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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3


Angalin

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Nah, I remain unmoved.

If we replace Dreadfort by Karhold, then entire exchange is completely unremarkable and requires no explanation at all. Instead, as published, it requires some explanation about Maesters being loaned across allegiances and Karhold men not recognising their own Maester.

GRRM making a mistake is the simplest explanation to me. (Stuff like that happens. Asha had Lady Bolton captive when he Ironborn chapters of Feast for Crows were pre-published in Dragon Magazine.)

I would bet anything that GRRM did not make a mistake, and that when that Theon chapter is actually published, it will still be a Maester from the Dredfort.

When Stannis says, "You are maester at the Dreadfort.  How is it you are here with us?"

If you switch that to, "You are maester at Karhold. How is it you are here with us?"

The question would not make sense because it is not uncommon for a Maester to travel with an "army". Stannis wouldn't think, how is it your here if it was a Karhold army.

Maester Aemon would have gone with the Old Bear on his Ranging, but he was to old, that's why they sent Sam. Because someone needed to tend to the Ravens.

Also when Stannis says, "You are maester at the Dreadfort.  How is it you are here with us?"...... It's not like that is the only time the Dreadfort is mentioned. If that was the case I could maybe see more to the argument that GRRM made a mistake the one time he said Dreadfort. But he says the Dreadfort multiple times, GRRM would have caught the mistake after saying it a few times.

And again when you Switch Dreadfort to Karhold it doesn't make sence, because someone would know why a Karstark Maester would be with Karstark men. Stannis is trying to point out that he knows he is from the Dreadfort, to intemadate him. He is slowly letting the Maester know he is screwed, because Stannis knows he is not a Karhold Maester. Thus making the Maester get nervous, and letting him know that he is walking on thin ice, so he better answer all Stannis's questions truthfully, because Stannis obviously already knows more then the Maester would have thought him to know.

Seriously how can anyone not understand this .

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I would bet anything that GRRM did not make a mistake, and that when that Theon chapter is actually published, it will still be a Maester from the Dredfort.

When Stannis says, "You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?"

If you switch that to, "You are maester at Karhold. How is it you are here with us?"

The question would not make sense because it is not uncommon for a Maester to travel with an "army". Stannis wouldn't think, how is it your here if it was a Karhold army.

Maester Aemon would have gone with the Old Bear on his Ranging, but he was to old, that's why they sent Sam. Because someone needed to tend to the Ravens.

Also when Stannis says, "You are maester at the Dreadfort. How is it you are here with us?"...... It's not like that is the only time the Dreadfort is mentioned. If that was the case I could maybe see more to the argument that GRRM made a mistake the one time he said Dreadfort. But he says the Dreadfort multiple times, GRRM would have caught the mistake after saying it a few times.

And again when you Switch Dreadfort to Karhold it doesn't make sence, because someone would know why a Karstark Maester would be with Karstark men. Stannis is trying to point out that he knows he is from the Dreadfort, to intemadate him. He is slowly letting the Maester know he is screwed, because Stannis knows he is not a Karhold Maester. Thus making the Maester get nervous, and letting him know that he is walking on thin ice, so he better answer all Stannis's questions truthfully, because Stannis obviously already knows more then the Maester would have thought him to know.

Seriously how can anyone not understand this .

Happy Ent is being a troll.

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Yes Karstark "declared" for Stannis, but they only did that because they were really on the Boltons side, they were planning on tricking Stannis into a trap . When Stannis attacked Bolton, Karstark was going to stab Stannis in the back. SO IT WOULD MAKE SENCE THAT A MAESTER FROM THE DREADFORT, IS WITH KARSTARK, BECAUSE KARSTARK IS IN BED WITH BOLTON. Roose knew the whole time that Karstark was with Bolton and not Stannis.

We are told twice about Karstark meeting Roose at the Dreadfort. First in ADwD, in the first Reek chapter, then again, in the New "gift" chapter.

That's when Roose probably gave his Maester to Karstark. I imagine he gave Karstark his Maester, either because Karhold doesn't have one, or because Roose trusted his Maester to stay loyal to Him, opposed to a Karstark Maester. A Dreadfort Maester would know not to screw up, because they would know first hand what Roose is capable of. And a Karstark Maester would not have that same fear of screwing up.

