[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3

[Melifeather]

I think the missing thing here is that no one in the host was supposed to know that Karstark's maester was the Dreadfort maester. When Stannis confronts him the scene seems to say that everyone has known the entire time and has just accepted it. The things that are definitely missing are how Stannis found this out and why exactly Karstark would bring the Dreadfort maester instead of his own. None of these questions are answered in the text, so it gives the impression that GRRM has either glossed over important information or made a mistake.

Maybe the Dreadfort maester earned his link in cartography and the Karhold maester didn't. I'm only half-joking, as that would actually be a pretty good explanation.

I think prior to this scene, when Stannis received Jon's scroll from the banker regarding Karhold actually being for Bolton, that brought to Stannis's attention that the Dreadfort Maester was there. Theon may have also told him. Theon saw him earlier at Winterfell because he commented on the richness of his cape.

[jarl the climber]

You do kinda sound like a smart ass, but that's OK. =) LOL

I think the whole dead direwolf scene is full of symbolism. Actually, the whole series of books are full of symbolism! There's an over riding storyline going on above the literal words. If you aren't interested in that sort of thing, you're not going to understand.

The problem with symbolism is it can mean 2 different things to 2 different people depending on thier perspective and culture. And it can mean something different to us than it does to the characters in the story. If there was a priest from the Drowned God there he would have said "What is dead truly never dies but rises again harder and stronger." A Drowned God priest would also have seen symbolism that it happened near water. Someone who who worshiped the new gods might see signifagance it the 7 wolves who were 1. There is symbolism there we can't even see when we first read it because we don't know enough about this world yet.I know that this is the scene that gave George the whole idea for the series. Here is the exact quote from ASOS pg 593 pb "I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain,but no one heard his his grief."

[Carey Snow]

You actually have the answer, but you're muddying it up with other stuff! It's like reading a story problem over and over until it makes absolutely no sense! lol

Like I've said before, Stannis wasn't asking any questions. His questions were actually accusations. Tybalt was afraid. The Theon chapter describes him as falling to his knees and that his eyes kept flitting up towards Theon. When Stannis asked where the two remaining crows were trained to fly, Dreadfort or Winterfell, then he did piss himself, because he was then sure that Stannis knew he was a spy.

I agree with Mel. When I read the scene, I understood that The Dreadfort Maester was a spy planted within the Karstarks to make sure they turn on Stannis and also feed information to the Boltons. Somehow Stannis found out. I am sure George RR Martin will give us more hints in Winds of Winter. My guess is Theon told him when Stannis read Jon's letter. Theon would know Bolton's plans and that he planted the Maester and Theon also wants to get on Stannis' goodside to try to save his own skin.

[Melifeather]

The problem with symbolism is it can mean 2 different things to 2 different people depending on thier perspective and culture. And it can mean something different to us than it does to the characters in the story. If there was a priest from the Drowned God there he would have said "What is dead truly never dies but rises again harder and stronger." A Drowned God priest would also have seen symbolism that it happened near water. Someone who who worshiped the new gods might see signifagance it the 7 wolves who were 1. There is symbolism there we can't even see when we first read it because we don't know enough about this world yet.I know that this is the scene that gave George the whole idea for the series. Here is the exact quote from ASOS pg 593 pb "I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain,but no one heard his his grief."

Perhaps. But I think if we went through each detail and I suggested some ideas, I think i could persuade you. I won't do that under this thread and get off topic. I'll probably start a new subject thread about symbolism.

[Lebronn Jaime]

Our major problem with the scene then hinges on a) the general obviousness of bringing the Dreadfort's maester and b ) the text which makes it seem like the big reveal was not that the maester was from the Dreadfort, but that his birds were trained to fly to Winterfell. Stannis and the maester seem unperturbed by the fact that both know he is sworn to House Bolton, while the reader is instantly hung up on that fact. I think that passage will see some editing before the book is released.

[Pympofpnas]

I just wanted to pop in and throw out the idea someone had on Stannis saying they had the ground; I was reading another thread and one person was saying they would use the island and lake to their advantage. I happened to chance upon this passage as I was rereading ADWD:

"Too few fish and too many fishermen," Lord Peasebury said gloomily. He had good reason for gloom; it was his men Ser Godry had just burned, and there were some in this very hall who had been heard to say that Peasebury himself surely knew what they were doing and might even have shared in their feasts.

