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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 3


Angalin

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These are not the ravens you’re looking for.

ROTFL. I believe I can imagine how you guys must feel with this flood of new users (mostly thanks to a TV series), who consider themselves experts and often start new topics on subjects that were probably discussed here years ago. Mind you, some of us will even stay here for good.

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Can you please explain that point again because I really wasnt getting what you were saying. Is your point that Karstark was not alord? Thats what I got out of it but I could be wrong.

If that's all you got from it then you didn't, and still haven't read the second half of the post. Either that, or this is your second time trying to get around arguing against the second part of the post. It's ok....classic deflection is used by a lot of people who want to get out of answering to something, not just you.

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Now, let me tell you about “Varys planted Shae.”

Can't wait. Seems like I wouldn't wanna miss it. BTW I wonder if every forum works that way, I've got quite a similar situation on a forum I like to call my 'home forum', here in my home country, where we tease new users with questions about virginity of a certain well known female character. And my forum will only be ten years old this September.
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Can't wait. Seems like I wouldn't wanna miss it. BTW I wonder if every forum works that way, I've got quite a similar situation on a forum I like to call my 'home forum', here in my home country, where we tease new users with questions about virginity of a certain well known female character. And my forum will only be ten years old this September.

Soooo....that's what you call it? Teasing? lol

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Loved this chapter and I thought one of the best bits was mors umber and his green boys.Now at this stage it has definitively been established that the umbers are ferocious,obsessed about getting revenge (see mors wanting to drink from mances skull) and are certainly not without some low cunning.

Whorebane saw through Theons pitiful appearance in the dreadfort and instantly realised who he was.Mors remembered the names of common folk who worked in winterfell such as the cook and the smith.Some lords would barely remember the name of there own cook.Despite commanding the very last dregs of his Houses available troops Crowfood still managed to kill the opposing general of an enemy army.Bolton does not underestimate them and neither should we.

But what is the umbers plan.Obviously Whorebane marched with the boltons in order to preserve the greatjons life and possibly to see if he could turn his cloak at an opportune time. I,m not sure exactly why mors decided to risk the green boys or what is essentially the future of his house by suicidely sitting outside a almost impregnable fortress with a much bigger, better equipped veteran army camped within.His stake trap was clever but besides stalling the freys for a short time what more could he have hoped to achieve?

After getting his hands on arya the logical option would have been to get to Stannis as fast as possible.Theon said that all the umber troops died at the red wedding and that all that remains is greybeards and green boys.I remember in one of the earlier books it was mentioned that the greatjon had taken so many men south that crops were rotting in the fields so theon may be right.On the other hand is it possible that the umbers do have some reserve troops stashed somewhere?Is manderlys fleet partly made up of umbers as rodrik cassel ordered?.Are the umbers inside winterfell communicating somehow with crowfood and planning a coup?.They must have some plan surely are does their crazy courage result in all their heads decorating winterfalls walls.

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Folks, you are going to be involved in hundreds of these arguments over the next few thousand posts you will write on this forum. We’re all friends here, and would like to remain so.

Displays of condescension and exasperation have no place here. Stop it.

Wouldn't it be condescending to tell someone their post was an "incredibly lazy arguement"? I feel it is.

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Yes of course GRRM is capable of making an error in a sample chapter (or even in a chapter of a released book, if his editors don't catch it, which occasionally they don't).

I'm getting a feeling of frustration too, that some not only don't understand what a terrible mistake it would be to bring a maester of the Boltons to the rendez-vous with Stannis' forces, but that the ones pointing out the logical flaws in this are even being called trolls!

I believe Roose sent his Maester for two reasons: 1) he doesn't totally trust the Karstarks. 2) he wants Stannis's location. Actually I'm adding a third, 3) Roose Bolton's people will obey even when scared piss-less.

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I believe Roose sent his Maester for two reasons: 1) he doesn't totally trust the Karstarks. 2) he wants Stannis's location. Actually I'm adding a third, 3) Roose Bolton's people will obey even when scared piss-less.