Why is it so hard for people to fill in these blanks?? 2+2=4

Here is a quote from the "gift" chapter.

Behind him, the door opened. The Karstarks had arrived.

Bent and twisted, the castellan of Karhold leaned heavily on his cane as he made his way to the table. Lord Arnolf's cloak was fine grey wool, bordered in black sable and clasped with a silver starburst. A rich garment, Theon thought, on a poor excuse for a man. He had seen that cloak before, he knew, just as he had seen the man who wore it. At the Dreadfort. I remember. He sat and supped with Lord Ramsay and Whoresbane Umber, the night they brought Reek up from his cell.

How can anyone think... Oh boy what's a Bolton Maester doing with Karstark, because Karstark declared for Stannis, why would Roose give them his Maester???? BECASE KARHOLD ONLY PRETENDED TO DECLARE FOR STANNIS, but was really in bed with Bolton the whole time.

For those of you who think GRRM made a mistake, because it would be to obvious thag Arnolf Karstark turned his Cloak had they had a Dreadfort Maester with them... Stannis only knew that it was a Dreadfort Maester because of Jon's warning. It's not like everyone knows every Maester by sight.

You are forgeting how would stannis know that he is a Dreadfort Maester? Jon would not have know this. So how does Stannis know this? Also if he was from the Dreadfort wouldnt he have tried to lie at first and say he was from karhold. Seems to me that he had to know that this would be not good to be from the Dreadfort and be in stannis camp. Doesnt make much sinces. Some how Stannis just knows he is from the Dreadfort. Also no one is argueing why roose would give his maester to Karstark. So argueing that point dosnt make any cents. The question would be why Karstark would bring a dreadfort Maester with him. A typeo would be the most likely for this because it is a sample chapter and never been edited. Also we have seen alot of mistakes in GRRMs work. So a typeo is not that big a deal.
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What the hell is the "old sigil" of three spirals?

It was an ancient house according to Theon so that made me think the Masseys are First Men descendants (why else use the word ancient, and point it out to the reader?), as one of the few First Men houses that remained in the south.

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The reason why the dreadfort maester is with the Karstarks is clear. Roose wants to be sure the Karstarks are truly on his side and maybe there's a problem with the Karhold Maester in that he's on the side of Alys Karstark. But there's a big BUT here. Why does no Northern Lord recognize the Maester as the one from the Dreadfort. Maesters seem to stay around a long time (Several decades) at their "post", right? They are also the advisors and science guys, so it's highly probable that the Lords meet them when they visit. There are several Northern Lords (and Ladies) in Stannis camp, right? A Flint and another "Clan" guy, a Mormont for sure (she interacts with Asha), maybe a Glover? I don't have the whole list, but it just seems like an incredible risk Arnolf Karstark is taking being discovered. Because there's really no way to explain why the Dreadfort Maester is with him.

And then there's also the problem with the Karstark Soldiers. They say they know nothing of the plot, but no one cared to ask where the new Maester is coming from? They at least had to know. Are they lying? Bad Omen.

In the end, it's a minor plot point. If GRRM writes so, this way it happened. One way or the other, it really doesn't change anything ;)

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Ghost, Melisandra, welcome to the board and all that, but you need to check your attitudes outside.

For laughs, and only to disprove Ghost’s idea that GRRM cannot err twice, on the internets I found Arms of the Kraken (Dragon magazine #305) containing the Iron Island “prologue” (which turned into full chapters in Feast when the book was published). Asha has brought Lady Bolton(!) to the Islands.

"To end this war, before this war ends us. We have won all that we are like to win... and will lose all just as quick, unless we make a peace. I have shown Lady Bolton every courtesy, and she swears her lord will treat with me. If we yield Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore between there and Flint's Finger. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together. An exchange of hostages to seal the pact, and each side agrees to make common cause with the other should the Iron Throne-"

Victarion chuckled. "This Lady Bolton plays you for a fool, niece. Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are ours... as are Deepwood, Moat Cailin, and all the rest. Winterfell is burnt and broken, and the Young Wolf rots headless in the earth. We will have all the north, as your ford father dreamed."

--

The exchange “You are Maester at the Whatever. How is it you are here with us.” is inconclusive, two different explanations are apparent. But Maester Tybald’s answer makes more sense if he’s from Karhold. The question he answers is “Why are you here, at not at the castle?”.

