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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2


Angalin

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I get the feeling (based mostly on absolutely nothing) that it's a choice between the two main characters in this chapter. Either Theon or Stannis will die. Not necessarily in the Winterfell battle, but sometime in TWOW, probably early, rather than late.

Again, it's just a feeling, but if I had to lay odds, I'd say it's 3-1 in favour of Theon dying.

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a great post Raksha, as usual.

What are your thoughts on Jeyne as a Silent Sister, Septa, or even founder of an Old Gods equivalent?

Thanks, Voodooqueen.

I don't see Jeyne as that much of an innovator, so I'm not sure she would found an equivalent of the Septas in the Old Gods' religion. But the Septas might be a refuge for her. I think she could change her religion if it meant a refuge where she could live comfortably and not have to be raped again. She probably has good memories of Septa Mordane, who was at least a presence in the Winterfell household. I don't want her to become a Silent Sister; it sounds like a very bleak life.

Jeyne could reunite with Sansa and become her lady-in-waiting/companion; which could be good for both of them - if that's what Jeyne wants to do. I doubt that Sansa would ever force Jeyne to marry anyone. I do want to see them reunited. They would have a lot to say to each other, and they shared terrible times...

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I get the feeling (based mostly on absolutely nothing) that it's a choice between the two main characters in this chapter. Either Theon or Stannis will die. Not necessarily in the Winterfell battle, but sometime in TWOW, probably early, rather than late.

Again, it's just a feeling, but if I had to lay odds, I'd say it's 3-1 in favour of Theon dying.

I doubt that Theon will survive the series. He doesn't really have anywhere to go. I'm not sure that the Ironborn would accept him as King, he is physically damaged goods and they value physical strength. I don't think Theon is completely in his right mind, either, though perhaps he could recover with rest and care. But who would want to take him in - even if he admits that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, he is responsible for the murder of two little boys and their mother, and he did invade Winterfell and murder various Stark retainers.

I could see Theon taking the Black (if Jon's not around), though.

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I enjoyed the Chapter Gift and understand the kudo's that are given to Stannis. In my mind I still hear the screams of those people he burned, though.

That's why I do not want Stannis to become King - unless he repudiates Rhlorr and Melisandre; his becoming King would not only kindle a possibly huge and bloody war with the Faith of the Seven, there would be more burnings, and I am not in favor of burning even criminals alive (I don't classify those poor starving men who resorted to cannibalism as criminals, but even if it is an offense punishable by death in Westeros, they didn't deserve to be burned alive - no one does). Stannis nearly capitulated to the persuasion of Melisandre and Selyse that he burn his 12-year-old nephew alive to raise a stone dragon; that's not a man I want to see on any throne.

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Jeyne knows that Jon is a good man, and he is the brother of her childhood best friend. They grew up together. So she'll want to meet up with Jon, as he can protect her without her needing to keep up a big lie at the risk of her life.

No, she doesn't. She knew only the boy, and not even very well at that. She knew that Catelyn didn't like her husband's bastard son very much, and he was not especially close with Sansa. Jon has changed alot in the years since they left Winterfell. From what I know of Jon, he very likely would protect her. Jeyne wouldn't necessarily know or believe it.

I would be willing to bet that Stannis did not know about the Rattleshirt/Mance switch. Stannis would not spare a deserter, even if it would help his cause. I think that Mel went behind his back, and I think that, when Stannis finds out, it will do more than just drive a wedge between them. Stannis burned Alester Florent for going behind his back and trying to negotiate terms with the Lannisters after the Blackwater defeat. I don't think he will take kindly to Melisandre deceiving him, and - if he remains the Stannis that we know and love - I think he will either need to exile or execute her.

What Melisandre did was not as bad as what Alester Florent did. Alester Florent tried to give up Stannis' royalty behind Stannis' back.. Melisandre only helped a man to flee justice, and she did so to help Stannis keep his crown. Stannis will not be happy with her but she did not commit treason in the way Ser Alester did.

But even if Stannis learns that Mance Rayder is still alive, this will not necessarily point him directly to Melisandre. They might have caught the wrong man, or Jon might get implicated in the switch. We'll have to wait and see.

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Yikes! 2nd thread already... I haven't had time to read them all yet, so apologies if this has been pointed out already, but I feel a need to point out something that struck me as too much to be entirely coincidental:

Theon in this new chapter: "He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek."

The pink letter: "I want my bride back. <snip> And I want my Reek."

Did Theon have had a hand in writing this letter? If so, to what end? Why try to trick Jon Snow? I can't stop wondering about this.

