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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3


Angalin

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Is there anywhere in the text concrete evidence that the former letters were written by Ramsay himself? Can Ramsay write? We know that when his mother presented Ramsay to Roose as his son and asked for support Roose gave him Reek (the first one, who smelled afwul even when he washed). But did Roose arrange for any education for Ramsay?

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Asha thinks about the brown ink and spiky hand when she receives her letter from Ramsay Bolton containing a piece of prince.

Jon too, in the first letter he gets from Ramsay in ADwD. The damned stupid iBooks app froze, but I read that first letter from Ramsay to Jon today, and there's the same observation about it being 'huge and spiky', iirc.

@FanTasy, I assume Ramsay did learn to read and write at some point, but poorly; hence the 'huge and spiky' hand...

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Just read this chapter today! I enjoyed reading Stannis's BA lines of dialog.

Three things I took away from it:

Euron's "smiling" eye is black somehow...

a black eye shining with malice

Bran totally spoke to Theon in the weirwood in ADWD and was doing so again in this chapter.

Biggest of all:

Its now possible that Ramsay wasn't lying. If they killed Theon in the weirwood (or whatever), then its quite possible Ramsay is telling the truth.

I hope he isn't. Just when I was starting to like Stannis...

Also, for some reason I wondered if Theon could end up becoming Bran's undead helper, the dead guy Dany saw sailing a ship. After all, "what is dead can never die, but rises, stronger and harder."

Anyway, that was an amazingly fun chapter to read.

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Jon too, in the first letter he gets from Ramsay in ADwD. The damned stupid iBooks app froze, but I read that first letter from Ramsay to Jon today, and there's the same observation about it being 'huge and spiky', iirc.

@FanTasy, I assume Ramsay did learn to read and write at some point, but poorly; hence the 'huge and spiky' hand...

Yeah, Ramsay can read and write. In A Clash of Kings, Theon remarks with some surprise and suspicion at how "Reek" can read and write.

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Just read this chapter today! I enjoyed reading Stannis's BA lines of dialog.

Three things I took away from it:

Euron's "smiling" eye is black somehow...

Bran totally spoke to Theon in the weirwood in ADWD and was doing so again in this chapter.

Biggest of all:

Its now possible that Ramsay wasn't lying. If they killed Theon in the weirwood (or whatever), then its quite possible Ramsay is telling the truth.

I hope he isn't. Just when I was starting to like Stannis...

Also, for some reason I wondered if Theon could end up becoming Bran's undead helper, the dead guy Dany saw sailing a ship. After all, "what is dead can never die, but rises, stronger and harder."

Anyway, that was an amazingly fun chapter to read.

I have been meaning to start a re-read of all the books and pay more attention to Dany's PoV when she was in that House of the Undying. Was that where you remember reading about the dead guy sailing a ship?

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Yeah, Ramsay can read and write. In A Clash of Kings, Theon remarks with some surprise and suspicion at how "Reek" can read and write.

Okay, I missed that. Thank you for clearing that up!

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I have been meaning to start a re-read of all the books and pay more attention to Dany's PoV when she was in that House of the Undying. Was that where you remember reading about the dead guy sailing a ship?

ehh?? I don't recall anything of ships in that place. She sees naked woman with midgets, a dead king with wolf's head at a table, the "red door", has a vision of thousands of bloodied slaves reaching for her and calling out "Mother...." but no ships

Moqorro had a vision of shadows, one big twisted one-eyed figure sailing a sea of blood.. Is that what you're thinking of perhaps?

EDIT: and after reading that other post below mine, wow.. can't believe forgot that entire bit! ...time for reread!

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Alguien, where did you read about a dead guy that Dany saw sailing a ship? (After all, "what is dead can never die, but rises, stronger and harder.")

Not Alguien, but in the House of the Undying: Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

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Alguien, where did you read about a dead guy that Dany saw sailing a ship? (After all, "what is dead can never die, but rises, stronger and harder.")

