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The Iron Bank and the mockingbird


SpaceChampion

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A bunch of posts in this topic go with GRRM wouldn't do this if it couldn't happen. Well, yeah, of course, he can do and invent whatever he wants-it is fiction after all. That doesn't mean that it will be consistent with the world he has invented and revealed to this point or have what appears to be realistic humun motivation. One of his big selling points when he started this series was realism in a fantasy world, but he has fallen short of that goal several times throughtout the series. If this one happens, it will be his biggest slip to date.

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The discussion of Littlefinger not being a friend of the Iron Bank mixed with the comments that the Faceless Men at least likely have some relationship with the Iron Bank brings up an interesting idea...

If the Iron Bank were to send an FM to Littlefinger... What if it were Arya? And she ran into Sansa? Interesting possibilities?

I would love to see Arya's meeting with Sansa, but I doubt it will happen this way. Why would the Iron Bank suddenly want Littlefinger's head!? There is no reason to believe he has any debts, I'm actually wondering where he keeps his money. Think about it: he was the Master of Coin for years, with opportunities this position gives, his own talents and a very profitable business in King's Landing he should now have a fortune. His ambitions will surely demand serious investments at some point and it's hard to believe that a man who has made such a career making money for others hasn't been able to make himself rich. So where is Littlefinger's money? ;)

As for the Iron Bank, I think a close connection with the FM is the only logical explanation of their reputation. Any institution that keeps financing wars to get its money back will soon go bankrupt, even in a fantasy world. Unless there is something that lets the IB win... always. I think we will soon see a series of mysterious accidents, the FM style.

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I would love to see Arya's meeting with Sansa, but I doubt it will happen this way. Why would the Iron Bank suddenly want Littlefinger's head!? There is no reason to believe he has any debts, I'm actually wondering where he keeps his money. Think about it: he was the Master of Coin for years, with opportunities this position gives, his own talents and a very profitable business in King's Landing he should now have a fortune. His ambitions will surely demand serious investments at some point and it's hard to believe that a man who has made such a career making money for others hasn't been able to make himself rich. So where is Littlefinger's money? ;)

As for the Iron Bank, I think a close connection with the FM is the only logical explanation of their reputation. Any institution that keeps financing wars to get its money back will soon go bankrupt, even in a fantasy world. Unless there is something that lets the IB win... always. I think we will soon see a series of mysterious accidents, the FM style.

Not sure the Rothschilds would agree with you.They certainly made megabucks from the Napoleonic wars and probably the Boer Wars,the American Civil War and WW1 and maybe 2 as well via front banks.

ETA- The Rothschilds were operating in a more recent,sophisticated era than the feudal one depicted in Westeros.So making money from war might not be so easy.

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Not sure the Rothschilds would agree with you.They certainly made megabucks from the Napoleonic wars and probably the Boer Wars,the American Civil War and WW1 and maybe 2 as well via front banks.

All right. You are right. :D

ETA- The Rothschilds were operating in a more recent,sophisticated era than the feudal one depicted in Westeros.So making money from war might not be so easy.

But this is true too.

And the Iron Bank is not exactly trying to make money from war. They are believed to engineer wars just to get their money back. It does seem suicidal... And yet they win. Apparently always.

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  • 2 months later...

They, I think, just go for the most honorable King of Westeros... and right now, it's Stannis... Cersei turned them down. Euron is just a pirate. Aegon didnt make his claim at the time.

Which leaves only Stannis. Normal they went to him.

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If there are enough mercanary companies for him to hire to win the Iron throne against 100,000 enemies that show up, I am not going to think, hey nice to see stannis a contender again-all I am going to be thinking is bullshit. It isn't a matter of if he is the best candidate, it is a matter of how could that even be possible.

I don't see how you can read the same books I am and come to the conclusion that, because there are a 100,000 men under arms in the south, Stannis will have to beat an army of 100,000 men. Loyalties get chopped and changed on an almost daily basis and one thing I've learned is that Power, in Martin's books, never resides where you think it does. The south is a house of cards at the moment, one little gust and the blood will be flowing freely again. Given the fact that the Iron Bank are the biggest financial institution in the world, potentially with agents in every major house, it seems to me like they could be the most well informed people in the world. If Stannis beats Bolton and secures himself the support of a united North, he would be a fairly major player again. I find it entirely plausible that the IB would be willing to take a punt on him for any or all of the reasons other people on this thread have already discussed.