"He's not wrong," grumbled Ned Woods, one of the scouts from Deepwood. Noseless Ned, he was called; frostbite had claimed the tip of his nose two winters past. Woods knew the wolfwood as well as any man alive. Even the king's proudest lords had learned to listen when he spoke. "I know them lakes. You been on them like maggots on a corpse, hundreds o' you. Cut so many holes in the ice it's a bloody wonder more haven't fallen through. Out by the island, there's places look like a cheese the rats been at." He shook his head. "Lakes are done. You fished them out."

ADWD 822

Would be interesting if they decided to possibly cut out more or use the lake to wreck Ramsay's army as they come.

[chrisdaw]

It's a very sound idea.

[Ingvarr Snow]

GRRM may not have written yet the Battle of Ice, but here is Battle of the Ice, filmed in 1939, but with excellent soundtrack:

A modern version of Stannis winning the battle on crushing ice: http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Been there, done that.

[Happy Ent]

Excellent stuff, Ingvarr!

[Ingvarr Snow]

Yeah. I rewatched Eisenstein's battle (first video) some six times, the music excellently builds up the tension. After so many rewatches I even see Stannis, this should go to casting tread, but the guy playing Nevsky grinds his teeth and looks all serious, the exact Stannis. Russian spear infantry -- there you have your bearded mountain clans. Bighorned guy is Bolton, and noone can doubt that a guy with a chicken leg on helm is Frey. I don't remember now if Manderley joins the battle on Ice, but if he does we now know what happens next -- after the battle he'll be renamed (posthumously) as Manderly - THE ICEBREAKER.

[3CityApache]

When Stannis asked where the two remaining crows were trained to fly, Dreadfort or Winterfell, then he did piss himself, because he was then sure that Stannis knew he was a spy.

And why exactly would Bolton need a spy in Karstark's host, provided Karstark himself was on his side? He basically needed only a maester of whatever origin who could tend to the ravens and make sure they'd fly to Winterfell. Logically it would be better if it was a maester from Karhold, because he could do exactly the same (tend to the ravens, send messages to Winterfell), but at the same time not rising suspicions. Actually it wouldn't even be suspicious to have an enemy's maester within his host, it would be plain stupid, and Stannis wouldn't even need any questions to discover a treason. And whatever Roose may be, he is NOT stupid.

As I haven't noticed anything strange in this Dreadfort measter business initially, Happy Ent's reasoning actually makes a lot of sense. It would be like shooting his own foot on Bolton's side. Usually maesters are quite widely known as specific house's maesters, it wouldn't be hard for quite a few people to figure out, that Karstark brought a Dreadfort maester instead of his own. And figuring this out equals discovering Karstark's treason.

[FanTasy]

Thanks Ingvarr!

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Around 3'29'' ....

Not a film I particularly liked, but the filming of a battle scene on weak ice was nicely done.

[FanTasy]

As I haven't noticed anything strange in this Dreadfort measter business initially, Happy Ent's reasoning actually makes a lot of sense. It would be like shooting his own foot on Bolton's side. Usually maesters are quite widely known as specific house's maesters, it wouldn't be hard for quite a few people to figure out, that Karstark brought a Dreadfort maester instead of his own. And figuring this out equals discovering Karstark's treason.

Nice thinking!

I wouldn't be surprised that what is revealed in the Gift Chapter about 'ravenlore' and how maesters are not always neutral bystanders and advisors can lead up to getting the Citadel in the game in book 6 and 7.

[Tini]

And why exactly would Bolton need a spy in Karstark's host, provided Karstark himself was on his side? He basically needed only a maester of whatever origin who could tend to the ravens and make sure they'd fly to Winterfell. Logically it would be better if it was a maester from Karhold, because he could do exactly the same (tend to the ravens, send messages to Winterfell), but at the same time not rising suspicions. Actually it wouldn't even be suspicious to have an enemy's maester within his host, it would be plain stupid, and Stannis wouldn't even need any questions to discover a treason. And whatever Roose may be, he is NOT stupid.

Maesters mostly work with their own birds, do they not? It might not be easy to find a maester you can trust and who has trained birds that go to Winterfell. And there is the question how much the Boltons trusted their ally Arnolf Karstark. They may have decided to send their own maester to send messages on behalf of Karstark officially, and to keep an eye on Karstark inofficially (just to make sure that Arnold would not turn his cloak on them).

Arnolf Karstark was planning to usurp Harrion and Alys Karstark's rights. The Karhold maester may have been more loyal to those two than to Arnolf Karstark. By her actions, Alys is supporting Stannis. It would not have been possible to keep the destination of the birds secret from the maester, and he might have spread that information. Or he may have been too old to ride with the host.

Maesters aren't noble, aren't important people. So while there is a risk that the maester is recognized as someone who served at the Dreadfort, it is just as possible that nobody pays any attention to a man tending to ravens. I think the Boltons counted on that.

ETA: Maesters have ranks as well. A maester stationed at an important castle like the Dreadfort probably has a higher rank than one who is sent with a host to look after messenger birds. People would not have expected that the Dreadfort maester serves as bird feeder of some lesser Northern lord, or looked at the bird feeder closely. And Stannis supporters are not exactly friendly with the Boltons, so not many of them would have had a chance to meet their maester.

[Happy Ent]

But all the Maester did was send a message given to him by Arnolf. He need not be “in” on anything. He probably found it strange that Arnolf told him to bring ravens for Winterfell, and my have asked twice. (Karhold definitely has a bunch of Winterfell-homing ravens, more than for any other castle for sure.)

But that’s it. He shrugged, and did what he was told. Bring ravens for Winterfell. Easily explained, should Tybald have the nerve to ask Arnolf about it. (They were planning to take Winterfell and establish Lord Stannis’s headquarters there, so it would make sense to have some communication with Winterfell after it’s taken.)

But even if Tybald begins to smell something fishy while packing his ravens, what should he do? His vows are quite clear: do as you’re told. Should Tybald tell Stannis? That makes no sense, Stannis is a traitor in the eyes of the realm.

No. It’s best for Tybald to just mind his own business, instead of trying to uncover a conspiracy that he has no interest in uncovering.

Then, just a few days ago, Arnolf comes to him with a letter to send. A letter to Winterfell. Tybald may have asked what the letter was about, or why it was for Winterfell, or he may have looked at it before sending it. (Maesters so that, we’ve been told.) So now he knows that Arnolf is indeed on Bolton’s side.

Again, what should he do now? His vows are quite clear. Do nothing. Certainly don’t rat out Arnolf to Stannis. Tybald could have fled, but it’s difficult in the snow storm. (And would be desertion anyway.) So he does nothing, continuing in his maesterly duties.

Then Stannis’s men summon him and his raven cages to the tower. Without the ravens, he could still have lied and professed no knowledge about any communication between the camp and Winterfell. But it’s easy enough to prove that 1. there is an empty raven cage and 2. the ravens, once released will fly directly toward Winterfell.

Caught, as Theon thinks.

Tybald’s dialogue makes complete sense.

(And, Mel, he falls to his knees because Stannis is the king.)

[Ingvarr Snow]

It's a mistake, or else the conversation between Stannis and maester makes no sense. He's asking him why Karstark brought a maester with him, and not why did he bring an enemy maester. As Stannis says that he's a Dreadfort maester (a mistake, he should say a Karhold maester), he never asks how he ended up with Karstarks. Like, did Karstark wrote a letter to Dreadfort and ask the Bolton castellan, "I'm riding against your Lord, please lend me your maester, mine is too old to ride with us". This issue is never touched, for one reason -- because it's a mistake, and Stannis leads an interrogation into a direction of why did Karstark bring a maester with him (and not why did he bring the enemy's maester). It' pretty obvious.

Even though it's somehow possible that noone would recognize Bolton's maester, but why risk it? Even if chance of recognition is slim, why would Karstarks and Boltons risk to get exposed. Besides the chances are not that slim, some of Karstark men may have well recognize him, the castles are near, Karstark's and Bolton's lands probably even share the border. It would really be stupid and for little or no gain to bring an enemy maester with you, against whom you supposedly march.

[chrisdaw]

Our major problem with the scene then hinges on a) the general obviousness of bringing the Dreadfort's maester and b ) the text which makes it seem like the big reveal was not that the maester was from the Dreadfort, but that his birds were trained to fly to Winterfell. Stannis and the maester seem unperturbed by the fact that both know he is sworn to House Bolton, while the reader is instantly hung up on that fact. I think that passage will see some editing before the book is released.

Yeah it certainly seems this way, unless there is good reason for the Karstarks to have a Dreadfort maester, which if there was there should be an explanation of why in the text.

[3CityApache]

And there is the question how much the Boltons trusted their ally Arnolf Karstark. They may have decided to send their own maester to send messages on behalf of Karstark officially, and to keep an eye on Karstark inofficially (just to make sure that Arnold would not turn his cloak on them).

There might be a possibility Bolton wanted to keep an eye on Karstark, not trusting him entirely, but doing so by giving him his own maester would be way too risky and Roose had to be well aware of it. Besides, it would grow Karstark's suspicions as well, as it would be a clear sign of distrust.

Maesters aren't noble, aren't important people. So while there is a risk that the maester is recognized as someone who served at the Dreadfort, it is just as possible that nobody pays any attention to a man tending to ravens. I think the Boltons counted on that.

They may not be noble, but they're certainly important figures. Maester Luwin used to sit behind a high table in Winterfell at most ocassions even when Eddard Stark was still alive, as an important advisor,

And Stannis supporters are not exactly friendly with the Boltons, so not many of them would have had a chance to meet their maester.

What? But they became enemies in probably less than a year! Till the Red Wedding Bolton was considered a loyal and trustworthy bannerman of the Starks. And northern lords probably used to visit each other on certain ocassions, there had to be plenty such ocassions for Karstark men (and not only them, northmen from Stannis camp as well) to know a maester from Dreadfort.

[Happy Ent]

By the way, we had a thread speculating about the Dreadfort maester (which must be a scary job) many years ago: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/26994-the-maester-of-the-dreadfort/ .

Also: http://www.purposegames.com/game/560

[Melifeather]

But all the Maester did was send a message given to him by Arnolf. He need not be “in” on anything. He probably found it strange that Arnolf told him to bring ravens for Winterfell, and my have asked twice. (Karhold definitely has a bunch of Winterfell-homing ravens, more than for any other castle for sure.)

But that’s it. He shrugged, and did what he was told. Bring ravens for Winterfell. Easily explained, should Tybald have the nerve to ask Arnolf about it. (They were planning to take Winterfell and establish Lord Stannis’s headquarters there, so it would make sense to have some communication with Winterfell after it’s taken.)

But even if Tybald begins to smell something fishy while packing his ravens, what should he do? His vows are quite clear: do as you’re told. Should Tybald tell Stannis? That makes no sense, Stannis is a traitor in the eyes of the realm.

No. It’s best for Tybald to just mind his own business, instead of trying to uncover a conspiracy that he has no interest in uncovering.

Then, just a few days ago, Arnolf comes to him with a letter to send. A letter to Winterfell. Tybald may have asked what the letter was about, or why it was for Winterfell, or he may have looked at it before sending it. (Maesters so that, we’ve been told.) So now he knows that Arnolf is indeed on Bolton’s side.

Again, what should he do now? His vows are quite clear. Do nothing. Certainly don’t rat out Arnolf to Stannis. Tybald could have fled, but it’s difficult in the snow storm. (And would be desertion anyway.) So he does nothing, continuing in his maesterly duties.

Then Stannis’s men summon him and his raven cages to the tower. Without the ravens, he could still have lied and professed no knowledge about any communication between the camp and Winterfell. But it’s easy enough to prove that 1. there is an empty raven cage and 2. the ravens, once released will fly directly toward Winterfell.

Caught, as Theon thinks.

Tybald’s dialogue makes complete sense.

(And, Mel, he falls to his knees because Stannis is the king.)

OK, couple things to point out here. The Maester is from Bolton's Dreadfort. He was with Karstark's forces. Karhold is supposed to be for the North. The Maester already knows they're not for the North, but for Bolton. I would think anyone that is already working for Bolton understands what kind of man he is and why the Maester would be assigned to Karhold, because Bolton doesn't automatically trust the Karstarks. I seriously doubt that the Maester "shrugged" about sending crows to Winterfell. And I doubt Karstark's told him to do it. His instructions come from Bolton, and he knows he had better obey. That he was "afraid", no, terrified goes without saying when he finally pisses himself.