Clash of kings. My version says page 437, but I don't know how that corresponds to the paper copy, which I don't have handy.

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I hate Theon Greyjoy for releasing Ramsay on the North, and for destroying Winterfell. Maester Luwin was one of my favorites and he never harmed anyone, Old Nan I loved her too, and all the other poor small folk, God damn it the Millers Boys F**K YOU THEON!!

Reading all those Theon chapters was complete torture in ADWD, i really want him to die. I don't care how burn him or do it the old way as long as he is dead i will be satisfied.

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Clash of kings. My version says page 437, but I don't know how that corresponds to the paper copy, which I don't have handy.

My paperback copy of ACoK's page 437 is a Bran PoV where Jojen tells him that he is the winged wolf in his green dream.

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Before reading the Theon chapter, my thoughts were that Bowen Marsh had written the letter. He hated Jon and wanted him dead. Marsh became friends with Janos Slynt, who had been manuevered to be sent to the Wall by Cersei for a plot to kill Jon. So, I assumed the letter was part of this plot.

Bowen Marsh didn't hate Jon (his stabbing of Jon is reluctant at best, he has tears in his eyes, and probably ( possible wishful thinking on my part, I'll give you that), he now considers himself a 'kinslayer' as well. Oh, and there's also the 'hierarchical guilty' as he kills his LC.

Also, Marsh has never befriended Slyntos, iirc; that was Alliser Thorne, who's gone ranging and is MIA at the mo.

I think... Could all be bollox.

:-)

In ADwD, Tormund says, "Might be all a skin o' lies." (referring to the letter/scroll) and in the first paragraph of the letter the writer instructs Jon to go to Melisandre, "Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore." Which leads me to wonder that if Jon had gone to Melisandre first, would she have told Jon that the letter was a fake?

Could be, but Mel's fire-reading abilities are unreliable, at best, no?

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My paperback copy of ACoK's page 437 is a Bran PoV where Jojen tells him that he is the winged wolf in his green dream.

ACoK page 706 (paperback) are final "phantoms" that Dany sees in the House of the Undying, including the corpse at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face...

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Not Alguien, but in the House of the Undying: Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

Yeah, that's the bit I was thinking of. Could be referring to anything though. But it really does seem like Bran has an interest in Theon for some reason. Maybe we'll get to see a bit of CotF resurrection magic. Maybe someone who's blood has fed a heartree can be brought back...?

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Janos Slynt was known to be corrupted, accepting bribes, and was rewarded for his betrayal of Ned Stark. He was awarded Lordship of Harrenhal for the betrayal and was sitting on the small council when Tyrion arrived. Tyrion stripped him of Harrenhal and sent him to the Wall because of his part in the murder of Robert's bastard, but I believe that Tyrion was unknowingly a part of a Littlefinger plot as Slynt was his man. Osney Kettleblack was orignially going to be the man sent to the Wall by Cersei, but this plan gets nixed when he confesses under torture to the Septon.

I need to find the PoV in ASoS where this is discussed...will post when found. It may have been Lord Tywin's plot to have Slynt a Commander after learning that he was there, but I seem to remember a deliberate plan to send Slynt to the Wall.

The 'deliberate plan' to send Slynt to the wall was Tyrion getting him the hell off the small council and out of King's Landing because he was worthless. He'd betray anyone at all for more coin. Tywin decided to use him when he found out he was up there, but he could have cared less about him before that. A small part of the reason he sent Tyrion to KL in the first place is because Cersei made Slynt Lord of Harrenhall. He had nothing but contempt for the son of a butcher raised up to a seat of kings.

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Ok, thank you. What I still don't get is why Stannis believes Theon in what Ramsay would do. And I don't get it either. The Freys and Manderlys were sent out in Theon's last chapter in ADWD, right? So we know at least the Freys came back to Winterfell after they were tricked by Mors Umber. So Manderly's group would be expected to retreat as well, wouldn't they? What I don't get is: While or after those groups go and came back to Winterfell, Ramsay will have noticed that 'Arya' is gone. There is fighting between guardsmen and spearwives beneath the Walls and Theon and 'Arya' have been seen jumping the walls. At the same time, Freys fall into holes outside. WHY shouldn't Ramsay immediately set out to get his bride and his Reek back and attack those hole diggers? What is he waiting for?

