[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2

[Tini]

Asha seemed very resigned at the end of ADWD before her men caught up with her. Her attempt to join Stannis was unsuccessful, and she wondered if she'd be able to escape burning by making them kill her first. I can see her asking Stannis to kill her brother northern style to prevent him dying in fire.

Asha's request in the chapter held a hint of challenge. Ned Stark might have sentenced Theon to death as well but it is well known that he would have carried out the sentence himself. Does she believe that Stannis doesn't have the determination to carry out the sentence himself? If she does, she obviously never heard about Davos Seaworth's fingers.

If she doesn't believe that Stannis will cave in, the challenge might still be enough to make sure that her brother will not get killed until Stannis has the time to take him to a weirwood. There is no weirwood in Stannis camp, and they currently don't have the leisure to go looking for weirwoods.

She may just be trying to buy Theon some time, and a gentler death than death by fire. Maybe. Maybe she also aims at creating unrest among Stannis' men. She knows that some of the more fanatic Queen's Men think that she would've made a better sacrifice to R'hllor than the starving soldiers. The Queen's Men are also upset about Stannis not acting against the unbelievers in his host. So far Stannis has just refused to take action against the followers of the Old Gods. What will the Queen's Men think of him when he offers human sacrifice to the Old Gods? What will they do? I think they'll go into open rebellion, and Asha might just be pushing for that outcome.

ETA: And Stannis is sending Massey away, who was a voice of reason among the Queen's Men. The religious divide is going to cause problems for Stannis.

[the Scorpion Knight]

How will stannis react when theon blurs out the truth

( or the tree urges theon to tell tell them the truth)

[Lord Varys]

The Queen's Men should hold their tongues. Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, if they start talking back to him, he will behead them with Lightbringer. End of story ;-).

As to Ramsay: The man is not hardcore, he likes to flay and torture people, and seeing him from Theon's POV he is the devil in human flesh, when in fact he is nothing special, besides being sadistic, evil and treacherous. He is not battle-hardened, in fact, the one and only battle he fought and won was the Battle at Winterfell, where he won through betrayal and deception.

He was as stupid as to suggest to rush to Stannis to bring the battle to him. I don't see any chance for him to win the coming battle, without the betrayal of the Karstarks.

He has not even the sense to keep his perverse inclinations secret, honestly believing he can cow and rule an entire realm through fear alone. Without Roose, the man is lost. And even Roose himself does not care much about him. His role in the game was to put fear in the hearts of the Bolton enemies, but as soon as Stannis would be defeated and 'Arya' pregnant, Ramsay would have to go. Roose is not going to allow this creature to kill his other trueborn children, nor would he allow him to undo his rule in the North.

Lady Dustin indicated Roose might aim at the Kingship in the North. Can anyone truly believe that Roose would want Ramsay to succeed him as King? Come on...

[ShadowRaven]

I hope they will start a quest where they will find Bran and bring him back to Winterfell.

Bran is the rightful Lord of Winterfell and by right the next King in the North! If the people in the north find out he is a greenseer, has powers of the trees and is superb magically, who do you think they will bend the knee for? A southerner? Or a Stark? That's right!

I do hope GRRM has more in store for Bran, because simply having him attached to a tree and squeeking words isn't enough imho.

[Walder_Frey]

Why doesn't Theon let Stannis know that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon? He goes so far as to say that they were the miller's boys, but he doesn't come out and tell that they weren't actually killed under his watch.

I think that would do a lot to mollify the angry northern lords.

[Nev yn]

- the voice sounds somewhat like Ramsay (if he would refer to someone as a bastard so blatantly despite his own sensitivity to the word?).

That is a point in favor of it being Ramsay, to me. Theon has seen Jon have to deal with a decade or so of vitriol from Cat for being a bastard. If he was trying to goad him into acting, he would have insulted Ned directly instead of insulting Jon's birth status. Whereas, to Ramsay, calling someone a bastard is the worst thing you could do, and definitely a sure way to incite a reaction.

Why? Theon warns him several times how hardcore Ramsay is, and tells him not to mess with him. Stannis casually blows him off, as if "the Bastard" is a nobody... In hindsight, Stannis should've listened to Theon.

Ramsay is a nobody, unless you're completely under his power like Theon was. He's not a commander, nor particularly crafty or cunning. It makes sense that a spider should be scared of a kid who is going to rip its legs off one by one -- an adult, less so.

Without Roose, the man is lost. And even Roose himself does not care much about him. His role in the game was to put fear in the hearts of the Bolton enemies, but as soon as Stannis would be defeated and 'Arya' pregnant, Ramsay would have to go.

This doesn't fit Roose's words, at all. He straight out said it's likely for the best that Ramsay would kill any of his trueborn children, as "boy lords are the death of a household". The same would hold true for any of Ramsay's children, so there is no reason to see Ramsay having a child as providing the opportunity to get rid of him. Like it or not, Ramsay is Roose's only heir, and he has no plans otherwise. Unless he's going to have both Ramsay and Fat Walda have accidents and marry "Arya" himself, anyway.

[slayer420]

I dont know why people are having trouble with the ravens going one way. We have been told about cages of ravens on the road. I think it was yoran taking ravens from KL to the wall. The fact that they only go one way was something that I already knew. I didnt think it was new info.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Why doesn't Theon let Stannis know that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon? He goes so far as to say that they were the miller's boys, but he doesn't come out and tell that they weren't actually killed under his watch.

I think that would do a lot to mollify the angry northern lords.

does he ever get the opputurnity?

[Tini]

Why doesn't Theon let Stannis know that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon? He goes so far as to say that they were the miller's boys, but he doesn't come out and tell that they weren't actually killed under his watch.

