Communist Wildlings

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

I have been quite intrigued and fascinated with the wildlings. I really like their approach to life and organization. Most of all, I really appreciate Martin's talent to change our perspective over a story by telling it from the points of views of both sides.

Have anyone thought of how much the wildlings are an analogy to communism? A free folk, with no private property or classes...

And in the same way the wall might come as the Berlin wall, trying desperately to keep these two worlds apart.

There's this very nice passage of Ygritte saying:

"The gods made the earth for all men t' share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was theirs. My trees, they said, you can't eat them apples. My stream, you can't fish here. My wood, you're not t' hunt. My earth, my water, my castle, my daughter, keep your hands away or I'll chop 'em off, but maybe you kneel t' me I'll let you have a sniff."

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I don't want to search the whole forum and end-up reading spoilers...

[zmflavius]

Perhaps, but communism really means ownership of the means of production by the proletariat. While having the free folk take take the trees, the streams, the wood, the earth, the water,and debateably, the daughters, would mean as much, I think the Free Folk would also object to the centralized government that seizure of the means of production would imply, preferring some kind of anarchy.

[Stannis the Great]

The Wildlings are the opposite of communists. They're much closer to anarchism or even libertarianmism.

[Blangadanger]

The Wildlings do have a similar ideology of a small commune, where people share all goods and there isn't much hierarchy among the community, but I wouldn't use the word Communism, because that implies a centralized government, which Mance Rayder would most certainly oppose. The opposite of Communism is Fascism (private ownership of everything, but with authoritative military rule), which is further from what the Wildlings proclaim to value.

The truth is they are barbarians, and their lack of government is just that: unfocused, always fluid, and primarily driven by individuals of great power and/or knowledge (i.e. Mance Rayder). I think one could argue that the Wildlings' story is similar to that of Robin Hood's Sherwood Forest rebels, who also seeked freedom in a time of heavy taxation and noble control.

[Der Anarch]

What the Free Folk reject is not private property, it's the rule of law. They believe they have a right to take anything they want by brute strength, and don't understand the legalistic objections raised by the Kneelers. Of course, the Kneelers society is also based on brute strength as well, only it has been sublimated into an ideology of chivalry and aristocracy. The Free Folk are simply what the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons used to be.

Marx once addressed this issue of noble barbarians in a short letter named the 'Defence of Progressive Imperialism in Algeria'. "All these nations of free barbarians look very proud, noble, and glorious at a distance, but only come come nearer and you will find that they, as well as the more civilised nations, are ruled by lust of gain, and only employ ruder and more cruel methods."

The real parallel here of course is not Communism but traditional Irish Law, which was anarchistic in many elements and lacked the same respect for privately owned land that was enforced upon the English by the Normans, Saxons and Romans.

The opposite of Communism is Fascism (private ownership of everything, but with authoritative military rule)

That's one of the silliest definitions of Fascism I've read recently. It reminds me to get on with my essay, which addresses just this misconception.

[Faceless Sam]

it is, at least, not a very useful definitio n of fascism.

as to the question whether the wildlings are communists: not even in the broadest sense of the word.

they do not share, they just lack a conception of private property.

[SI Monster]

The Wildlings are the opposite of communists. They're much closer to anarchism or even libertarianmism.

I think they lean closer to libertarianisim to anarchism. Even though they do not practice ownership or follow a traditional fuedal system save for the Thenns, the to have a simplified form of government. In some ways, their rule through best fit as opposed to birth makes more sense than all the mess that surrounds the Iron Throne.

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

For sure I didn't mean that they were actual communists! The book is a mirror of our Feudal Era, while communism is an ideal that came much later, and to be applied as a concept would require a number of associated concepts that have no place in the book's scenario.

I guess what I meant is that the wildlings, while having some communism ideals, remind me of the fear that communists represented to the capitalist society in the cold war... The way they were described as this evil force that aims to ruin our most sacred principles of private property.

I have to say that reading through aSoS (I'm almost finishing) I was a bit disappointed with the way Snow found so easy to fight the wildlings - including the woman that he loved. I expected a bit of conflict is his head, after having lived with the wildlings and experienced how close their life styles actually were, from what he had always heard! I thought it was a bit one-dimentional! He found it very easy in the end to just go back to the wall and kill wildlings, as if that was a matter of life or death to defend the realm!

For me the wall agains the Others is justified. Against the wildlings is just political bullshit!

[Catastrophe]

The Wildlings do have a similar ideology of a small commune, where people share all goods and there isn't much hierarchy among the community, but I wouldn't use the word Communism, because that implies a centralized government, which Mance Rayder would most certainly oppose. The opposite of Communism is Fascism (private ownership of everything, but with authoritative military rule), which is further from what the Wildlings proclaim to value.

