Miryana Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 And if it isn't oathbreaking then WHY DID JON SAY GOING WITH HIM WOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OATH?????It's Jon. He's very anxious when it comes to his oaths and errs on the side of caution because he doesn't want to get complacent and end up in a situation where he'd justify what can't be justified. So his interpretation is sometimes more harsh than it need be. Jon isn't like Jaime, who smugly congratulated himself on keeping his oath to Catelyn after he, the confessed would-be killer of one Tully child, had threatened to have a Tully baby killed and ensured that Riverrun was handed over to the rule of those who murdered Tullys in violation of sacred guestright and mutilated their corpses... because he didn't literally raise a sword against a Tully, despite being the head of the anti-Tully army and threatening to order their deaths, it was somehow the height of oathkeeping. Jaime thinks of the most literal interpretation possible, while Jon is worried about breaking the spirit of his oath - not even always the actual oath, but some of the additional ideas about neutrality that have come to be associated with it. So just because a POV character thinks or says something, that doesn't necessarily mean it's what the law or the majority of people would agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 This is not about keeping the spirit of his oath. Both Jaime and Jon try to keep the spirit, and know what is important (at least. what is important for them). There is the oath, and then there are long held beliefs how those oaths should be interpreted, and additional laws to govern daily life. These corollaries are not part of the oath itself but rather additional rules to live by.The corollary that the Night's Watch has to stay out of Westerosi conflicts, has to stay neutral, was formed in a time when Westeros was split into many different kingdoms, and the Night'S Watch had to make sure that they were not considered yet another kingdom to be conquered. It has been part of Night's Watch tradition for so long, that its members no longer wonder why the rules have been set up, if they still make sense; they are commandments to be religiously followed. I think Jon is actually keeping the spirit of the NW oath by ignoring some additional rules which need to be adjusted to modern times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I know I am late but I just got to say I really enjoyed the Theon chapter. I liked what I saw of Stannis and his actions, will be interesting too see how this all will play out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johirrim Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Brilliant. I just loved the interaction between Stannis and Theon in this chapter. Stannis confidence and Theons whimsical nonchalance ( except at the mention at of Ramsay, for which he regress backs into the hysterical and paranoid Reek ) seem to hint at a character growth, or rather, a restoration of their true character. It would seem to me that Stannis is well rid of Melissandre, as his character seem to deteriorate the longer he is with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfail Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Jon tells them that they would be breaking their oaths because by leaving the Wall to attack Winterfell, they would be abandoning their watch. You can't just bail to go wreak vengeance on some clown, because that is considered desertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladywhiskers Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Why is the one who talks so often of others bending the knee unable of doing the deed himself? What does that say about him?It says that he knows that he's the real scion of the Baratheon family, the lawful king, and has no business bending the knee to anyone. When Robert was on the throne, Stannis' knee bent quite as easily as anyone else's. If someone were to truly prove to Stannis that his claim is invalid or unlawful, (by reason of proving his own illegitimacy, for instance,) I think Stannis would quickly bend. As it is, he's the true king, and he has to fight for his rights. Of course he couldn't bend the knee to Renly--what older brother in history ever gave the throne away to his younger brother without a fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 @ Winterfail:It is not desertion if your commander orders you to go south on Watch business (like Dareon, Sam, and Aemon), nor is it desertion if you go visit your family (like Benjen Stark), nor is it desertion if you fulfill your orders to infiltrate the enemy (Jon). What is important is that you have permission of your commander, and that the Watch is not abandoned by all brothers at the same time. If Jon gives permission to go to Winterfell, it's not desertion as he is the Lord Commander. But as Lord Commander it is his duty to make sure that enough brothers remain at the Wall so that their Watch will not be abandoned.Jon decided that not enough brothers are left to be sent to Winterfell. That is why going to WInterfell would be desertion not because they would be wreaking vebgeance on some clown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfail Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yes, it is the bailing that causes the desertion, not the vengeance. By ordering the Watch to attack Winterfell, he would have been ordering desertion, as the Wall would not have been manned. You are correct, but I assumed that was a given, so I did not articulate it in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword of the North Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not sure if this is related, but could that last scene Bran saw as a tree, the old man and the woman with a sickle or something, be Theon and Asha? Don't have my book, so I can't go back, but could it have been Bran looking into the future?Sorry if this has been already brought up, or just completely wrong and off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not sure if this is related, but could that last scene Bran saw as a tree, the old man and the woman with a sickle or something, be Theon and Asha? Don't have my book, so I can't go back, but could it have been Bran looking into the future?Sorry if this has been already brought up, or just completely wrong and off topic.Don't worry, some thinking has to be recycled, often new insights arise - and not everybody reads all posts Good thinking about the old man as Theon is described as looking old.But I took the dream scene as going back in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamcatcher Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Here is the paragraph in question, in the end of the last Bran chapter in ADwD:"Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.“No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. There is definitely no Asha here, but......Could it be Daenerys in the future? WHITE HAIRED woman. Dany's with the Dothraki again, and the Dothraki's weapon of choice is this. Pretty sickle-y to me.Then again, I may be looking too much into things... I can't see Dany killing someone like that, she's too emotional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not sure if this is related, but could that last scene Bran saw as a tree, the old man and the woman with a sickle or something, be Theon and Asha? Don't have my book, so I can't go back, but could it have been Bran looking into the future?Sorry if this has been already brought up, or just completely wrong and off topic.Is it an old man? Dreamcatcher provided the text. I see a bearded person, which isn't the one sickled, that's 'a captive' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis the Great Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I thought it was made quite clear that the weirwood tree's memories were going back in time with each flash shown to Bran as demonstrated by the diminishing size of the tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I thought it was made quite clear that the weirwood tree's memories were going back in time with each flash shown to Bran as demonstrated by the diminishing size of the tree.Quite. And besides that I doubt it would be Dany. And is a sickle the same as an arakh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panther Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Nice gift from GRRM. Two thoughts:Perhaps Manderly will meet Stannis at the weirwood. This would be a good way to get them together.What is the letter on the table that Stannis is reading sealed with black wax that Theon knows the contents of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kephv Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 1. Manderly on ice is a sure way to make it fall through. So no.2. The one that Jon sent him to warn him of the Karstarks' treachery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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