[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3

[Melifeather]

I completely agree.

In The Citadel: Prophecies: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1813/ They offer three intriguing ideas for:

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

A true mystery, the figure was commonly thought to perhaps represent Theon Greyjoy after escaping his fate at the hands of the Boltons, Gerion Lannister, and even Davos Seaworth. In the case of the Gerion, the bright eyes in a dead face may represent the fact that he is alive despite the common belief that he was lost at sea. Another fringe possibility is that the figure is someone like Coldhands, a sentient and autonomous wight, but this does not answer who it might be or why they would be aboard a ship.

A reader points out that A Dance with Dragons may provide the solution: this represents the blue-eyed ("eyes bright") Jon Connington, the dead face and grey lips representing his fate thanks to the greyscale he has become infected with. His being a corpse might also reflect the fact that he's presumed to be dead already in Westeros. We find this a convincing suggestion.

A Dance with Dragons, and the grouping that follows from the Undying, strongly suggests this figure is in fact one of her "husbands" in some fashion. In this case, the events of the novel suggest that Victarion Greyjoy, not his nephew Theon. His having a "dead face" may reference his strange healing at the hands of Moqorro.

[RSU]

I just had to post my joy at being able to cross another Frey off this list, and since my assumption is that we aren't supposed to mention this chapter anywhere else, I'm doing it here:

Byebye Aenys! Hope Hosteen joins you soon.

1. Ser Edwyn Frey

2. Walda Frey

3. Walder (Black Walder) Frey

Petry Pimple Frey

4. Perra Frey

Jimglebell Frey

5. Walton Frey

6. Steffon (the Sweet) Frey

7. Bryan Frey

8. Walda (Fair Walda) Frey

Maegell Frey

9. Walder Vance

10. Patrek Vance

11. Marianne Vance

12. Ser Emmon Frey

Ser Cleos Frey

13. Tywin Frey

14. Willem Frey

15. Ser Lyonel Frey

Tion Frey

16. Walder (Red Walder) Frey

17. Ser Aenys Frey [New Theon Chapter]

Aegon (Aegon Bloodborn) Frey [Excluded: Outlaw]

Rhaegar Frey

18. Robert Frey

19. Jonos Frey

20. Walda (White Walda) Frey

Ser Jard Frey

Ser tytos Frey

21. Zachery Frey

22. Zia Frey

23. Kyra Frey

24. Walder Goodbrook

25. Jeyne Goodbrook

Septon Luceon Frey [Excluded: Septon]

26. Ser Hosteen Frey

27. Ser Arwood Frey

28= Androw Frey

28= Alyn Frey

30. Ryella Frey

31. Hostella Frey

Symond Frey

32. Alesander Frey

33. Bradamar Frey

34. Alyx Frey

35. Ser Danwell Frey

Merritt Frey

Little Walder Frey

36. Amerei (Gatehouse Ami) Frey

37. Walda (Fat Walda) Frey

38. Marissa Frey

Ser Geremy Frey

39. Sandor Frey

40. Cynthea Frey

41. Ser Raymond Frey

42. Robert Frey

43. Malwyn Frey

44= Jaime Frey

44= Tywin Frey

46= Serra Frey

46= Sarra Frey

48. Cersei (Little Bee) Frey

49. Lothar (Lame Lothar) Frey

50. Tysane Frey

51. Walda Frey

52. Emberlei Frey

53. Leana Frey

54. Ser Jammos Frey

55. Walder (Big Walder) Frey

56= Dickon Frey

56= Mathis Frey

58. Ser Whalen Frey

59. Hoster Frey

60. Merianne (Merry) Frey

61. Ser Perywn Frey

Ser Benfrey Frey

62. Osmund Frey

63. Della (Deaf Della) Frey

Maester Willamen Frey [Excluded: Maester]

64. Olyvar Frey

65. Wendel Frey

66. Colmar Frey

67. Waltyr Frey

68. Elmar Frey

69. Perriane Frey

70. Ser Harys Haigh

71. Walder Haigh

72. Ser Donnel Haigh

73. Alyn Haigh

74. Lyenthe Frey

75. Ser Damon Vypren

76. Elyana Vypren

77. Rickard Wylde

78. Morya Frey

79. Robert Brax

80. Walder Brax

81. Jon Brax

82. Tyta Frey

83. Roslin Frey

84. Arywn Frey

85. Shirei Frey.

[Wouter]

You shouldn't write such a 'witty' post without checking first

Do you mean, checking with you to see if I have your permission to post? :shocked:

A maester serves the house he is appointed to, so if Karstark says "he's with me" in a big host like stannis', with many people that aren't familiar with the north let alone the Boltons, not many people will argue with this.

