Jump to content

[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2


Angalin

Recommended Posts

Jeyne is a worshiper of the old gods, not the Seven.

yeah but the Seven offers the only career path to women that doesn't involve marriage, which is something that Jeyne might be interested in given her experiences with men (trained in a brothel then Ramsay Bolton=recipe for a life long fear of sex if ever I heard one).

I suppose Jeyne could invent her own brand of Old Gods Septadom, which presumably involves planting trees, living in weirwood groves and giving weird prophecies about maids with purple serpents in their hair.

I wonder what she would call a Septa for the Old Gods? Veleda? Seidkona? spæwīfe? to make up some words weirmagd (maidservant of weir), Groenmagd? It's interesting that even the Green men (whom we have never seen) are well men, though Bran's vision shows that women were the onces doing the sacrificing.

It's just interesting that the North, the primary recruitment base for the Night Watch, has no alternative for all the women who would be left single because the men they could've married, joined the Night's Watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the old thread, somebody mentioned that the Boltons knew 'Arya' was really Jeyne Pool.

Not true.

Tywin Lannister plucked her from Littlefinger's brothel and persuaded her to become 'Arya', and 'Arya' was a gift to the Boltons for their part in betraying the Starks, so they think they have legitimately gained Winterfell.

It was not in 'Arya's' interest to let the Boltons know they had been deceived. The whole 'shooting the messenger' thing, not good to tell someone whose sigil is a flayed man...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arya didn't let them know, but they knew anyway. The Boltons didn't care.

Tywin told Jaime as much after Jaime met her on his return to King's Landing. And Ramsay remembered that Arya had grey eyes. He knew that the girl that was sent to them was not the real deal.

They may not have known that she was in reality Jeyne Poole, but they knew she was not Arya Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the old thread, somebody mentioned that the Boltons knew 'Arya' was really Jeyne Pool.

Not true.

Tywin Lannister plucked her from Littlefinger's brothel and persuaded her to become 'Arya', and 'Arya' was a gift to the Boltons for their part in betraying the Starks, so they think they have legitimately gained Winterfell.

It was not in 'Arya's' interest to let the Boltons know they had been deceived. The whole 'shooting the messenger' thing, not good to tell someone whose sigil is a flayed man...

No, it was Littlefinger himself who did the "persuasion" and then offered her to Tywin for use with the Boltons. Jaime made in clear to Brienne that the Boltons knew what they were getting, but they don't care, all that counts is the thin veneer of legality that it gives to their takeover of Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it was Littlefinger himself who did the "persuasion" and then offered her to Tywin for use with the Boltons. Jaime made in clear to Brienne that the Boltons knew what they were getting, but they don't care, all that counts is the thin veneer of legality that it gives to their takeover of Winterfell.

amazing that he was able to predict that a fake Arya would be needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't make sense for Theon to be a POV for only one chapter - I don't expect him to get executed at the weirwood. Also, we have to many Greyjoy POVs. Conclusion: Asha will try something and be killed as a result.

Now if Theon kills her with Stannis sword, would that make him AA?

No chance. Asha is the one Greyjoy likely to survive the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

amazing that he was able to predict that a fake Arya would be needed.

LF is "crazy prepared". Anyway, originally he probably just planned to use her as a whore in his brothels, but she came in handy when the political situation shifted.

LF needs to die over this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

amazing that he was able to predict that a fake Arya would be needed.

Not really - LF makes good use of his resources. He helped Cersei get rid of Jeyne and kept her around to use in his brothels. When they wanted to cut a deal with Bolton, as usual, a marriage deal came to mind, but they didn't have the Stark girls anymore. It occurred to clever LF that he possessed a girl who knew enough about the Starks and Winterfell to pull off a scam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LF is "crazy prepared". Anyway, originally he probably just planned to use her as a whore in his brothels, but she came in handy when the political situation shifted.

LF needs to die over this.

I agree. I would rather the charade be over as soon as possible, but if not, then I'm hoping that Martin develops Jeyne's character a bit better over the course of heading to the Wall and perhaps to Braavos.

I wonder just how much the Northmen knew about the real Arya. Was her penchant for riding horses and being a bit more wild and tomboyish than her sister well known?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hence my desire to see Ramsay Bolton-with a little bit of kings blood, be executed first. Then Bran will be powerful enough (if the sacrifice is done before a weirwood, which seems likely from Asha's arguments in favour)to inform Stannis of Theon's innocence and Rickon and Davos living status (and also inform Stannis of his relinquishing of the title of "Lord of Winterfell" on the grounds of joining a religious life

http://en.wikipedia....uis_of_Toulouse

Well, much as I want Jeyne to be exposed (and thus expose Littlefinger, starting the process for his much needed downfall) it would be awful for her to die.