Imagine instead the other interpretation:

“You’re Maester at the Dreadfort, sworn to serve our enemy! How come you’re here?”

“Oh, it’s because I’m to tend to the wounded Karhold soldiers…”

That makes little sense to me. If anything, his answer makes it even more mysterious why he’s here. (Whereas his answer is completely consistent with the other interpretation: Why are you here rather than at home?)

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I'm sorry, Happy Ent, for calling you a troll. It just seemed like you were being stubborn about listening to what seems logical to me and others in this post regarding the Dreadfort's Maester acting as spy. It seems obvious that he's there with the Karholds because Bolton is relying on him to send information from inside Stannis's camp. I believe Stannis is stating the obvious. He already knows the answer and this is actually an accusation.

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I'm sorry, Happy Ent, for calling you a troll. It just seemed like you were being stubborn about listening to what seems logical to me and others in this post regarding the Dreadfort's Maester acting as spy. It seems obvious that he's there with the Karholds because Bolton is relying on him to send information from inside Stannis's camp. I believe Stannis is stating the obvious. He already knows the answer and this is actually an accusation.

Why is it then when he is asked if he is from the dreadfort he doesnt freak out? If i was from there talking to the guy that my lord was at war with I would have freaked out then. but not this guy, He should have pissed him self there. But he didnt, only when he is asked where his ravens fly to. He would have know he was in trouble as soon as stannis asked him if he was from the dreadfort.
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Why is it then when he is asked if he is from the dreadfort he doesnt freak out? If i was from there talking to the guy that my lord was at war with I would have freaked out then. but not this guy, He should have pissed him self there. But he didnt, only when he is asked where his ravens fly to. He would have know he was in trouble as soon as stannis asked him if he was from the dreadfort.

I think he was freaking out as soon as he came in. It states he sank to his knees, and that his eyes kept flitting to look at Theon. Later, after Stannis asks him about where the two crows were trained to fly to, he hesitates. During that silence Theon kicks his feet, presumably in devilish glee because he thinks to himself, "caught!". Stannis next demands to know if the two crows would fly home to the Dreadfort or Winterfell.

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I'm wondering if GRRM will take this opportunity to kill Theon and thin the playing field a bit.

I doubt it. Seems like he's building up to something more than just a mere execution here.

Another thing is that Ramsay thinks Theon is going to the wall along with "Arya". Considering the conditions out there, it'd be hard to think they were making for the wall without specific knowledge of their purpose ("Arya is headed for the wall we learn).

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In any case, we’ll know soon enough.

I guess honour requires I take up Ghost741’s offer in #281 for a bet.

Any good suggestions for the stakes?

I’ll use a chainsaw for an avatar for one full month if I lose?

Ha ha lol sounds good.

If I lose I can declare the supreme knowledge of Happy Ent for one month.... I actually just emailed GRRM to ask him if it was a mistake or not...... But I have not the foggiest idea if he will respond or not lol

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In any case, we’ll know soon enough.

I guess honour requires I take up Ghost741’s offer in #281 for a bet.

Any good suggestions for the stakes?

I’ll use a chainsaw for an avatar for one full month if I lose?

That would be painful for you.

And I have to respectfully disagree. Having the Bolton's maester with him was the proof of Karstark's duplicity. It was an indication that before meeting up with Stannis, Karstark meet up with Bolton. Roose sent along the maester to handle communication back to Winterfel.

Yes, the Karhold men would know that he wasn't their maester, but Arnolf doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that mingles with his men like Ned used to. Would the men have questioned who their "lord" brought into their camp.

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I think the missing thing here is that no one in the host was supposed to know that Karstark's maester was the Dreadfort maester. When Stannis confronts him the scene seems to say that everyone has known the entire time and has just accepted it. The things that are definitely missing are how Stannis found this out and why exactly Karstark would bring the Dreadfort maester instead of his own. None of these questions are answered in the text, so it gives the impression that GRRM has either glossed over important information or made a mistake.

Maybe the Dreadfort maester earned his link in cartography and the Karhold maester didn't. I'm only half-joking, as that would actually be a pretty good explanation.