I think that would do a lot to mollify the angry northern lords.

Would they believe him? He has no proof. They'd just think he is lyin to protect his own sorry skin. And he'd still be responsible for killing the miller's sons.

[cybroleach]

This doesn't fit Roose's words, at all.

You mean Roose as he talks to Theon who he just pointed out he knows is spying on him for Ramsay. You want us to take those words as truthful from cold cunning roose?

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Without p

[Tini]

I dont know why people are having trouble with the ravens going one way. We have been told about cages of ravens on the road. I think it was yoran taking ravens from KL to the wall. The fact that they only go one way was something that I already knew. I didnt think it was new info.

I wonder how the ravens carrying the message of Cersei's trial found Jaime, then. I would expect to hear much more often of messages not reaching their intended destination because their was currently no raven available who was trained to fly to the correct destination. And I still wonder why the maesters are considered so super special for dealing with the ravens.

[Nev yn]

You mean Roose as he talks to Theon who he just pointed out he knows is spying on him for Ramsay. You want us to take those words as truthful from cold cunning roose?

Considering that we've seen the truth of his words, yes, they make perfect sense from cold cunning Roose. To all of Westeros, a boy lord recently killed off an ancient house, and he was almost a man, not a new babe in swaddling clothes like any child of Roose or Ramsay would be. That sort of cynicism and calculation is perfectly in character. And why would he lie on this point to Theon? Do you think Ramsay expects Roose to be happy about how he killed his son? If not, why lie and state that he is? If anything, this dialogue is Roose basically encouraging Ramsay to kill any of Roose's future kids. Is that really the interpretation you're forwarding? Roose is trying to get Ramsay to kill his future kids, but he thinks it's bad for House Bolton?

And I still wonder why the maesters are considered so super special for dealing with the ravens.

Because the Maesters own and train the ravens. And they don't share their knowledge in ravencraft (granted, it appears to be limited training) with those not initiated in their order, so that they retain the insight into the nobles' thoughts and actions. Was there ever a place where Maesters and their ravens were characterized as "super special"? It read to me more that nobles saw no downside to having a resident Maester, and many upsides. So there was no need to upturn the apple cart by trying to breed and train their own ravens, when their Maesters already take care of it.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Without proof, like one of the Stark boys with a pet direwolf, nobody will believe Theon. And he knows it.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Considering that we've seen the truth of his words, yes, they make perfect sense from cold cunning Roose. To all of Westeros, a boy lord recently killed off an ancient house, and he was almost a man, not a new babe in swaddling clothes like any child of Roose or Ramsay would be.. That sort of cynicism and calculation is perfectly in character.

let's just agree that roose is trapped between the devil and the sea

Without proof, like one of the Stark boys with a pet direwolf, nobody will believe Theon. And he knows it.

or wyman or wex to vouch for him

[FanTasy]

There is a chain maesters can earn in ravenry, so they seem to have an important role in securing communication between castles.

Next to caring for the sick and wounded this could be the reason why lords would send for maesters. They will pay for them, I suspect, the Citadel must have some financing.

I guess the maesters who serve a castle will order ravens and possibly trained ravens.

If there is demand there will be supply, so there will be raven sellers and raven trainers, I suspect.

We know that Yoren came back from Kings Landing with a cage full of ravens, Probably those ravens were meant for sending messages to Kings Landings.

There were several raven cages at the Wall, maybe separate cages with ravens for each location the Wall expected to communicate with.

Well, Sam is at the Citadel, hopefully we will learn more from him when he tries to earn his ravenry chain.

[slayer420]

I wonder how the ravens carrying the message of Cersei's trial found Jaime, then. I would expect to hear much more often of messages not reaching their intended destination because their was currently no raven available who was trained to fly to the correct destination. And I still wonder why the maesters are considered so super special for dealing with the ravens.

Cat said many times that t info must not go by raven because it is not that safe to send by raven because they might mess it up.

also Maesters dutys are,

Teacher

historan

adviser

healer

ravens would come at the end of this I would think.

[Lord Varys]

Roose and Ramsay:

1. As already has been pointed out, Roose talks to Theon here, and is fully aware that he spying for Ramsay. So he would not indicate to Theon in the slightest that he considers killing Ramsay.

And that seems to work splendidly. If some readers bought that explanation, Ramsay might as well ;-).

2. Roose most certainly does not intend to die in the near future. The man is extremely cautious, evades any risk of being harmed in battle, and is also obsessed with his own health. There is no reason that he might not live another thirty years. He is only well past forty. Considering that he might die early is completely out of character for him. Especially if we take Lady Dustin's evaluation of him at face value, who stated that Roose considers other people mere playthings to amuse him.

So there is really no reason to believe he would not live to see his sons by Lady Walda to grow to manhood, nor do I believe he intends to allow Ramsay to ruin all the both of them have accomplished during this war. As of yet, he still is a useful tool, but I'm think he will soon have outlived his usefulness.

Without 'Lady Arya' Roose has little reason to keep him around much longer, especially since Lady Dustin - his most powerful and loyal follower among the Northern Lords - can't stand him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Stannis. It's a shame it feels like he's doomed by Dany's return, because he just keeps on getting more awesome and kingly. The candidate everyone dismissed as too unpopular to rule is the most competent one right now and rocks when he listens to advisors like Davos and Jon.

Yeah, it was far more satisfying to think about Dany knocking Stannis down a peg when she was still sympathetic and he was just kind of an asshole. Now it's just depressing. :(

[Jamie Lannister]

Anyone else notice the line about Reek the Second "making him" kill those two boys? Eh. Curious.