Not very impressed with Theon for encouraging her to lie.

If Alys Karstark is at the Karhold, then it is likely that Jeyne and Alysanne will stop there on the way to the wall. Since Alys would have likely played with Jeyne, Sansa and Arya, there is hope that she will recognise her.

I loved the chapter - so much energy, power, drama; it practically crackled! After the slower pace of much of ADWD, the chapter was a breath of fresh Northern air. Who knew that Stannis could be so energizing?

As far as Theon's encouraging Jeyne to lie and continue to say that she was Arya; I really think he was trying to protect her. Jeyne is a 14-year-old girl with no family left. Unlike Sansa, she is not a valuable prize with blood-right to a Great House attached. If she is discovered to be the daughter of the dead Steward of Winterfell, who will bestir themselves to take care of Jeyne, keep her safe in the very dangerous North, send her to a place where she can be live comfortably in peace? If Stannis found out that "Arya" was really Jeyne Poole, he might keep her under his protection while he needs her to tell her story about the Lannisters' perfidy; but Stannis would have no interest in keeping Jeyne safe for years. He'd probably marry her off to any hedge knight in his forces who wanted a young woman regardless of position, and want to be rid of her because she was 'unclean' due to her time in a whorehouse (I'm not sure that Stannis would care that Jeyne was not a willing apprentice). As Lady Arya Stark, Jeyne will at least be physically cherished and might get to have a higher class of suitors - that is what Theon was trying to accomplish for her; since he knows that he will not be able to continue to protect her himself.

Actually, if Jon were still Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he would be a logical recourse to help Jeyne. By feudal custom, Jeyne is part of the household of Winterfell, and the avenging of her father's death, and help to a wronged member of Lady Sansa Stark's personal entourage, is an obligation of the head of House Stark. Jon is, as far as anyone knows, the only remaining link to House Stark who is in a position to help anyone - that is why Alys Karstark sought him out. Jon would at least feel honor-bound to help Jeyne, to find her passage to a safer place than the Wall, perhaps some kindly family to act as her guardians; he might have even asked Alys to take care of Jeyne; the new Thenn-Karstark household might be as safe a place as any for Jeyne.

I really, really want Jeyne to survive the series. She's not a terribly brave girl, but she has been through so much undeserved misery. She was at least brave enough to survive with her sanity intact - I'm not sure that I would have been...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I loved the chapter - so much energy, power, drama; it practically crackled! After the slower pace of much of ADWD, the chapter was a breath of fresh Northern air. Who knew that Stannis could be so energizing?

As far as Theon's encouraging Jeyne to lie and continue to say that she was Arya; I really think he was trying to protect her. Jeyne is a 14-year-old girl with no family left. Unlike Sansa, she is not a valuable prize with blood-right to a Great House attached. If she is discovered to be the daughter of the dead Steward of Winterfell, who will bestir themselves to take care of Jeyne, keep her safe in the very dangerous North, send her to a place where she can be live comfortably in peace? If Stannis found out that "Arya" was really Jeyne Poole, he might keep her under his protection while he needs her to tell her story about the Lannisters' perfidy; but Stannis would have no interest in keeping Jeyne safe for years. He'd probably marry her off to any hedge knight in his forces who wanted a young woman regardless of position, and want to be rid of her because she was 'unclean' due to her time in a whorehouse (I'm not sure that Stannis would care that Jeyne was not a willing apprentice). As Lady Arya Stark, Jeyne will at least be physically cherished and might get to have a higher class of suitors - that is what Theon was trying to accomplish for her; since he knows that he will not be able to continue to protect her himself.

Actually, if Jon were still Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he would be a logical recourse to help Jeyne. By feudal custom, Jeyne is part of the household of Winterfell, and the avenging of her father's death, and help to a wronged member of Lady Sansa Stark's personal entourage, is an obligation of the head of House Stark. Jon is, as far as anyone knows, the only remaining link to House Stark who is in a position to help anyone - that is why Alys Karstark sought him out. Jon would at least feel honor-bound to help Jeyne, to find her passage to a safer place than the Wall, perhaps some kindly family to act as her guardians; he might have even asked Alys to take care of Jeyne; the new Thenn-Karstark household might be as safe a place as any for Jeyne.

I really, really want Jeyne to survive the series. She's not a terribly brave girl, but she has been through so much undeserved misery. She was at least brave enough to survive with her sanity intact - I'm not sure that I would have been...

a great post Raksha, as usual.

What are your thoughts on Jeyne as a Silent Sister, Septa, or even founder of an Old Gods equivalent?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stannis does what he wants in regards to the Wall, but if he can't persuade Jon to take the office he wants him to take, then Stannis can't force him. Better persuasion (or changed circumstances) may make Jon reconsider, though. After all, he has always wanted Winterfell, but the idea of taking what is rightfully property of his brothers and sisters has also filled him with guilt. Robb's letter could be a powerful stimulant for Jon to take it anyway, with Robb's blessing (and possibly Bran's as well).