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Although its risky for the IB to invest in Stannis' cause, they have a VERY well known reputation that must be maintained. If it gets out that ppl can default on loans and nothing will come of it... well ppl will start defaulting on their loans. And I can imagine the IB has alot more loans out there than just the ones to Westeros and the Iron Throne. Besides they have to realize that IF Stannis wins, he probably wont pay the Lannisters their 3 million Golden Dragons. In fact he will probably loot the shit out of the Lannisters and use their money to pay back the other debts.

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Besides they have to realize that IF Stannis wins, he probably wont pay the Lannisters their 3 million Golden Dragons. In fact he will probably loot the shit out of the Lannisters and use their money to pay back the other debts.

I have been thinking in the Lannister Debt, considering the actual possible candidates for the Iron Throne.. Dany, Aegon, Stanis, Euron, LF , or Jon (very unlikely) looks like that debt is never getting paid.

Perhaps if Tommen or Myrcella holds the Iron Throne.. but that's almost impossible.

I guess the Lannister wont be the richest at the end of the series.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I like the theory that Littlefinger has a hand in what goes on at the Iron Bank. It would explain how he seems to find so much gold out of nowhere and it would give him yet another tool to manipulate people indirectly into following him.

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  • 1 month later...

Here's a theory: Littlefinger is in league with Varys, and bankrupted the Iron Throne intentionally to help Varys' claimant, Aegon, gain more support. Aegon may not be willing to pay off the debts made by the Baratheon/Lannister regime, but he would likely be more prudent to deal with in future situations. This supports the whole idea of ousting the indebted ruler in favour of someone else.

It also figures in with what LF is doing with Sansa: currently, she is the sole claimant to the North (everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead, Arya as well, and she's younger anyway), he is setting her up as heir to the Vale, and if Edmure dies, the Riverlands pass to her as well. If everything works out, Sansa controls three of the seven kingdoms, from the North, down.

I definitely don't think that Littlefinger is in league with Varys, to me they seem to respect each other but also hate each other as they each see the other as a powerful but unpredictable opposing player. About Sansa (sorry if I go too far of topic), I've had these thoughts myself but she has no chance of getting the Rivelands. Edmure doesn't have them anymore,they belong to the Freys, and even if he did I think she'd only be his heir after his child and possible the Blackfish (who I know is a fugitive, but in that scenario Riverrun isn't Edmure's anyway so...). Personally, I think that Littlefinger's plans concerning Sansa are to marry her to Harry the Heir (after waiting long enough so that no-one will think Tyrion could be the father to any child produced), organise for Robert to die so that the lords of The Vale have some time to grow accustomed to her rule (alongside Harry), before then killing Harry once she is pregnant by him (so she has a solid hold on The Eyrie). Of course, for any of this to be advantageous to him I think he will then need to marry Sansa so that the position of power he has put her in becomes his (plus, let's be honest, he wants her bad). Though external events may prevent this from happening and I believe that as Littlefinger teaches Sansa more about being a player she will become harder for him to manipulate (though she may keep him convinced that she's his piece) and there is always the theory that she'll kill him, which I think would have an irony fitting of GRRM - just as Littlefinger's years of scheming are about to pay off and give him more actual power than ever his 'piece' kills him. That would fit in with what he told Sansa, about how some pieces need to think they're players to be used. If she realised his plans and let him put her in power before killing him, that would just be fucking awesome.

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I'm not saying that GRRM can't reinvent his world and show areas that he never has before, but I find it incredibly annoying when authors do that late in the game. From what has been revealed of the world, it is silly and changing or adding to the world to make it seem realistic isn't going to be any better in my eyes. Like my first post in this thread said, I wish he hadn't pursued this, and I hope nothing ever comes of it since he did in an unpublished chapter. There were plenty of ways to make Stannis a contender again without just giving him the buy the impossible approach. Nor do I want to sit around really for the time this scheme would actually take to pan out.

I don't see how GRRM has reinvented his world by having the IB loan Stannis money and back his claim. The IB have been present since the first book (even if they were only talked about) and this course of action taken by them is the only logical one and actually makes sense within the world he had already established, based on how he has developed their reputation and shown the history of their past behaviour. That is not reinvention, it is the exact opposite. Also, the financial backing isn't what made Stannis a serious contender for the throne again, it was John's strategic help in rallying The North and the fact that once he defeats the Boltons at Winterfell (which, despite being difficult, seems inevitable) the rest of the northern lords will follow. The IB just provides Stannis with the funds to do all those things Jon mentioned in his POV, drastically increasing his chances in the long-run but not what makes him a contender now.

