Jump to content

[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2


Angalin

Recommended Posts

Last posts of previous thread:

I might agree if we have seen something that suggests something will go wrong for Stannis. Like with Robb we knew the Freys were angry and we knew the Karstarks were angry. If, perhaps, we had a scene where Stannis' men were discussing how angry they were that he burned weirwoods, or Manderly privately confiding how he doesn't trust Stannis. With Robb there was a lot of foreshadowing, especially with Arya's chapters and Roose. With Stannis there just hasn't been that level of foreshadowing. The foreshadowing on the part of Manderly just seems to suggest that he is planning on betraying the Boltons. Manderly doesn't have the option, right now, to let the Boltons and Stannis kill each other because he is right in the middle of it. So I do not see that plan developing that way.

I do agree that there is a reason Robb's will hasn't resurfaced yet, but I see nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with the impending fate of Stannis. Perhaps it could be said that when Manderly gets Rickon he could then turn on Stannis and led the North in a revolt against both Stannis and Bolton (if they're both still around), and I don't disagree that when Robb's will surfaces that there will be plenty of people declaring for the "true" king in the north, Jon. But I do not see some scheme being developed right now by the northmen. I see some biding their time, while others choosing the lesser of two evils.

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that for Robb before the Red Weddings things weren't "too good" like they are for Stannis right now. There was plenty of bad things happening for Robb that suggested something could go wrong. With Stannis that isn't happening. He is in a dire situation, but he is playing all the right cards: he caught the Karstarks before they could turn on him, he has some plan to defeat his enemies, his enemies are all at each other's throats. And things seem good, perhaps too good. But that is not how things were for Robb before the Red Wedding. Robb had some large mistakes that went ignored and it cost him his life. And I definitely think it is possible that things will go bad for Stannis, after all this is George R. R. Martin we're talking about, but I do not think this situation is comparable to the pre-Red Wedding situation.

A godswood is not necessarily a weirdwood forest. It's just a forest used for praying. In the South this means that the woods are used for those of the Faith of the Seven.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you George for an awesome chapter! I love chapters where things actually get accomplished and move the plot forward. This chapter also grew Stannis and Theon’s characters nicely.

I read this entire first 21 page thread and it was an enjoyable read. I love the ASOIF forum because there are some wickedly creative minds at work here and clever analysis is the norm.

I have a few observations.

  • I think Ramsey wrote the pink letter out of desperation. He wants hostages for negotiation. None of the other characters put forth as candidates for the letter writer have all of the information nor as strong a motivation to get all of the people named in the letter as Ramsey.
  • Stannis comes across as an adroit tactician. The way he took Karstark down was slick. He shows no personal interest in killing Theon. He is only planning to do so to appease his allies.
  • I think Asha has a plan and it has something to do with Bloodraven or Bran. She has had some kind of communication with them, likely through dreams and believes his best hope of survival is death in front of a weirwood. And even if it didn’t work out as she wants at least he wouldn’t die by fire which is an abomination for the ironborn.
  • It seems likely now that Mors Umber was the hooded man.
  • Theon has improved in this chapter. He showed wit, pride, and cunning that has been lacking for some time. If he survives he will never be the old Theon. I hope he does survive and we get to see who he transforms into.

I have thought for some time that the Northmen are using Stannis to crush the Bolton’s and Freys and to get Winterfell back. I can not forget that a Liddle knows that Bran escaped alive from Winterfell accompanied by Howland Reed’s children. Manderly believes Rickon to have escaped and be alive. It is highly likely that the Northmen have communicated this information among themselves, at least the remaining clan leaders. I think they know that the boys may be alive and they want all of Ned’s kids back at Winterfell and they will support Stannis now for this alone, however they also are steeped in the old stories and believe the big Winter freeze is upon them and they will need Stannis and his men to protect the Wall and the North from the Others. I do not think that in the end they will bend their knees to Stannis no matter what he does for them. They suffered and lost Ned, his family and Winterfell because of Stannis’s brother, Robert and the Lannisters in the south. They will not want to come under the south’s subjugation again. If they don’t eventually kill Stannis they will at some point not support him, no matter what he does for them. The North always remembers. Stannis is a southerner who apparently burns weirwoods but at the least does not believe in the old gods as they do and he set the wildings free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was a great chapter. At this point, the North and the Wall are the only regions that I care about. The Others can take King's Landing and Meereen, Stannis has changed so much since the whiny, self-entitled prick he was in book 2. This chapter takes place before Ramsay's letter, so Stannis may yet die, but he seems to have a few tricks up his sleeve, and we know Manderly is with him. My prediction is that Bolton's men will arrive, and the Manderly's will immediately begin slaughtering all the Frey bannermen. Manderly may then take Lightbringer and return to Winterfell, telling the Bolton's that Stannis is dead, but that Arya and Theon got away, followed by Manderly's men opening the gates for Stannis.