Which is why, this third time, Jon will NOT break. He will refuse Winterfell, legitimization as a Stark, life as a lord and king and husband and father - in short, sacrifice everything he has always wanted and holds most dear - and honor his vow to the Night's Watch. And ipso facto, Lightbringer is forged.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding Rob's will: I don't think it will influence anyone but the Northern Lords, but ultimately their support is essential to anyone who would claim Winterfell and be Warden of the North.

Y'know, Roose, evil bastard that he is, appears to be an intelligent man. However, I don't know how he expected to rule the North after participating in the Red Wedding where every house of note lost one or more members. And it seems really, I dunno -- unrealistic? unwise? -- of him to command the attendance of hostile Lords at Winterfell even with the additional Frey troops and "Arya." He is surrounded inside and outside Winterfell.

But I think he may be dead, giving Ramsay yet another reason to write that hysterical letter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure that Jeyne would follow the reasoning that remaining Arya will make her safe.. She might try to run away to avoid meeting Jon. Jon is the one person in Westeros who will know that she is not Arya Stark. Maybe Theon was trying to protect Jeyne. But he was certainly protecting himself, too, when he made her keep up her pretense. The northern lords want him dead. The fact that he saved Arya Stark may be the only point in his favor. If they find out that the girl isn't Arya Stark, his heroic action will move people a lot less.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thought:

Do we know whether Stannis was privy to Melisandre's ruse about Mance Rayder? The Queen's Men delivering Rattleshirt to his cage obviously were, but what if Stannis himself is ignorant about this? If he would learn about it during/after the battle with Bolton forces, that would please him the slightest.

If Melisandre played that glamor force through to deceive Stannis as well as the NW and the wildlings, this will drive him away from her, I guess. And even if he was privy to the farce, this deception is now a stain on his honor, so he will have to distance himself from it.

But do we believe he knew about it? Mel would have played a dangerous game keeping it from him, since she intended to make use of Mance for the coming war. And I'm not sure she could have down that, without eventually revealing his identity, at least to the people who matter (Jon & Stannis, after he returned to the Wall).

As to Robb's will:

Wasn't that document given to Maegen Mormont and Galbart Glover, who, in turn, were supposed to go to Greywater Watch? They have no ravens there. So I guess Robb's last will has not yet reappeared. If it does, it will with Howland Reed, Maege Mormont, and Galbart Glover. And they will learn from Reed the truth about Jon's parentage, so him being declared the heir to the King in the North will be the least of his problems, after it is revealed that he was Rhaegar's son by Lyanna.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Stannis has much time left. In fact, I think Ramsay's letter declaring him dead may actually be true.

Theon's repeated warnings about Ramsay being the one Stannis should fear, combined with Stannis's confident dismissals of those warnings, feel like foreshadowing to me.

Also, the Shireen contingency plan is now in place so it makes sense that GRRM would want to play out that scenario with Massey leading an army across the Narrow Sea to avenge Stannis/take the throne in the next book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure that Jeyne would follow the reasoning that remaining Arya will make her safe.. She might try to run away to avoid meeting Jon. Jon is the one person in Westeros who will know that she is not Arya Stark.

Jeyne knows that Jon is a good man, and he is the brother of her childhood best friend. They grew up together. So she'll want to meet up with Jon, as he can protect her without her needing to keep up a big lie at the risk of her life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thought:

Do we know whether Stannis was privy to Melisandre's ruse about Mance Rayder? The Queen's Men delivering Rattleshirt to his cage obviously were, but what if Stannis himself is ignorant about this? If he would learn about it during/after the battle with Bolton forces, that would please him the slightest.

If Melisandre played that glamor force through to deceive Stannis as well as the NW and the wildlings, this will drive him away from her, I guess. And even if he was privy to the farce, this deception is now a stain on his honor, so he will have to distance himself from it.

But do we believe he knew about it? Mel would have played a dangerous game keeping it from him, since she intended to make use of Mance for the coming war. And I'm not sure she could have down that, without eventually revealing his identity, at least to the people who matter (Jon & Stannis, after he returned to the Wall).

I would be willing to bet that Stannis did not know about the Rattleshirt/Mance switch. Stannis would not spare a deserter, even if it would help his cause. I think that Mel went behind his back, and I think that, when Stannis finds out, it will do more than just drive a wedge between them. Stannis burned Alester Florent for going behind his back and trying to negotiate terms with the Lannisters after the Blackwater defeat. I don't think he will take kindly to Melisandre deceiving him, and - if he remains the Stannis that we know and love - I think he will either need to exile or execute her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...