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As for the Iron Bank, I think a close connection with the FM is the only logical explanation of their reputation. Any institution that keeps financing wars to get its money back will soon go bankrupt, even in a fantasy world. Unless there is something that lets the IB win... always. I think we will soon see a series of mysterious accidents, the FM style.

Yeah, to me the idea that the FM and the IB are a joint organisation or at least work closely together seems very unlikely; but, completely contradictory to that, I agree that it's the only logical explanation that at the very least they have a special arrangement - since John's POV revealed that princes who don't pay their debts suffer mysterious deaths (or something along those lines) and the FM's usual fee is 2/3 of all personal wealth but there is no way the IB could continuously pay that and stay in business. I also like the idea that this will have Arya sent back to Westeros by / with the FM. Even though she is only on her first apprenticeship she has knowledge of The North and Kings Landing so they may decide it would be worth sending her anyway. They disapprove of her retaining an 'identity' but she may become a good enough liar to convince them she truly is no-one; whether or not this is the case, she will always be Arya so long as Nymeria is alive, and I don't think that will change soon so she will probably leave FM once she is back in Westeros.

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  • 3 months later...

Is it possible that the Iron Bank are financing Stannis (as well as other "better" prospects for Kingship) precisely because Stannis is their "loser's bet"? If they are indeed recruiting Braavosi sellswords, the loan could even be a ruse to assassinate Stannis (and/or other northern Lords) once the time's right.

And, if things go well for Stannis, then they have a backup. Wouldn't it be interesting if they sent thousands of veteran Unsullied... who are of course loyal - absolutely loyal - to only one master (i.e. not Stannis, the North, nor the Realm, etc). Danaerys only took a small fraction of fresh Unsullied; many more are available along with some of the finest Braavosi sellswords.

I always found it interesting that Braavos doesn't seem to have an explicit ruling dynasty. No idea of course on this either, but my hunch tells me that the real power is the Iron Bank itself, and they created the "nation" of Braavos to appear like a true nation state, like Dorne, the Seven Kingdoms, Pentos, etc. They have money, they buy armies, no-one f**ks with them. Oh, and they have an elite, underground ninja militia hit-squad just in case they need to tip the balance of power in their favour... :D

Sorry in advance as I know this is pulling stuff from my butt, but what do you all think of this? What do we really know (i.e. just the plain written facts minus dubious slanted testimony) about the Iron Bank?

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  • 3 weeks later...

I don't think LF is operating in tandem with, or even with the indulgence of the IB . He's intent on creating chaos . Their interest lies in maintaining order..because order is in Braavos' best interest since its economy is dependent on trade.

The Sealord is "chosen" on the death of his predecessor but we don't know by whom,and though we're told that then the knives will come out , we don't know if that's figuratively or literally ( or both ). I'm sort of feeling like the IB, the FM , and the Sealord form an interdependent triumverate , with the Sealord being the public political face.

It's easy to assume that the FM might take out a troublesome ruler ( I thought so at first ) but that comes from Jon's musings on meeting Tycho . Actually, what he thinks is, how a ruler who defaults on the IB quickly finds a rival will rise up to supplant him. (IB supporting a rival claim rather than direct assassination , which in itself might not solve the problem.)

OTOH , we know the FM are used for intelligence gathering , not only assassinations , and the IB seems very well informed, so I'm sure a connection exists.

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The Kindly Man's interest in the present Sealord's health might be a sign that the elite in Braavos believe him to have committed treason against their cause and interests. One possibility would be that he eventually became caught up in the Varys-Illyrio grand plan and had ambitions to eventually more directly solidify his own control over the city with outside help. If other members of the political system discovered evidence of this in some fashion, he would be viewed as a traitor aligned with conspirators in Pentos, as well as possibly being a sell-out planning to work with a Targaryen that now has dragons. A poisoning might then have been selected as the means by which to dispose of him discretely, while trying to take actions (like backing Stannis and researching means to address the dragons) to undo the perceived damage he caused.

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The Kindly Man's interest in the present Sealord's health might be a sign that the elite in Braavos believe him to have committed treason against their cause and interests. One possibility would be that he eventually became caught up in the Varys-Illyrio grand plan and had ambitions to eventually more directly solidify his own control over the city with outside help. If other members of the political system discovered evidence of this in some fashion, he would be viewed as a traitor aligned with conspirators in Pentos, as well as possibly being a sell-out planning to work with a Targaryen that now has dragons. A poisoning might then have been selected as the means by which to dispose of him discretely, while trying to take actions (like backing Stannis and researching means to address the dragons) to undo the perceived damage he caused.

Now that is an interesting thought. Something like the marriage contract with the Martells surfacing might be a nail in his coffin.
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