The way the chapter is written, Stannis knew and it wasn't remarkable by itself. Stannis didn't "nail" the maester until he got to the ravens. If he had just uncovered the secret presence of Bolton's own maester, the whole raven thing would not have been necessary to show deceit on the maester's part (and Karstarks part).

And the alternative is that Karstark just announces to everyone he has the maester of the Boltons with him - without a story of how he daringly captured him in a nightraid on the Dreadfort, or anything. Just that he "is with him". Like that's all normal...

[Ghost714]

Theon becomes aware of where he is when Stannis was talking to the banker. After the banker leaves then Lord Wull requests an audience, but Stannis puts him off in favor of the Maester. That is when Theon notices the letter with the broken black seal. I just think its odd that "he knows" instead of "he thinks he knows". How could he know that Jon was warning Stannis about the Karstarks?

I believe that it is entirely plausible, for Theon to say "I know what that says"

I believe the letter is from Jon warning Stannis about Karstark. With that said, Jon wrote his warning in a letter, but he also told Tycho about Karstark turning his cloak. Tycho, while trying to find Stannis, went all the way to Winterfell. Tycho found Mors Crowfood Umber, instead of Stannis. Mors Umber then sends "Arya" and Theon, with Tycho. That way Tycho can get "Arya" to a safer place, and get Theon far away from Mors Umber, by taking them to Stannis.

Trying to find Stannis could have taken a lot of time, thats along time for conversations. It is very likely that Tycho would explain to "Arya", Theon, and the Iron Men, that Karstark is planning to turn his cloak. That way they would all know, that it would be bad to run into Karstark. And if they do, they know to be on their guard.

So basically I believe the letter is from Jon, and that Theon would know what it says, because Tycho told Theon, and the rest of their traveling group.

I believe this quote for sure proves the letter is from Jon,

"Oh, and take the Stark girl with you.  Deliver her to Lord Commander Snow on your way to Eastwatch."  Stannis tapped the parchment that lay before him.  "A true king pays his debts."

"The parchment that lay before him" is the same parchment from this quote,

" The king plucked a parchment off the table and squinted over it.  A letter, Theon knew.  Its broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. "

[Melifeather]

I don't have the book and chapter or page number to support this, but I do remember reading that Theon recognizes the Dreadfort Maester at Winterfell, and comments on what a nice grey cloak he was wearing and that it was a gift. I believe this is the same grey cloak that is mentioned as being concealed.

When I mentioned Theon knowing the contents of the letter from the Wall, I meant to start a new discussion, but I now think it ties in with GRRMs intention to use Tybald in this chapter. When it dawns on Theon where he is, it's after: the banker, the requests from Wull and Karstark, the announcement of a Maester, and then he notices the letter. Theon adds all of that information together and "knows" the deceit of Karhold is now known and the Maester will become the confirmation.

[slayer420]

Damn thats alot of Frys. It makes me happy and puts a smile on my face every time one of them die. Guess I will be smiling alot.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Why would he send anyone to the Wall?

Because Stannis knows the NW needs men and sending men to the wall was a normal punishment for soldiers on the losing side. We're told that's how a few characters ended on the wall, including Alisor Thorne sent to the Wall by Tywin Lannister. I was sort of surprised when Jon did not suggest sending some men to the wall when speaking to Stannis before Stannis set off.

[Melifeather]

Because Stannis knows the NW needs men and sending men to the wall was a normal part of punishment for soldiers being on the losing side. We're told that's how a few characters ended on the wall, including Alisor Thorne sent to the Wall by Tywin Lannister.

