[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 2

[Lord Godric]

I think that the supposed hate, by the northmen, for Stannis is overstated in this thread (or the last one, anyway). Stannis may have burnt a weirwood tree here or there, but he even did so at the wall (when the wildlings surrendered) and this didn't stop Jon Snow, a number of wildlings including Mance Rayder, nor the mountain clans of siding with him. If he now starts to show respect to the north and its customs by going to execute Theon "their way" (with the execution probably getting stopped in some way, maybe by Freys attacking in the nick of time or by intervention of Bloodraven/Bran), I think Stannis may be well on the way to making himself acceptable as king for the northmen. He sure is a lot better than the Bolton/Frey alliance, from their POV, as long as he doesn't go completely Melisandre's way (and presently he seems to turn away somewhat from her).

I agree. We have seen nothing to suggest that those who have sworn allegiance to Stannis are weary of him or his actions. Like I mentioned previously if there was some discontent among the ranks it would have to be shown to us, and we have seen nothing of the sort except for some throwaway line in this Theon chapter about men being confused as to what was happening and Stannis needing to address them to explain things.

[FanTasy]

Anyone else notice the line about Reek the Second "making him" kill those two boys? Eh. Curious.

Yep. But I read it as Theon killed the boys because Ramsay suggested it. Ramsay at that time being the second Reek,

I always suspected that it was not Ramsay but Theon who killed the miller boys. He tried to convince himself that Ramsay made him do it.

[George Snow]

The editors better get on the damn raven thing and fix it!! Seriously, the birds are one-way?!? So all the bazillion letters sent flyin around for previous 5 books were just... random location roulette?!? Do they have lil destination labels permanently tied to their lil legs while they're in the cages? (unless the maester is just trollin' Stannis. That would make more sense, but probably not in that content)

Westeros - y u no invent pony express

GRRM likes to ground his fantasy in reality. The ravens are a take on Homing Pigeons. There is a reason why they are called Homing Pigeons. They recall their home, and when transported to a place, they can fly home. No, I don't see GRRM changing the ravens so that most can fly between two places. And in previous books, they have talked about shipping ravens. As far as I can tell, the only special ravens that we have seen are the white ones that can fly to some place that is not their home, because I doubt if every Lord has raised a white raven. This is besides the ravens that are probably possessed by Bran or BR.

GH

[Lord Godric]

Yeah, it was far more satisfying to think about Dany knocking Stannis down a peg when she was still sympathetic and he was just kind of an asshole. Now it's just depressing. :(

Agreed. When I first remember reading about Dany having to defeat the blue-eyed king, I was happy to think of Dany defeating Stannis. Now, I do not want Dany to sit the throne and I think that Stannis would be a much better ruler.

[Jory]

Well, there's still some hope, Apple Martini, Lord Godric. They call her the "slayer of lies", but the lie is not necessarily Stannis. The lie might just be that Stannis is Azor Ahai. It irritates me that those prophecies are there, though, because I don't want to go to the play if I just sat through the dress rehearsal. If I know Daenerys is going to slay the lies of Stannis and Aegon, and that Tommen and Myrcella will die, etc... it takes a lot out of it.

[Lord Godric]

GRRM likes to ground his fantasy in reality. The ravens are a take on Homing Pigeons. There is a reason why they are called Homing Pigeons. They recall their home, and when transported to a place, they can fly home. No, I don't see GRRM changing the ravens so that most can fly between two places. And in previous books, they have talked about shipping ravens. As far as I can tell, the only special ravens that we have seen are the white ones that can fly to some place that is not their home, because I doubt if every Lord has raised a white raven. This is besides the ravens that are probably possessed by Bran or BR.

GH

I don't think that GRRM has really thought through the one-way raven thing though. It would mean that someone would have to cage a raven shortly after getting it and have it carried back to the castle from which is came. It would make much more sense for ravens to be able to fly between two different places. It must also mean that each castle has a large number of ravens that will specifically travel to one castle because the time between sending the letter and getting the raven back has to be very, very long.

[Chise]

GRRM likes to ground his fantasy in reality. The ravens are a take on Homing Pigeons. There is a reason why they are called Homing Pigeons. They recall their home, and when transported to a place, they can fly home. No, I don't see GRRM changing the ravens so that most can fly between two places.

I know its the internet and all, but I'm not that dumb. I know its a pigeons reference twisted up

However, the specific information about the ravens still needs editing. After chapters upon chapters of ravens flying around carrying far too many mesgs and being warged "possessed" and talking all over the frellin place ... maester's incoherent lil babbling is POINTLESS! Its just a waste of valuable page space and is extremely not needed in a book this far in a series

Its the ultimate troll move (setting us all on a crazy path of double-guessing if so-and-so bird will now be Bloodraven or Bran controlled to fly to specific areas on demand and whatnot)

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The editors better get on the damn raven thing and fix it!! Seriously, the birds are one-way?!? So all the bazillion letters sent flyin around for previous 5 books were just... random location roulette?!? Do they have lil destination labels permanently tied to their lil legs while they're in the cages? (unless the maester is just trollin' Stannis. That would make more sense, but probably not in that content)

Westeros - y u no invent pony express

I assumed that the maester meant they flew to one place, round trip. That way, the raven could deliver the message, then the same raven could be sent back with an answer, or kept by the maester until another message needed to be sent to the raven's home base. Of course, I don't know if my interpretation is correct, my little mind just felt the need to fill in the blanks.

And yeah, I wondered why there was no other delivery system in place, for merchants, for example, or for lords who wanted to bypass the maesters, because everyone seems to know they are not really neutral.