Theon was seen jumping from the wall. I don't think anybody had a chance to recognize 'Arya', nobody saw her closely. The fight happened well away from her chamber, so probably nobody suspected anything for a while. And it could be a long while.

And I'm not even sure that they recognized Theon in that snowstorm, if he had a cloak.

I mean, they are right beneath the walls? And then, after he saw what happened to the Freys, why would he send them out again, and then the Manderly group, and go last himself? Why not rally all those folk together and attack immediately, while they are right outside his castle, where he can regroup and get resources and all kinds of helpful assistance from inside? I don't get it. Why would he wait, and then go after Stannis instead? How does he even know Arya and Theon are with him? And isn't Ramsay the famous girl hunter? Why doesn't he use his dogs to hunt them down right after they escaped? Those Umber boys wouldn't have lasted long in making a stand, right?

No.

And the letter suggests Ramsay doesn't know where they are, maybe he has never thought they went to Stannis?

Pretty much this.

My guess on what happened. Stannis whoops the Frey's in the battle of ice. He'll then have the Dreadfort Maester send a raven to Winterfell describing a Frey rout of the Stannis army. Ramsay send the bullshit pink letter afterwards.

I agree.

It's too bad there won't be POV from what is going on inside Winterfell. How will the bannermen react to Aray not being there anymore? What will happen between Roose and Ramsay?

Maybe they don't know. Arya's disappearance is a disaster for Ramsay, so I think he may try to keep it secret and it seems he may be able to hide it for some time. Nobody has seen Arya since their wedding, and nobody is going to check if she is still there, right?

Maybe even Roose doesn't know. It would explain why there is no seal on the letter.

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Bowen Marsh didn't hate Jon (his stabbing of Jon is reluctant at best, he has tears in his eyes, and probably ( possible wishful thinking on my part, I'll give you that), he now considers himself a 'kinslayer' as well. Oh, and there's also the 'hierarchical guilty' as he kills his LC.

Also, Marsh has never befriended Slyntos, iirc; that was Alliser Thorne, who's gone ranging and is MIA at the mo.

Bowen Marsh supported Jon in the beginning, but slowly became angry with him over the course of several decisions that he did not agree with, including making Satin (a Wildling) his new steward, and other important appointments also going to other Wildlings. Marsh became a supporter of Slynt for Commander after his own defeat. Yes, Thorne was the one that Jon wanted to separate from Slynt, but the beheading of Slynt upset Marsh (page 111 in ADwD) and may have been the turning point in his loss of support for Jon.

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The 'deliberate plan' to send Slynt to the wall was Tyrion getting him the hell off the small council and out of King's Landing because he was worthless. He'd betray anyone at all for more coin. Tywin decided to use him when he found out he was up there, but he could have cared less about him before that. A small part of the reason he sent Tyrion to KL in the first place is because Cersei made Slynt Lord of Harrenhall. He had nothing but contempt for the son of a butcher raised up to a seat of kings.

I agree Tyrion's reasons for sending Slynt to the Wall because he could not trust him. I believe Tyrion had only good motives for trying to clean King's Landing of corruption and Slynt was one of the worst.

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So what happened to the Umber guys after the Freys fell into those traps? I think they might be the 'false king's friends' whose heads are on the walls of Winterfell. Also I thought the Freys had to return to Winterfell, if only to get new horses? They lost a lot of those, wasn't it said so? But we don't know for sure, because Theon is brought to the banker, is that correct?

It's a nice idea that a panicky Ramsay has been able to hide the fact that Arya is missing. It certainly would come close to what Theon experienced when he tried to hold Winterfell. But I wonder what he told the others about the fighting washerwomen on his walls then.

By the way, Satin is most definitely not a wildling.

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