The only problem is that Stannis still has no heir, besides the sickly Shireen, and no one will bend the knee to her, so this may be all in vain. Interesting that Stannis is sending envoys to Braavos to muster an army. I wonder if this is how Arya will return to Westeros. Maybe Stannis will contract the Faceless Men. Also, with Jon "dead" Jeyne's identity will remain hidden once she reaches the Wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stannis will legitimize Jon and make him his heir. It is known.

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

Nope.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope.

Stannis might want his daughter to succeed him, but no one is going to put their necks on the line for a little girl with dormant greyscale. Nobody. Stannis' power is tenuous as it is without having to rely on his daughter to be his heir. It's damn near impossible for women to get the Iron Throne anyway; all of their male relatives have to be dead.

I'm not sure I believe that Stannis will name Jon as his heir, but I do know that hanging on his ambitions on Shireen is going to end badly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stannis has still got 2 ravens which he could use to dispatch disinformation to Winterfell ( his death ? the capture of his sword ? who has been sent to the wall ? ) who knows what ..that may contribute to the contents of the pink letter. OTOH, he may come to believe that one of the ravens can reach the wall , after all. There might be more than one other raven in a snowstorm to consider.

It doesn't seem likely that Asha would have had much time ( or inclination ) for sleeping and dreaming between her meeting Theon, Jeyne and all in ADWD and this sample chapter.So at this point at least , it doen't seem like she can have had any psychic input fron BR or Bran. She might , though , have had time to talk to Alysanne ,gaining some information about the weirwoods and the old gods , that inform her conversation with Stannis...Maybe.. Maybe she's just trying to save Theon from the final agony of being burned alive.

Still , whether it forms part of a plan on her part or not , it was clear in what Theon tried to blurt to her in their few minutes together, that he is influenced by the old gods, that he believes they speak to him. Even Theon thought it all sounded unbelievable, how must it have sounded to Asha ?..Perhaps she could make some sense of it , perhaps she thinks he may be able to make some kind of a case for himself , in the presence of the tree.

Asha knows Stannis doesn't like to be compared to Robert or have Robert's practices held up as a model for him. Does she sense that he might feel differently about Ned ?

They may all be in for a surprise if Bran's abilities are progressing as rapidly as it seems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alexia: Littlefinger might end up being the one to expose her, when he moves to help Sansa retake Winterfell.

Someone else: Would he try to take Winterfell if Stannis is successful? If Davos comes through she has no claim to it I think Sansa might be staying Alysanne for awhile still unless she weds Aegon instead of Harry which is a stretch.

If Stannis fails and the Vale invades the North, Manderly and Glover wont recognize her as the heir to Winterfell because they know Bran and Rickon are out there somewhere.

I was hoping that Jeyne by exposing Littlefinger's evil, would be the thing that causes Sansa to begin plotting Petyr's downfall.

I was also hopeful that Harold, would not want to marry Alayne Stone, the daughter of a man who imprisons highborn girls in brothels and then hands them over to the Gregor Clegane of the North.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stannis might want his daughter to succeed him, but no one is going to put their necks on the line for a little girl with dormant greyscale. Nobody. Stannis' power is tenuous as it is without having to rely on his daughter to be his heir. It's damn near impossible for women to get the Iron Throne anyway; all of their male relatives have to be dead.

I'm not sure I believe that Stannis will name Jon as his heir, but I do know that hanging on his ambitions on Shireen is going to end badly.

Too bad Stannis is so intent on burning Edric Storm. He could legitimize him, grant him Storm's End, and marry him to Shireen. He has royal blood, and is Robert's acknowleged son, after all. Plus, he has charisma and was raised as a lordling, with a Maester's teaching. Kind of like Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back to what we see happen in the Gift Chapter: I'm wondering about the ravens. It seems probable someone - Bran and/or Bloodraven - is using them to pull strings and in so doing influence events.

There is a problem with this: they depend on the ravens being brought to the spot where things happen, to be able to listen and/or communicate.

At the Wall there is Lord Mormonts Raven, who is always in the vicinity of the Lord Commander.

In the Gift Chapter the ravens were brought in when Maester Tybold was questioned.

I may be reading too much in it but I got the distinct impression that there was some influencing going on by using Theon, before the ravens were brought in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back to what we see happen in the Gift Chapter: I'm wondering about the ravens. It seems probable someone - Bran and/or Bloodraven - is using them to pull strings and in so doing influence events.

There is a problem with this: they depend on the ravens being brought to the spot where things happen, to be able to listen and/or communicate.

At the Wall there is Lord Mormonts Raven, who is always in the vicinity of the Lord Commander.

Do they? If they can possess a raven, could they not have it fly to wherever they need it to go?

As for Mormont's raven, does Bloodraven possess it because it stays close to him, or does it stay close to him because Bloodraven possesses it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always assumed Bloodraven could communicate with Bran because the latter already had psychic powers due to being a potential greenseer. It doesn't seem feasible to me that either of them could contact Asha out of the blue (unless there's some instance of something like that that I don't remember?).