Yes. I'm quite aware of this practice, but I don't see the wisdom of it during battle. It would deplete his resources of valuable good men in order to escort any undesirables to the Wall. Stannis needs every man and I'm sure it pained him to send Justin Massey to buy sellswords.

[Ghost714]

Yes. I'm quite aware of this practice, but I don't see the wisdom of it during battle. It would deplete his resources of valuable good men in order to escort any undesirables to the Wall. Stannis needs every man and I'm sure it pained him to send Justin Massey to buy sellswords.

Justin Massey could take Maester Tybald with him, along with "Arya". I know Stannis doesn't mention this, when he tells Justin, "Oh, and take the Stark girl with you.  Deliver her to Lord Commander Snow on your way to Eastwatch."  Stannis tapped the parchment that lay before him.  "A true king pays his debts."

But it could still happen. Jon does need more maesters, maybe Tybald is the first, of many to go to the Wall. Cassel Black is in dire need of a maester, at this current time. Justin Massey seemed to be leaving right then, maybe Stannis decides to send Tybald, a day or so after Justin leaves. It would only take one or two men to take Tybald, and catch up to Justin. Then that one or two men would only be gone for a few days, I think Stannis could afford that, because Justin would be taking Tybald for the bulk of the travel to the Wall.

[slayer420]

Justin Massey could take Maester Tybald with him, along with "Arya". I know Stannis doesn't mention this, when he tells Justin, "Oh, and take the Stark girl with you. Deliver her to Lord Commander Snow on your way to Eastwatch." Stannis tapped the parchment that lay before him. "A true king pays his debts."

But it could still happen. Jon does need more maesters, maybe Tybald is the first, of many to go to the Wall. Cassel Black is in dire need of a maester, at this current time. Justin Massey seemed to be leaving right then, maybe Stannis decides to send Tybald, a day or so after Justin leaves. It would only take one or two men to take Tybald, and catch up to Justin. Then that one or two men would only be gone for a few days, I think Stannis could afford that, because Justin would be taking Tybald for the bulk of the travel to the Wall.

:agree: That makes alot of since. good post.

[Grail King]

Theon was seen jumping from the wall. I don't think anybody had a chance to recognize 'Arya', nobody saw her closely. The fight happened well away from her chamber, so probably nobody suspected anything for a while. And it could be a long while.

And I'm not even sure that they recognized Theon in that snowstorm, if he had a cloak.

No.

And the letter suggests Ramsay doesn't know where they are, maybe he has never thought they went to Stannis?

I agree.

Maybe they don't know. Arya's disappearance is a disaster for Ramsay, so I think he may try to keep it secret and it seems he may be able to hide it for some time. Nobody has seen Arya since their wedding, and nobody is going to check if she is still there, right?

Maybe even Roose doesn't know. It would explain why there is no seal on the letter.

I think no one suspected "Arya" gone is because a spearwife replaced her and was taking a bath at the time.

I'm still on page 3 in this thread so forgive me for lateness.

[Tini]

The Wall has a problem bigger than lack of men, and that is lack of trustworthy men. Sending Maester Tybald to the Wall would increase this problem.

If the Citadel even allows Maester Tybald to be sent to the Wall for following orders given to him by legitimate sources, they would insist that Tybald is a maester, and post him to the Wall as replacement for Maester Aemon.

While the Watch needs a maester, they need a maester they can trust. Tybald could be trusted less than Aliser Thorne, and he would be given a position where he'll be privy to all correspondence sent by raven. He would also be advisor to the Lord Commander due to his position. Great idea.

Sending criminals to the Wall is not advisable at the moment. Any Lannister/Bolton supporter sent to the Wall makes it more likely that Stannis will lose the support of the Night's Watch. If he hasn't already.

[Happy Ent]

Good call about sending Tybald to the wall.

This is would allow GRRM to have a maester at the wall despite the fact that he doesn’t have Sam. (With a five year gap, Sam could conceivably have travelled to Oldtown, levelled up, and gotten back before the waste hit the fan at the Wall. This is now no longer possible. Hence: new maester. Nice save, GRRM.)