The truth is they are barbarians, and their lack of government is just that: unfocused, always fluid, and primarily driven by individuals of great power and/or knowledge (i.e. Mance Rayder). I think one could argue that the Wildlings' story is similar to that of Robin Hood's Sherwood Forest rebels, who also seeked freedom in a time of heavy taxation and noble control.

Actually, Fascism is more perpendicular to Communism than opposite it. The "authoritative military rule" you describe is an element that Communism has in common with it, so it's hardly the opposite of Communist ideology. Fascism also has nothing to do with "private ownership of everything," and in fact most Fascist nations often nationalized private property, even if it wasn't to the same extent that Communist nations did. The true opposite of Communism would be Anarcho-Capitalism.

As for what the Wildlings would be classified as, I think their society is too simple for modern ideological terms to apply to them. They're not only pre-industrial but apparently pre-agricultural, without the infrastructure that even a primitive Feudal society would have. From what I can tell, they're just basic hunter-gatherers.

For sure I didn't mean that they were actual communists! The book is a mirror of our Feudal Era, while communism is an ideal that came much later, and to be applied as a concept would require a number of associated concepts that have no place in the book's scenario.

I guess what I meant is that the wildlings, while having some communism ideals, remind me of the fear that communists represented to the capitalist society in the cold war... The way they were described as this evil force that aims to ruin our most sacred principles of private property.

I have to say that reading through aSoS (I'm almost finishing) I was a bit disappointed with the way Snow found so easy to fight the wildlings - including the woman that he loved. I expected a bit of conflict is his head, after having lived with the wildlings and experienced how close their life styles actually were, from what he had always heard! I thought it was a bit one-dimentional! He found it very easy in the end to just go back to the wall and kill wildlings, as if that was a matter of life or death to defend the realm!

For me the wall agains the Others is justified. Against the wildlings is just political bullshit!

It doesn't work as a metaphor either, though. The Wildlings aren't seen as some great corrupting force by most Westerosi, they're seen as primitive nuisances. No one outside of the Night's Watch is really concerned with them, they aren't really thought of as a serious threat. Even the Night's Watch wasn't especially afraid of them until recently, when Mance Rayder assembled his ten thousand man army and actively launched a campaign to take over or bring down the Wall.

As for Jon, he doesn't want to kill all the Wildlings, he just wants to defend the Wall. It's not like the Night's Watch actively go around trying to murder all the Wildlings they could find; the Wildlings are the aggressors here. Up until recently there were Wildlings living in all those villages north of the Wall and the Night's Watch never bothered them unless they tried to go south. It's not because of "political bullshit" either, it's because the Wildlings who do bypass the Wall generally end up raping and pillaging Westerosi villages. It's completely understandable why the Night's Watch would want to keep them out in order to protect the realm.

However, I do agree that the Others are clearly the greater danger here. Keep reading, I think you'll like how things ultimately end up turning out.

[The GRRumbler]

I believe the closer metaphor to compare the wildlings with would be what Marx called "primitive socialism" (i read it in Portuguese so im translating directly here, don't know what is the correct expression that was translated to the English), that would be pre-historic comunnities of hunter-gatherers with no centralized ruling nor the idea of property.

[Der Anarch]

(i read it in Portuguese so im translating directly here, don't know what is the correct expression that was translated to the English),

"Primitive Communism"

[Maester Joergensen]

Actually, Fascism is more perpendicular to Communism than opposite it. The "authoritative military rule" you describe is an element that Communism has in common with it, so it´s hardly the opposite of Communist ideology.

That is simply not true. The soviet union did end up having "authorative military rule", but that does not mean that it is inherently a part of the communist ideology, The soviet union was just a failed attempt at a communist state, and communism as and ideology should not be judged by the soviet union. The military rule was meant to be a transitionary period while control of the country was consolidated after the overthrow of the zsars rule, but the communist leaders just ended up being corrupted by power, and the military rule was never abandoned, and it in practice ended up as a fascist state. Which I perhaps why you draw parallels betwen communism and fascism?

[trueWaif]

I like to think of the Wildlings as a vague comment on Americanism. A brash sense of individualism, rebels, ect, ect... It's not a very fleshed out idea but I like it. The Wildlings in general seem more modern what with their sense of self and rejection of formal leaders and caste systems. Modern and unrefined, as American's are often portrayed ("Ugly American"). I just think it's an interesting concept.