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Why is it then when he is asked if he is from the dreadfort he doesnt freak out? If i was from there talking to the guy that my lord was at war with I would have freaked out then. but not this guy, He should have pissed him self there. But he didnt, only when he is asked where his ravens fly to.

Yeah, that last part is why I'm inclined to agree that there's some mistake here. If Stannis has already established that Tybalt is Bolton's man, then there's no need to ask about the ravens. But Stannis's delivery, and the maester's reaction, makes it seem like the raven question is the "gotcha", specifically the last part: "Or might they fly for Winterfell instead?" If the other choice is the Dreadfort, that's not much of a "gotcha"; they're both equally bad. It makes more sense to me if Dreadfort is replaced by Karhold in both cases. Oh well, we're never going to resolve it on a message board.

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The dead mother wolf was a symbol, a forewarning of the death of the Stark children's parents, Ned and Cat. And just like the pups, Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are separated from, not only their parents, but also each other. And Rickon is the one that went to Skagos with Osha.
Not trying to be a smart ass but the Mother Dire Wolf is not a symbol, it is an actual dire wolf that got south of the wall where they havn't been seen in 200 years, how did it get there? I agree that it was meant to be a warning. The reaon I'm bringing up the story Davos heard on Sisterton about Jons mother is that it has to be going somewhere, why would the author introduce it. It could be there to mislead the reader or it could be true, Ned could have had a child with a fishwife but it isn't Jon. Could be used as a device to make people start asking questions about Jons parentage. The reason I would put this other bastard on Skagoos is that Rickon would need someone to take care of him, he's 5. Osha might be dead, in ASOS the second time Arya meets the dwarf woman she mentions a wolf crying out in the wilderness and nobody heard him. Bran was never alone, Jons wolf doesn't make a sound and Robb was still alive surrounded by his men, she used the masculine term so it can't be the girls. It is not much to go on but I always thought that maybe Osha was dead and Rickon was on his own, and why would she take him to Skagoos? Did she know he had family there? Its as good as saying she knew people there, its all speculation anyway.
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Not trying to be a smart ass but the Mother Dire Wolf is not a symbol, it is an actual dire wolf that got south of the wall where they havn't been seen in 200 years, how did it get there? I agree that it was meant to be a warning. The reaon I'm bringing up the story Davos heard on Sisterton about Jons mother is that it has to be going somewhere, why would the author introduce it. It could be there to mislead the reader or it could be true, Ned could have had a child with a fishwife but it isn't Jon. Could be used as a device to make people start asking questions about Jons parentage. The reason I would put this other bastard on Skagoos is that Rickon would need someone to take care of him, he's 5. Osha might be dead, in ASOS the second time Arya meets the dwarf woman she mentions a wolf crying out in the wilderness and nobody heard him. Bran was never alone, Jons wolf doesn't make a sound and Robb was still alive surrounded by his men, she used the masculine term so it can't be the girls. It is not much to go on but I always thought that maybe Osha was dead and Rickon was on his own, and why would she take him to Skagoos? Did she know he had family there? Its as good as saying she knew people there, its all speculation anyway.

You do kinda sound like a smart ass, but that's OK. =) LOL

I think the whole dead direwolf scene is full of symbolism. Actually, the whole series of books are full of symbolism! There's an over riding storyline going on above the literal words. If you aren't interested in that sort of thing, you're not going to understand.

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Yeah, that last part is why I'm inclined to agree that there's some mistake here. If Stannis has already established that Tybalt is Bolton's man, then there's no need to ask about the ravens. But Stannis's delivery, and the maester's reaction, makes it seem like the raven question is the "gotcha", specifically the last part: "Or might they fly for Winterfell instead?" If the other choice is the Dreadfort, that's not much of a "gotcha"; they're both equally bad. It makes more sense to me if Dreadfort is replaced by Karhold in both cases. Oh well, we're never going to resolve it on a message board.

You actually have the answer, but you're muddying it up with other stuff! It's like reading a story problem over and over until it makes absolutely no sense! lol

Like I've said before, Stannis wasn't asking any questions. His questions were actually accusations. Tybalt was afraid. The Theon chapter describes him as falling to his knees and that his eyes kept flitting up towards Theon. When Stannis asked where the two remaining crows were trained to fly, Dreadfort or Winterfell, then he did piss himself, because he was then sure that Stannis knew he was a spy.

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