods and R'hllor not necessarily being enemies would somewhat explain MMD's tent.

She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

Assuming the two shadow figures represent the obvious, it would seem unlikely that a blood magic practitioner could call upon both in an attempt to defy death if they were bitter enemies.

[nann]

I don't think Bran is warging Asha or will warg any other human being. It would be pretty bad if any time one of the major characters makes an unexpected decision we instantly jumped to "it's because Bran has warged them".

Asha could want Stannis to sacrifice Theon to the tree for any one of (or a combination of) a few reasons:

1 - it's better than burning him alive.

2 - she genuinely believes it would be appropriate to sacrifice him to Ned's gods for his crimes against Ned's children (this doesn't mean she now worships the trees - religion in asoiaf seems on the whole to respect that other traditions have their own power).

3 - she still needs Theon to overturn Euron's kingsmoot and wants to call Stannis' bluff on killing him. By her giving voice to the idea of sacrificing Theon to the old gods would be appropriate she makes it hard for Stannis to ignore the idea but - crucially - politically impossible to burn him.

4 - she still intends to build a future for the Ironborn on the coasts of the North and this is a way of ensuring that the houses of the North know she respects their traditions.

I may also be in a minority when it comes to Bran in that I'm not sure he'll stay with the CotF and BR. That would seem to be the obvious and easy thing to do. The characters in asoiaf are human characters - human characters don't always do the obvious and easy things. It could be that Bran decides he'd rather fight than wait for death (he says something that would foreshadow this in ADWD). It could be that Bran sees the future death of Jojen and Meera and decides to see if he can change it.

Maybe he will never have the power to do much more than watch if he stays where he is? How awful that would be - to see the world being destroyed but being powerless to do anything about it.

5. She is mocking him like theon does and is goading him on.

she inferrs that he is a lesser man than Stark and challenges him to responsibility for the deaths he has ordered like Stark would do. She puts him in a position where he will not be respected by the men of the north if he does not kill theon himself.

6. She has a champion lined up.

[CrypticWeirwood]

she inferrs that he is a lesser man than Stark

What does that mean?

[Lady Octarina]

What does that mean?

I suppose nann was referring to this passage, where Asha apparently suggests that's the way for Stannis to try and be seen as Eddard's equal:

"Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree."

[CrypticWeirwood]

I suppose nann was referring to this passage, where Asha apparently suggests that's the way for Stannis to try and be seen as Eddard's equal:

But how does that show that Asha is inferring (=drawing a conclusion) anything? It looks like she’s implying (=stating indirectly) those things, trying to get Stannis to buy into her point of view. I see only implication, nothing of inference. What am I misreading? Asha is stating things indirectly. She is not drawing a conclusion; that would be Stannis’s job, wouldn’t it?

We’ll know whether Stannis bought into what Asha was implying if Stannis takes her up on it in Winds. Nobody knows how that will play out. I don’t foresee a simple beheading. I still think something smells fishy here, and not in a drowned-god sense of fishy either; more like in a greenseer sense. I just don’t know where it’s all going. I’m hoping this is one of those uncommon incidents where Martin surprises us in a good way.

Maybe the original poster just meant to say Stannis but wrote Asha instead. I do that sort of unconscious switcheroo so often it’s a wonder anybody ever knows what I’m saying, including me myself. I can edit things five times and still get myself so tongue-tied that no reasonable person would ever know what I’m saying. Consider this very message. ☹

[Lady Octarina]

But how does that show that Asha is inferring (=drawing a conclusion) anything? It looks like she’s implying (=stating indirectly) those things, trying to get Stannis to buy into her point of view. I see only implication, nothing of inference. What am I misreading? Asha is stating things indirectly. She is not drawing a conclusion; that would be Stannis’s job, wouldn’t it?

We’ll know whether Stannis bought into what Asha was implying if Stannis takes her up on it in Winds. Nobody knows how that will play out. I don’t foresee a simple beheading. I still think something smells fishy here, and not in a drowned-god sense of fishy either; more like in a greenseer sense. I just don’t know where it’s all going. I’m hoping this is one of those uncommon incidents where Martin surprises us in a good way.

Maybe the original poster just meant to say Stannis but wrote Asha instead. I do that sort of unconscious switcheroo so often it’s a wonder anybody ever knows what I’m saying, including me myself. I can edit things five times and still get myself so tongue-tied that no reasonable person would ever know what I’m saying. Consider this very message. ☹

Oh, so that's what you meant by the question. Then I have no idea, it was probably just a mistake, not necessarily between "Stannis" and "Asha", but "implying" and "inferring". Only nann can answer that. :dunno:

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

How many eyes does bloodraven bran have? A thousand eyes and 2.

haha. i think he will continue to have a POV, even if its only a few in the next book,I don't think they'll totally leave us stranded, moreso because then we won't know what happened to Jojen and Meera

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

From the Mel chapter in Dance:

“Show me Stannis Lord, she prayed. Show me your King, your instrument”

Then we have 2 paragraphs of distraction from the question asked. The first one flames swirling, images shifting. The second Mel pondering the vision of the girl on the horse.

“A face took shape in the hearth...A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.”

She asks the flames “show me your King” and the first face she is shown is Bloodraven (King?), ”your instrument” followed by Bran (instrument?).

If BR=Rhllor’s King, does that make Bran a Prince? (tPtwP?) Or is King and instrument both in one of these people, BR or Bran? I would guess Bran if one person. King is a very interesting coice of word to use here.

Later in the chapter:

“beyond the wall, the enemy grows stronger. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boys with the wolf’s face...they were his servants surely...his champions, as Stannis was hers.”

Here I think, Mel is showing us her fallibility, she has misread the flames again. She asks Rhllor for his King and was given what she asked for. BR and/or Bran. And refuses to acknowledge it. I think these quotes are telling us Mel is wrong in interpreting the flames telling her that BR is the enemy’s servant, and that BR is acting on the side of the Lord of Light (whether that is intentional or not on his part).

This could be foreshadowing that Bran is tPtwP. Along with the vision of the “winged snake whose roar was a river of flame” and his being reborn from the crypts amidst smoke and salt. I think there is a case to be made that Bran is AA reborn/tPtwP. aDwD has given us another foreshadow that may fit this being true.

But are Rhllor’s King, Rhllor’s instrument, & AA reborn/tPtwP names for the same individual? Maybe not. Maybe AA reborn/tPtwP are Jon or Dany as many believe, BR is Rhllor’s King, and is training Rhllor’s instrument (Bran) for the coming battle for the dawn. This seems likely to me also, given the foreshadowing of Jon=AA/PtwP. Until Bran picks up a flaming sword anyway.

I submit the above quotes prove that BR and Bran are working on the same side as the Lord of Light, working against the Great Other. (Assuming Mel and the other Red Priests have at least that much right).

Great post. I never thought of it as bran being used as an instrument for r'hllor, but it makes a lot of sense. I really think melisandre is being ignorant lately with her viewing of the flames. she is asking. she is receiving, but she isn't making sense of what she is seeing. when is she going to realize that stannis isn't azor ahai???