Too bad Stannis is so intent on burning Edric Storm. He could legitimize him, grant him Storm's End, and marry him to Shireen. He has royal blood, and is Robert's acknowleged son, after all. Plus, he has charisma and was raised as a lordling, with a Maester's teaching. Kind of like Jon.

Could he even legitimize Edric without making him the true heir of Robert? That seems like it would undermine his claim to the throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for Mormont's raven, does Bloodraven possess it because it stays close to him, or does it stay close to him because Bloodraven possesses it?

hmm... well Bloodraven always was famous for having a thousand eyes and one, so I'm going with the first part of the statement: he possesses it because its close to a piece person he needs

This is when that old dropped "5 year gap" would be useful! Bran is clearly communicating here (all the screams of Theon, Bloodraven could clearly give fucks 'bout that one) but did he get so good at those powers so damn fast?!?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hmm... well Bloodraven always was famous for having a thousand eyes and one, so I'm going with the first part of the statement: he possesses it because its close to a piece person he needs

I just think there's something to be debated about the cause and effect here. He possesses it because it's close to the person he needs, but could Bloodraven not also be playing a role in making sure the raven stays or goes where he needs it to? It's a chicken/egg situation. For all we know, Mormont never even had a raven at all until Bloodraven possessed one and parked it in front of him.

This is when that old dropped "5 year gap" would be useful! Bran is clearly communicating here (all the screams of Theon, Bloodraven could clearly give fucks 'bout that one) but did he get so good at those powers so damn fast?!?

I kind of like the idea that Bran can communicate through time, not just space. He can see into the past (e.g. Lyanna and Benjen playing at swords); why not the future, too? So it's possible that the Bran communicating with Theon is a "different" Bran (i.e. more powerful and with more hindsight knowledge) than the one with Bloodraven at that moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just think there's something to be debated about the cause and effect here. He possesses it because it's close to the person he needs, but could Bloodraven not also be playing a role in making sure the raven stays or goes where he needs it to? It's a chicken/egg situation. For all we know, Mormont never even had a raven at all until Bloodraven possessed one and parked it in front of him.

hm... but its not like the old bastard could make Mormont keep the raven close. Just parking one in front of him wouldn't guarantee anything

it was just a great coincidence: one day the most 'clever' of the birds took a liking to Mormont (he saw a great opportunity for corn!) and stuck around. The old bean kept the pet out of amusement perhaps, 'cause.. hey, why not! even Black Brothers need a hobby

one day Bloodraven was checking all his thousand eyes... etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hm... but its not like the old bastard could make Mormont keep the raven close. Just parking one in front of him wouldn't guarantee anything

it was just a great coincidence: one day the most 'clever' of the birds took a liking to Mormont (he saw a great opportunity for corn!) and stuck around. The old bean kept the pet out of amusement perhaps, 'cause.. hey, why not! even Black Brothers need a hobby

one day Bloodraven was checking all his thousand eyes... etc

I give up. I'm not sure you're picking up what I'm trying to say. :dunno:

Think of it this way: If you can possess any animal and get it to do whatever you want/need it to, would you be proactive about it, or would you just sit tight and hope that the right bird/horse/wolf/dog/whatever happened to be at the right place at the right time to get the information you wanted or needed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I give up. I'm not sure you're picking up what I'm trying to say. :dunno:

I do get what you're goin for, honest! its just 4am and I clearly should be banned off the internet at crazy-early AM hours as my own thoughts don't seem to come out quite right... The argument made more sense in my head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Observations:

The Bolton's Maester is named Tybald; is he a Lannister keeping an eye on the North? Not that he's likely to continue.

Justin Massey, with the white-blond hair, seems like he might have a touch of the dragon in him. His family were Targaryen loyalists in the past -- might his loyalties shift if he runs into Dany while pursuing sellswords?

Regardless of his awesomeness, I think the Northern Lords don't give a rat's ass about Stannis and his cause, and I think Stannis knows it.

"I know what he wants." The king indicated Theon. "Him. Wull wants him dead. Flint, Norrey . . . all of them will want him dead. For the boys he slew. Vengance for their precious Ned."
Bitter much, Stannis? Anyhoo, I think that if Stannis decides to execute Theon, he'll do it the Northern way and spill king's blood on the weirwood to placate the Northerners . . . if Asha lets him get that far.

I think Asha might have had a tree dream. If Jaime can have one, why not Asha?

I loved the possessed raven tag team. Go Team Tree!

I agree with those posters who say that Ramsay wrote the pink letter in a panic after a defeat. I'd say there's some truth to the letter -- sad to say, he probably did capture one or more spearwives, and perhaps Abel/Mance as well, and that's his source of some info. He may have seen Stannis waving the shining sword before he tucked his tail between his legs and ran back to Winterfell. But imo his main goal is getting hostages that he can use to save his own ass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...