[Lord Godric]

I know its the internet and all, but I'm not that dumb. I know its a pigeons reference twisted up

However, the specific information about the ravens still needs editing. After chapters upon chapters of ravens flying around carrying far too many mesgs and being warged "possessed" and talking all over the frellin place ... maester's incoherent lil babbling is POINTLESS! Its just a waste of valuable page space and is extremely not needed in a book this far in a series

Its the ultimate troll move (setting us all on a crazy path of double-guessing if so-and-so bird will now be Bloodraven or Bran controlled to fly to specific areas on demand and whatnot)

I actually think the whole point of the little bit was to show that there was definite proof that the Karstarks were communicating with the Boltons and could not be communicating with anyone else. Sure, it's a probably a pointless piece of information for many here, but it's not something that needs to upset anyone.

[Ran]

There's no problem with ravens going one way, as such. It's just that we see no sign of the massive transportation logistics that would be needed to really make that work. Yoren carrying a couple of cages of ravens up to Castle Black is pretty much the sole example we have of anyone carrying ravens with that sort of logistical purpose in mind.

It'd have been much tidier if all ravens learned two locations, that way they'd be a semi-permanent (until they died or got lost or what have you) communication link between two areas, and you wouldn't need anyone to carry them anywhere. But... sure, one way birds is doable, and were in fact done, since carrier pigeons were used in various areas historically, and they just went the one way.

I think it's a stretch to suppose the maester meant they could manage a round trip, but who knows.

It's definitely nothing to be upset about, in any case... and I, for one, actually am glad someone clarified that point. The maester's babbling because he's hoping his statement of there being birds that go to several locations might get him off the hook with Stannis. It's just of a piece with his characterization.

Also, yes, sometimes messages are carried by couriers and not by ravens. Not all communications are by raven.

[The Human Abstract]

I think I stand alone here in that I'm not particularly concerned about the ravens one way or the other.

[George Snow]

I assumed that the maester meant they flew to one place, round trip. That way, the raven could deliver the message, then the same raven could be sent back with an answer, or kept by the maester until another message needed to be sent to the raven's home base. Of course, I don't know if my interpretation is correct, my little mind just felt the need to fill in the blanks.

I think that if you have a smart raven, and you are constantly sending it back to a certain place for it to fly to its home, then it could learn the "second home".

As far as Sam earning a chain in ravens, it's very possible that he already has the knowledge to take the test and pass it, and they'll consider the time that he was Aemon's steward to be an apprenticeship. That way he can skip forward to learning more interesting things. Also, it would seem that part of his purpose is to inform the Citadel about what is going on at the wall, and how to kill, Others.

And also Sam knows about Arya (but I don't think he knows who she is), and it's possible that he will inform "Pate" about her.

GH

[Gianetta]

The editors better get on the damn raven thing and fix it!! Seriously, the birds are one-way?!? So all the bazillion letters sent flyin around for previous 5 books were just... random location roulette?!? Do they have lil destination labels permanently tied to their lil legs while they're in the cages? (unless the maester is just trollin' Stannis. That would make more sense, but probably not in that content)

Westeros - y u no invent pony express

Wow. In the words of the brilliant Neil Gaiman, GRRM is not our b1tch. Don't like the ravens? Write your own book.

[slayer420]

I don't think that GRRM has really thought through the one-way raven thing though. It would mean that someone would have to cage a raven shortly after getting it and have it carried back to the castle in which is came. It would make much more sense for ravens to be able to fly between two different places. It must also mean that each castle has a large number of ravens that will specifically travel to one castle because the time between sending the letter and getting the raven back has to be very, very long.

I think this would be solved by having raven hubs. IF you had lets say over a period of time 10 of your ravens come back if you lived in the North you would send them to Winterfell. Then when someone lets say needed ravens to go to wall they could get them at Winterfell. The same with KL. Also you could send all mail going south to KL lets say and they could send a messige to where in needed to go in the south. Kind of like what we do with are mail today.

[Iron Captain]

"Most, yes. Some few can be taught to fly between two castles. Such birds are greatly prized. And once in a very great while, we find a raven who can learn the names of three or four or five castles, and fly to each upon command. Birds as clever as that come along only once in a hundred years."

So many people are getting incredibly upset over this. I agree it would make things complicated to have to return a raven to its original location after each trip, but what's the big deal if this is done off page.

[The Human Abstract]

I am really enjoying this thread now. I haven't had a grin this big in awhile.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think that the supposed hate, by the northmen, for Stannis is overstated in this thread (or the last one, anyway).

In one of my posts I wrote that the northern lords didn't give a rat's ass about Stannis, or something to that effect. I didn't mean to say that they hated him, only that they had their own reasons for joining him, and that his attempt to gain the iron throne wasn't their first priority. And I think Stannis' grousing about "their precious Ned" shows that he is completely aware of their priorities. If Stannis somehow manages to resolve this current crisis and turn his attention south again, I do not believe many northern lords will follow him. To start with, most of them are still recovering from Robb's southern campaign, and others, like the hill clans, seem to have no interest in the south or the iron throne.

[Chise]

Wow. In the words of the brilliant Neil Gaiman, GRRM is not our b1tch. Don't like the ravens? Write your own book.

Yeah! I'm gonna totally do that then, with robots and with blackjack and hookers! :dunno:

I still remain of the opinion GRRM needs a better editor by the time the book actually comes out

[Jory]

Who cares about the stupid ravens

[Pliskin]

I think I stand alone here in that I'm not particularly concerned about the ravens one way or the other.

+1

I always thought the ravens were just the ASOIAF equivalent of our real medieval life's pigeons. So I really don't understand the whole overall excitation about this paragraph of the sample.

Who cares about the stupid ravens

Well, we could care. But only when it's Bran or BR talking through them.