[Der Anarch]

<p>

<br />

I like to think of the Wildlings as a vague comment on Americanism.&nbsp;&nbsp;A brash sense of individualism, rebels, ect, ect...&nbsp;&nbsp;It&#39;s not a very fleshed out idea but I like it.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Wildlings in general seem more modern what with their sense of self and rejection of formal leaders and caste systems.&nbsp;&nbsp;Modern and unrefined, as American&#39;s are often portrayed (&quot;Ugly American&quot;).&nbsp;&nbsp;I just think it&#39;s an interesting concept.<br />

Everything is about America in the end, isn't it? It's not as if they could be, say, a representation of Europe's Pre-Feudal past?

Americans in a ASoIaF would be more like a load of pompous merchants, hedge knights, exiles, religious fundamentalists and semi-criminals who set themselves up on another continent and proceeded to create a society completely unlike that of the Wildlings, with strict enforcement of property rights, elitist pseudo-Classical Republicanism, mercantile ethics and many, many slaves.

[The GRRumbler]

<p></p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p><em>Everything</em> is about America in the end, isn&#39;t it? It&#39;s not as if they could be, say, a representation of Europe&#39;s pre-feudal past?&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>Americans in a ASoIaF would be more like a load of pompous merchants, hedge knights, exiles, religious fundamentalists and semi-criminals who set themselves up on another continent and proceeded to create a society completely unlike that of the Wildlings, with strict enforcement of property rights, elitist pseudo-Classical Republicanism, mercantile ethics and many, many slaves.</p>

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LOL :lmao:

I really dont think america is represented anywhere in these books.

[SI Monster]

For sure I didn't mean that they were actual communists! The book is a mirror of our Feudal Era, while communism is an ideal that came much later, and to be applied as a concept would require a number of associated concepts that have no place in the book's scenario.

I guess what I meant is that the wildlings, while having some communism ideals, remind me of the fear that communists represented to the capitalist society in the cold war... The way they were described as this evil force that aims to ruin our most sacred principles of private property.

I have to say that reading through aSoS (I'm almost finishing) I was a bit disappointed with the way Snow found so easy to fight the wildlings - including the woman that he loved. I expected a bit of conflict is his head, after having lived with the wildlings and experienced how close their life styles actually were, from what he had always heard! I thought it was a bit one-dimentional! He found it very easy in the end to just go back to the wall and kill wildlings, as if that was a matter of life or death to defend the realm!

For me the wall agains the Others is justified. Against the wildlings is just political bullshit!

I agree with you on most points, except for the political lable of communisim. It is a case of difference of opinion turning into an all out fist fight.

As far as the direction of war against the Wildlings and the Watch, at the time of the novels, the Night's Watch has kind of lost its way along with its luster. Since there have been no 'supernatural threats' in so long, they have lost thier initial mission statment when it came down to protection of the realm. Sun Tsu once said that governments need enemies, so the Wildlings took the place of Others over the years. And people wonder why I'd rather talk about porn than politics.

[Fryie]

I find it difficult to apply such terms such as Communism to a society that is ethnologically so different from ours.

Somebody said Wildlings are hunter-gatherers. But don't they have cattle? I might misremember, though.

Most probably, though, "Wildlings" is just a very meaningless cover term for whatever folks live north of the Wall, from Hornfoot men to Thenns.

[LuisDantas]

That is simply not true. The soviet union did end up having "authorative military rule", but that does not mean that it is inherently a part of the communist ideology, The soviet union was just a failed attempt at a communist state, and communism as and ideology should not be judged by the soviet union. The military rule was meant to be a transitionary period while control of the country was consolidated after the overthrow of the zsars rule, but the communist leaders just ended up being corrupted by power, and the military rule was never abandoned, and it in practice ended up as a fascist state. Which I perhaps why you draw parallels betwen communism and fascism?

I don't know what exactly Catastrophe thinks, but in so far as Communism and Fascism being perpendicular instead of opposites, united by a strong need of authoritarianism, I happen to agree with her.

Of course, no authoritarian regime claims to want to be authoritarian. But both Fascism and Communism have such a strong and urgent need of going against the grain of basic human nature that they can't help but be authoritarian if they want to exist at all.

Sure, it also means that they end up failing. But to the extent that they do exist, they need to be authoritative and centralized to express their goals. Their significant differences are nearly all about how the economy and property should be handled, not on political power itself.

The wildlings, however, are not sophisticated enough to even be communists. Nor do they have enough tolerance for central authority to approach it, either. Their culture does indeed seem to be pre-agricultural, based on hunting and gathering. A very free model of society, but also one that offers precious little in the way of possibilities.

[HyacinthGirl]

I don't think the wildilngs are communists, but I just wanted an excuse to use this emoticon:

:commie:

Haha, red army...

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: