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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3


Angalin

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It's a mistake, or else the conversation between Stannis and maester makes no sense. He's asking him why Karstark brought a maester with him, and not why did he bring an enemy maester. As Stannis says that he's a Dreadfort maester (a mistake, he should say a Karhold maester), he never asks how he ended up with Karstarks. Like, did Karstark wrote a letter to Dreadfort and ask the Bolton castellan, "I'm riding against your Lord, please lend me your maester, mine is too old to ride with us". This issue is never touched, for one reason -- because it's a mistake, and Stannis leads an interrogation into a direction of why did Karstark bring a maester with him (and not why did he bring the enemy's maester). It' pretty obvious.

Even though it's somehow possible that noone would recognize Bolton's maester, but why risk it? Even if chance of recognition is slim, why would Karstarks and Boltons risk to get exposed. Besides the chances are not that slim, some of Karstark men may have well recognize him, the castles are near, Karstark's and Bolton's lands probably even share the border. It would really be stupid and for little or no gain to bring an enemy maester with you, against whom you supposedly march.

It's not a mistake!

When a King or a Lord is about to execute someone, they usually accuse them of their crime so that there is no doubt as to why they are being killed. This line of "questioning" is leading up to the Maester's execution. Karhold is supposed to be for the North. They've aligned themselves with Bolton. He's supposed to infiltrate Stannis and attack him from the inside. They were taking the chance that nobody would notice Bolton's Maester was with them. Stannis had Jon's warning letter about the Karstarks and bringing the Maester is part of the process of learning all of the details. It's intelligience gathering. Stannis was revealing all of Karhold's deceit. This wasn't about the Karstarks having a Maester with them, it was about bringing a Bolton Maester with him that was feeding intel to Winterfell.

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Yeah it certainly seems this way, unless there is good reason for the Karstarks to have a Dreadfort maester, which if there was there should be an explanation of why in the text.

I really do not understand why this is confusing for anybody! Of course there is a good reason for the Karstark's to have the Dreadfort's Maester with them!!! Because the Karstarks are supposed to be for the North, but they were sent to Stannis to infiltrate and attack from within! The Dreadfort Maester belongs to Bolton and he's reporting back to Bolton, such as STANNIS'S LOCATION! So that the Freys and Manderleys, and later Ramsay's forces can attack. All of this is understood from reading the text! GRRM shouldn't have to insert a line, such as "Bolton sent his Maester with the Karstark's so he could report where they found Stannis, and make sure that the Karstark's don't flip sides again and join Stannis." Come on!

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GRRM shouldn't have to insert a line, such as "Bolton sent his Maester with the Karstark's so he could report where they found Stannis, and make sure that the Karstark's don't flip sides again and join Stannis." Come on!

He'll have to, otherwise the entire chapter has to be cut from the finished novel. There are too many readers who are not capable of understanding such complex things as espionage and betrayal.

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Chill out, you're arguing with a wall... when the person you should be arguing with is behind your back. People here definitely understand what you're saying, but what they're arguing is different: If Arnolf wanted to betray Stannis, it makes little sense to have the maester of his enemies with him, as it would make his intentions evident.

Now, this could certainly be explained, but I find it just as likely that it's just a mistake, there's no point of arguing about it, much less to the point of e-yelling.

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It's not a mistake!

When a King or a Lord is about to execute someone, they usually accuse them of their crime so that there is no doubt as to why they are being killed. This line of "questioning" is leading up to the Maester's execution.

I don't think Stannis would execute the Maester.

He knows the order and respects it. He knows that they are bound to serve and don't have choice but to obey their lord.

It sounded clear to me from his speech in this chapter that he has no intention to kill the maester. He is bound to the Dreadfort/Karhold (I still can't decide whether I lean towards an editing mistake or not). So he would serve any lord Stannis designates in the Dreadfort/Karhold if he wins. There is no reason to execute him.

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If Arnolf wanted to betray Stannis, it makes little sense to have the maester of his enemies with him, as it would make his intentions evident.

Precisely. And the text itself support the mistake version, as someone has already pointed out, that otherwise the grand evidence for the Karstark's betrayal for Stannis would be simply having an enemy maester with him, not having a maester with the birds that fly to Winterfell. As a matter of fact Stannis doesn't need maester's questioning if it's a maester from Dreadfort, even in a sense Melisandre is speaking about, or the point of questioning would be only to confirm he is indeed a Dreadfort maester. But Stannis doesn't ask him if he was from Dreadfort, he merely states it as a fact, which doesn't seem to bother him at all. What bothers him is his birds and their destination, no matter what the real point of questioning is.

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I don't think Stannis would execute the Maester.

He knows the order and respects it. He knows that they are bound to serve and don't have choice but to obey their lord.

It sounded clear to me from his speech in this chapter that he has no intention to kill the maester. He is bound to the Dreadfort/Karhold (I still can't decide whether I lean towards an editing mistake or not). So he would serve any lord Stannis designates in the Dreadfort/Karhold if he wins. There is no reason to execute him.

You don't believe Stannis would execute a Maester guilty of treason? Because, in Stannis's eyes, this is treason.

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You don't believe Stannis would execute a Maester guilty of treason? Because, in Stannis's eyes, this is treason.

from the sample chapter.

"Your Grace must understand — "

"Must I?" The king shrugged. "If you say so. You are a man of learning, after all. I had a maester on Dragonstone who was almost a father to me. I have great respect for your order and its vows.

So he is not going to kill him for following his vows. Also why do you have to treat others with disrespect, everyone here that belives diffent that you have treated you with respect. I think you should do the same. If you have been on this board for very long you should be use to people seeing things diffent from you. NO NEED TO HAVE A ATTITUDE.

Everyone understands your argument of why Bolton would want to send his Maeter. You havent answered why the Karstarks would risk there lives with a Dreadfort maester. Thats like carrrying a sign, I am about to to stap you in the back. Its not smart. No one has taken on how stannis knows he is from the Dreadfort. I dont think the timeline allows the girl karstark at the wall to know about it. Also I think its enougth info from Jon just to say the Karstarks with you are traiters. I dont think he would have had or included the info about the Maester in his letters.

"Bolton sent his Maester with the Karstark's so he could report where they found Stannis, and make sure that the Karstark's don't flip sides again and join Stannis." Come on!

If Karstarks did decide to flip sides whats a MAESTER going to do about it? If they were going to do this they could just kill him. Not like he can do anything.

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Precisely. And the text itself support the mistake version, as someone has already pointed out, that otherwise the grand evidence for the Karstark's betrayal for Stannis would be simply having an enemy maester with him, not having a maester with the birds that fly to Winterfell. As a matter of fact Stannis doesn't need maester's questioning if it's a maester from Dreadfort, even in a sense Melisandre is speaking about, or the point of questioning would be only to confirm he is indeed a Dreadfort maester. But Stannis doesn't ask him if he was from Dreadfort, he merely states it as a fact, which doesn't seem to bother him at all. What bothers him is his birds and their destination, no matter what the real point of questioning is.

Lets break this down and start with the passage where one of Stannis's knights is bringing requests for audiences from the Maester, Arnolf Karstark, and Lord Wull. I'm highlighting in areas to pay particular attention to:

"Sire," he announced, "the maester is without. And Lord Arnolf sends word that he would be most pleased to break his fast with you."

"The son as well?"

"And the grandsons. Lord Wull seeks audience as well. He wants — "

"I know what he wants." The king indicated Theon. "Him. Wull wants him dead. Flint, Norrey... all of them will want him dead. For the boys he slew. Vengeance for their precious Ned."

"Will you oblige them?"

"Just now, the turncloak is more use to me alive. He has knowledge we may need. Bring in this maester." The king plucked a parchment off the table and squinted over it. A letter, Theon knew. Its broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. I know what that says, he thought, giggling.

From the above passage, Stannis has received Jon's letter warning him of Arnolf Karstark's intentions. The black wax indicates the letter is from the Wall. That Arnolf is seeking to have breakfast with Stannis, indicates the ruse isn't out in the open just yet. That the Maester is waiting indicates that Stannis has summoned him and is questioning him in order to, not only confirm the truth of the letter from Jon, but to gather intelligence similar to what he says about Theon, that "the turncloak is more use to me alive. He has knowledge we may need." Stannis is expecting that the Maester too may have valuable knowledge.

The next passage is further down after they are questioning Jeyne/Arya and indicates that the Boltons have learned of Stannis's location:

Mors Umber had grunted. "Aye." What he might have said or done next Theon never learned, for that was when the boy ran up, clutching a spear and shouting that the portcullis on Winterfell's main gate was rising. And how Crowfood had grinned at that.

Theon twisted in his chains, and blinked down at the king. "Crowfood found us, yes, he sent us here to you, but it was me who saved her.

The following passage is a little further down again and indicates that the Maester Tybald had tried to conceal his true identity:

The door opened with a gust of cold black wind and a swirl of snow. The knight of the moths had returned with the maester the king had sent for, his grey robes concealed beneath a heavy bearskin pelt.

The next passage:

"Maester Tybald," announced the knight of the moths.

The maester sank to his knees. He was red-haired and round-shouldered, with close-set eyes that kept flicking toward Theon hanging on the wall. "Your Grace. How may I be of service?"

Stannis did not reply at once. He studied the man before him, his brow furrowed. "Get up." The maester rose. "You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?"

"Lord Arnolf brought me to tend to his wounded."

"To his wounded? Or his ravens?"

"Both, Your Grace."

"Both." Stannis snapped the word out. "A maester's raven flies to one place, and one place only. Is that correct?"

From the above passage we know that Stannis is unhappy, at the very least, concerned, indicated by the "furrowed" brow and that he "snapped the word" "both". This is a big clue that Stannis suspects Maester Tybald (of the Dreadfort) is with the Karstarks in order to send crows to Winterfell. Remember, Arnolf is casually requesting to have breakfast at this point and is unaware that Stannis received Jon's letter.

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from the sample chapter.

"Your Grace must understand — "

"Must I?" The king shrugged. "If you say so. You are a man of learning, after all. I had a maester on Dragonstone who was almost a father to me. I have great respect for your order and its vows.

So he is not going to kill him for following his vows. Also why do you have to treat others with disrespect, everyone here that belives diffent that you have treated you with respect. I think you should do the same. If you have been on this board for very long you should be use to people seeing things diffent from you. NO NEED TO HAVE A ATTITUDE.

Everyone understands your argument of why Bolton would want to send his Maeter. You havent answered why the Karstarks would risk there lives with a Dreadfort maester. Thats like carrrying a sign, I am about to to stap you in the back. Its not smart. No one has taken on how stannis knows he is from the Dreadfort. I dont think the timeline allows the girl karstark at the wall to know about it. Also I think its enougth info from Jon just to say the Karstarks with you are traiters. I dont think he would have had or included the info about the Maester in his letters.

If Karstarks did decide to flip sides whats a MAESTER going to do about it? If they were going to do this they could just kill him. Not like he can do anything.

slayer - I'm sorry. I did not realize that I was being disrespectful. I will try to be more careful. I am frustrated that what seems obvious to me seems so complicated to some. I don't recall any passages as to whether or not the Karstarks were fully aware they had Maester Tybald with them. He was in disguise.

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You don't believe Stannis would execute a Maester guilty of treason? Because, in Stannis's eyes, this is treason.

Well, the way I see it it's only obeying his master's orders. This is not a maester, who's treason is important for Stannis.

Melisandra, your quote just proves my point IMO:

"You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?"

"Lord Arnolf brought me to tend to his wounded."

"To his wounded? Or his ravens?"

If it was really a Dreadfort maester, and not Karhold, Stannis's reply to maesters answer should be something like:

'Lord Arnolf? How come it is Lord Arnolf brought you if your lord is Roose Bolton, the enemy we're fighting against?"

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, his grey robes concealed beneath a heavy bearskin pelt.

Wow your really grasping for straws. He couldnt be wearing a heavy bearskin pelt BECAUSE its winter and people are freezing to death. That is the most logical thinking for this. Also if he wanted to hide who he was woudnt he just take off his rope and where something else.

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, his grey robes concealed beneath a heavy bearskin pelt.

Wow your really grasping for straws. He couldnt be wearing a heavy bearskin pelt BECAUSE its winter and people are freezing to death. That is the most logical thinking for this. Also if he wanted to hide who he was woudnt he just take off his rope and where something else.

If you don't see this logical line of reasoning, I'm at a loss to continue. I'm trying to help you understand, but you're hung up on something that is blocking your way.

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I'm still not sure why we aren't seeing Stannis send some men to the wall. I find it hard to fault basically anyone who works for the skinners for following orders.

I'll guess Stannis sends Tybald to the wall.

Why would he send anyone to the Wall?

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"Your Grace must understand — "

"Must I?" The king shrugged. "If you say so. You are a man of learning, after all. I had a maester on Dragonstone who was almost a father to me. I have great respect for your order and its vows. Ser Clayton does not share my feelings, though. He learned all he knows in the wynds of Flea Bottom. Were I to put you in his charge, he might strangle you with your own chain or scoop your eye out with a spoon."

"Only the one, Your Grace," volunteered the balding knight, him of the winged pig. "I'd leave t'other."

"How many eyes does a maester need to read a letter?" asked Stannis. "One should suffice, I'd think. I would not wish to leave you unable to fulfill your duties to your lord. Roose Bolton's men may well be on their way to attack us even now, however, so you must understand if I skimp on certain courtesies. I will ask you once again. What was in the message you sent to Winterfell?"

The maester quivered. "A m-map, Your Grace."

The king leaned back in his chair. "Get him out of here," he commanded. "Leave the ravens." A vein was throbbing in his neck. "Confine this grey wretch to one of the huts until I decide what is to be done with him."

The above passage is a good example of satire, and it doesn't sound like Stannis has any remaining respect for this particular maester.

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, his grey robes concealed beneath a heavy bearskin pelt.

Wow your really grasping for straws. He couldnt be wearing a heavy bearskin pelt BECAUSE its winter and people are freezing to death. That is the most logical thinking for this. Also if he wanted to hide who he was woudnt he just take off his rope and where something else.

I understand Melisandra's frustration and his feeling of beeing trolled. Do you honestly believe GRRM would write a huge error like this (dreadfort >< karhold) in a sample chapter, let alone in any of his books? GRRM KNOWS ppl pick at every written word, heck even comma errors get debated here!

Now, the obvious part here is the word 'concealed', he would use "he wore his maester's robes beneath a heavy bearskin pelt." instead of concealed if he meant it only for warmth. Even if the maester used it only for warmth, GRRM still uses the word concealed to convey a message to the reader, a message that deceit is in play here.

The other part, which I would've put in red aswell, was this: "

The maester sank to his knees" If he meant a royal bend of the knee, he would've said so. The maester sinks to his knees, as if he's been caught. Which he is.

ETA: posted this while the above post was posted. LOL why is anybody debating this? It's freaking obvious... this isn't a topic for debate, it's a fact.

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And once again your quote just proves my point.

"How many eyes does a maester need to read a letter?" asked Stannis. "One should suffice, I'd think. I would not wish to leave you unable to fulfill your duties to your lord.

We all know, that if maester Tybald comes from Dreadfort, and not from Karhold, his lord is Roose Bolton, and NOT Arnolf Karstark.

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I understand Melisandra's frustration and his feeling of beeing trolled. Do you honestly believe GRRM would write a huge error like this (dreadfort >< karhold) in a sample chapter, let alone in any of his books? GRRM KNOWS ppl pick at every written word, heck even comma errors get debated here!

guess you didnt read the early posts on the sample chapter where ahsa is taking Lady Glover back to the Iron Ilands and in the sample chapter She is called Lady Bolton. Go to the error tread for ADWD. There are a few with people being called the wrong name and that was with editors edting it and people reading it before it was released to find these errors. GRRM is a very good writer but He is know to make mistakes with eye color, horses switching from male to female and people being called the wrong name. It happens.

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