I really tried hard not to read this sample chapter. This major effort lasted all of about 15 minutes. Sigh...

Now I can't wait for the other TWoW sample chapter GRRM said would be in the back of the paperback edition of ADWD available as of next July!

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Yikes! 2nd thread already... I haven't had time to read them all yet, so apologies if this has been pointed out already, but I feel a need to point out something that struck me as too much to be entirely coincidental:

Theon in this new chapter: "He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek."

The pink letter: "I want my bride back. <snip> And I want my Reek."

Did Theon have had a hand in writing this letter? If so, to what end? Why try to trick Jon Snow? I can't stop wondering about this.

Maybe Theon did it to try to get Jon away from the Wall so that when Jeyne arrives the secret that she isn't Arya won't be out? :dunno: Makes no sense I know, which is why I still kinda believe Ramsay wrote the letter, but why no flayed piece of flesh?

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Thanks, Voodooqueen.

I don't see Jeyne as that much of an innovator, so I'm not sure she would found an equivalent of the Septas in the Old Gods' religion. But the Septas might be a refuge for her. I think she could change her religion if it meant a refuge where she could live comfortably and not have to be raped again. She probably has good memories of Septa Mordane, who was at least a presence in the Winterfell household. I don't want her to become a Silent Sister; it sounds like a very bleak life.

Jeyne could reunite with Sansa and become her lady-in-waiting/companion; which could be good for both of them - if that's what Jeyne wants to do. I doubt that Sansa would ever force Jeyne to marry anyone. I do want to see them reunited. They would have a lot to say to each other, and they shared terrible times...

I actually remember that at the hands tourney, when Jeyne was distressed by Gregor, Septa Mordane was the one who took her off and comforted her (I think this is what enables Sandor to be alone with Sansa actually but I am not sure).

and Silent Sisters=Carmelites, presumably they must have likable aspects to their order otherwise who would join (admittedly every known member seems to have been a hostage (Alysanne Osgrey) a victim of seduction and stillbirth (Waynwood girl), a dwarf (Tyrion mentions her in ADWD)...

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I think a lot of the "Theon is doomed" comments are based on the idea that Theon's path of redemption is complete. Couldn't the argument be made that it isn't? If this were a normal series, with a normal author, I think we'd see Theon eventually find himself in a confrontation with Ramsey.

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I think a lot of the "Theon is doomed" comments are based on the idea that Theon's path of redemption is complete. Couldn't the argument be made that it isn't? If this were a normal series, with a normal author, I think we'd see Theon eventually find himself in a confrontation with Ramsey.

No confrontation with Ramsey, but certainly one with Euron coming in my view, and if anyone's arc is finished I really think it should legitimately be Stannis'.

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I think the fact that Theon is the first POV chapter shows he's not long for this world.

About the letter and Stannis' chances though:

Stannis won't be backstabbed by the Karstarks, so false alarm there. :thumbsup: Manderly and Frey are approaching separately, with the Manderlys ready to defect and the Freys led by an idiot. But...

Stannis has no idea what he is up against with Ramsay. :bang:

It's entirely likely that Ramsay defeats Stannis before the Manderlys arrive and after the Freys are destroyed (let's hope not). During these events, Theon escapes and will later pop up and kill a triumphant Ramsay.

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I think the fact that Theon is the first POV chapter shows he's not long for this world.

Who says Theon is the first POV chapter? Normally the books starts with a prologue, anyway, and this is not the prologue.

Stannis has no idea what he is up against with Ramsay. :bang:

It's entirely likely that Ramsay defeats Stannis before the Manderlys arrive and after the Freys are destroyed (let's hope not). During these events, Theon escapes and will later pop up and kill a triumphant Ramsay.

Ramsay isn't a military genius nor a superfighter - Stannis has defeated Victarion at sea, he can defeat Ramsay in the snow. Since it is Stannis who is preparing an ambush and Ramsay who is a rash commander, it is rather likely Ramsay will be defeated (though he may escape back to Winterfell).

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I think a lot of the "Theon is doomed" comments are based on the idea that Theon's path of redemption is complete. Couldn't the argument be made that it isn't? If this were a normal series, with a normal author, I think we'd see Theon eventually find himself in a confrontation with Ramsey.

He's got no long-term prospects. The best he can hope for is to help his sister dethrone Euron Crowseye ('cuz let's face it, Asha is the only Greyjoy who isn't irremediably stupid or insane) and then accept sweet release in death.

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His redemption complete? I think his insistence that Jeyne keep playing Arya is more for his benefit than for hers. He's just the same Theon as before. Just scared of being handed back to Ramsay, now.

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