@Mel, post #385: I would be very surprised if there was a maester from the Dreadfort at Winterfell. But I’m happy to be proved wrong. I’m half a planet from my books myself, so could please look that up?

[kissdbyfire]

@Mel, post #385: I would be very surprised if there was a maester from the Dreadfort at Winterfell. But I’m happy to be proved wrong. I’m half a planet from my books myself, so could please look that up?

Just did a quick search for ‘maester’ in ADwD. Only ones with relevance here seem to be the two below; first is from when Theon is riding with Roose, and the second is actually at Winterfell. In the first one, Roose say the maester ‘says’ instead of said; is it possible this maester is still around? I’ve no idea... In the second, we are introduced to three maesters, but not one of them is from the Dreadfort.

“Yes, m’lord. Domeric. I … I have heard his name …”

“Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison. In the Vale, Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort’s sons. He wanted a brother by his side, so he rode up the Weeping Water to seek my bastard out.

---

She might have said more, but then she saw the maesters. Three of them had entered together by the lord’s door behind the dais—one tall, one plump, one very young, but in their robes and chains they were three grey peas from a black pod. Before the war, Medrick had served Lord Hornwood, Rhodry Lord Cerwyn, and young Henly Lord Slate. Roose Bolton had brought them all to Winterfell to take charge of Luwin’s ravens, so messages might be sent and received from here again.

[Winterfail]

<snip> I'd be curious to know if there are any other forums on the internet that discuss a book or series of books this thoroughly?

Yes. The Wheel of Time has been picked apart at least this thoroughly on a number of sites like this one, and there are probably other authors whose works have been dissected in a similar manner as well. While I'm sure it's flattering, it must actually suck for the authors. I know that I would be hampered in my writing if I knew that a rabid fan base was going over every chapter with a fine-toothed comb, collating their data, and exposing each and every flaw. :eek:

[Melifeather]

Good call about sending Tybald to the wall.

This is would allow GRRM to have a maester at the wall despite the fact that he doesn’t have Sam. (With a five year gap, Sam could conceivably have travelled to Oldtown, levelled up, and gotten back before the waste hit the fan at the Wall. This is now no longer possible. Hence: new maester. Nice save, GRRM.)

@Mel, post #385: I would be very surprised if there was a maester from the Dreadfort at Winterfell. But I’m happy to be proved wrong. I’m half a planet from my books myself, so could please look that up?

I've been scanning the Theon/Reek/Turncloak PoV's in aDwD, but I think the passage I want is in aCoK's because when exactly did Theon know Arnolf Karstark was with Bolton?

The best I can determine where I noticed this passage was sometime around the battle of Duskindale after the Karstarks aligned with Bolton. I thought the PoV character was Theon, but it could have been Arya or even Jaime.

[Melifeather]

Justin Massey could take Maester Tybald with him, along with "Arya". I know Stannis doesn't mention this, when he tells Justin, "Oh, and take the Stark girl with you. Deliver her to Lord Commander Snow on your way to Eastwatch." Stannis tapped the parchment that lay before him. "A true king pays his debts."

But it could still happen. Jon does need more maesters, maybe Tybald is the first, of many to go to the Wall. Cassel Black is in dire need of a maester, at this current time. Justin Massey seemed to be leaving right then, maybe Stannis decides to send Tybald, a day or so after Justin leaves. It would only take one or two men to take Tybald, and catch up to Justin. Then that one or two men would only be gone for a few days, I think Stannis could afford that, because Justin would be taking Tybald for the bulk of the travel to the Wall.

Yes, the logistics do sound handy, however prisoners require heavier manpower than Massey and Jeyne/Arya. Speed is of the essence for Massey. He's to get Jeyne/Arya to the Wall as soon as possible and continue on. And maybe the fact that Stannis doesn't think to send Tybald to the Wall tells us two things: 1) Arnolf Karstark doesn't know that Stannis knows he's about to betray him, so Stannis cannot reveal himself by sending Tybald with Massey. 2) Stannis wants Massey to leave without detection and as quickly as possible.

[Grail King]

I don't think Arya would impose an unwanted mercy killing on anyone. If Jeyne asked her, or if she came upon her in the act of attempting suicide, that might be different, but I can't see Arya deciding for Jeyne that her life had been too hard and wouldn't get better--all her training has been about keeping her from making those sorts of judgments on her own.

I could see Sansa wanting to kill Jeyne for an instant if she finds out, but their old friendship would probably trump that impulse. And it's greatly in LF's interests to make certain that they never do meet. Jon Snow might be inclined to want to kill a false Arya, but I think before he did, he'd find out as much as he could about what she was doing and for whom, and probably this would take the edge off of any ill will towards Jeyne.

I can not see any Stark offing Jeyne especially Sansa they were BFF and Jeyne was in the room with her both clutching each other for comfort add to this that Sansa knows what KL people are like would really be PO on who ever did Jeyne these horrific deeds.

And we know who it was but Sansa needs to find out.

[Ghost714]

Yes, the logistics do sound handy, however prisoners require heavier manpower than Massey and Jeyne/Arya. Speed is of the essence for Massey. He's to get Jeyne/Arya to the Wall as soon as possible and continue on. And maybe the fact that Stannis doesn't think to send Tybald to the Wall tells us two things: 1) Arnolf Karstark doesn't know that Stannis knows he's about to betray him, so Stannis cannot reveal himself by sending Tybald with Massey. 2) Stannis wants Massey to leave without detection and as quickly as possible.

I understand prisoners require more man power than just Justin Massey, however it's not just Justin Massey taking "Arya" to the Wall.

I'm referring to this quote from Stannis,

"Lady Arya should have a female companion as well.  Take Alysane Mormont."

Alysane and Justin can surely handle Maester Tybald, if need be. I'm not saying this will happen, I am just saying its possible, should Stannis decide that Tybald should go to the Wall.

You said,

And maybe the fact that Stannis doesn't think to send Tybald to the Wall tells us two things: 1) Arnolf Karstark doesn't know that Stannis knows he's about to betray him, so Stannis cannot reveal himself by sending Tybald with Massey. 2) Stannis wants Massey to leave without detection and as quickly as possible.

I don't understand your two points. Arnolf Karstark was detained in the gift chapter, right after Stannis gives his orders to Massey. In my scenario of how Tybald gets to the Wall, Stannis sends Tybald after Justin has left. So Arnolf Karstark would surely know at this point, that Stannis knows Arnolf was planning to turn his cloak. Because Stannis called in Arnolf and his sons, and then "detained" them, we saw this happen??? So I don't understand your first point, in regards to why Stannis might not have sent Tybald to the Wall. Your second point was, maybe "Stannis wants Massey to leave without detection and as quickly as possible."

But again in my scenario of how Tybald gets to the Wall, Massey has left already. So Stannis sends one or two men to take Tybald, and then catch up to Massey. Then Stannis would only have to spare a man or two, for a day or two. Because Massey and Mormont would be taking Tybald and "Arya" for the majority of the trip to the Wall.

So in my scenario, if it were to happen, your points would not hinder it at all.

[Ghost714]

I've been scanning the Theon/Reek/Turncloak PoV's in aDwD, but I think the passage I want is in aCoK's because when exactly did Theon know Arnolf Karstark was with Bolton?

The best I can determine where I noticed this passage was sometime around the battle of Duskindale after the Karstarks aligned with Bolton. I thought the PoV character was Theon, but it could have been Arya or even Jaime.

In the new "gift" chapter, through Theon's POV we are inside his head, and we the readers get to read what he is thinking. So as to your question, of when Theon first knew Arnolf Karstark was with Bolton, it was the very first Reek chapter in ADwD. I'm also referring to this quote from the new "gift" chapter.

"Bent and twisted, the castellan of Karhold leaned heavily on his cane as he made his way to the table.  Lord Arnolf's cloak was fine grey wool, bordered in black sable and clasped with a silver starburst.  A rich garment, Theon thought, on a poor excuse for a man.  He had seen that cloak before, he knew, just as he had seen the man who wore it.  At the Dreadfort.  I remember.  He sat and supped with Lord Ramsay and Whoresbane Umber, the night they brought Reek up from his cell."