On your point 1 What is the Maester going to do if the Karstarks do turn on Bolton?
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On your point 1 What is the Maester going to do if the Karstarks do turn on Bolton?

He would hopefully get the chance to report that or perhaps Roose has a Karstark hostage. In any case, Roose must have weighed the importance of receiving trust worthy, accurate intel against the life of his Maester and decided it was well worth the risk.

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OK, im beginning to see the bigger picture... there's no way out of this discussion, nobody has sufficient arguments to either prove his own or disprove the other's theory. We need GRRM to fix that mistake or acknowledge the truth of it. It's hard, bc I have my personal POV, but I understand others don't see it this way.

I wonder if those same people would also accept it if Karstark had brought Walton Steelshanks (the veteran sergeant of the Boltons, introduced to us in Jaime chapters) with him?

You shouldn't write such a 'witty' post without checking first, I think your comparison is way off.

A maester serves the house he is appointed to, so if Karstark says "he's with me" in a big host like stannis', with many people that aren't familiar with the north let alone the Boltons, not many people will argue with this.

It's this supposed neutrality (they only serve their appointed house, no loyalty, ambition, heirs etc.) which allows maesters to go under the radar. Let me put it this way, a maester can't be a turncloak, because he doesn't have a cloak. The way this maester is beeing used, or actually abused/misused by the Boltons is in fact a very vile and treacherous thing (like other stuff that seem 'naive' to us, like salt & bread, trial by combat etc.)

There's the example of maester Luwin who serves Theon when he has captured winterfell and Pycelle, in a sense, bc he is in fact NOT neutral and loyal to the Lannisters, it's a big aspect of the KL politics.

Like somebody said; the rewards for the Boltons far outweigh the risks of the maester getting caught.

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The argument that GRRM will have to "fix" the Theon chapter because not everyone has the same understanding is not a valid reason to "fix" it. With this logic you'd have to say that the majority have reached a consensus of agreement on all the previous PoV's in all the books, and I would have to say this forum begs to differ otherwise! I'd be curious to know if there are any other forums on the internet that discuss a book or series of books this thoroughly?

The attraction of aSoIaF series is the grand scope and epic nature that challenges the reader. These books could never be accused of being dumbed down for audiences, for example like "The Bridges of Madison County" once was.

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The argument that GRRM will have to "fix" the Theon chapter because not everyone has the same understanding is not a valid reason to "fix" it. With this logic you'd have to say that the majority have reached a consensus of agreement on all the previous PoV's in all the books, and I would have to say this forum begs to differ otherwise! I'd be curious to know if there are any other forums on the internet that discuss a book or series of books this thoroughly?

The attraction of aSoIaF series is the grand scope and epic nature that challenges the reader. These books could never be accused of being dumbed down for audiences, for example like "The Bridges of Madison County" once was.

No one has said it needs to be dumbed down and easyer to read. I can accept yalls argument for why he was with the Karstarks. But I dont think I will have too. GRRM likes to dot all the eyes and cross all the Tees. When this chapter gets in the main book it will be "Fixed". Either we will get info why Tybal was travaling with them or that he was from Karhold. I would bet anything that this chapter does not go into TWOW as is. Thats just how GRRM is, He likes to rewrite it, then rewrite it again. Thats why it takes so long for his books to come out. Because he likes everything to be just right. If you dont take my word for it, Find a couple of the other sample chapter from past books and compare them to the ones in the book. There are many changes in them. Its not a case of him dumbing it down, Its him making it better for us.
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OK...so, other than our split on the significance of Maester Tybald being with the Karstarks...what else should we have noticed? Here is something new we can discuss:

"Just now, the turncloak is more use to me alive. He has knowledge we may need. Bring in this maester." The king plucked a parchment off the table and squinted over it. A letter, Theon knew. Its broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. I know what that says, he thought, giggling."

If the letter had a broken seal of black wax (indicating from the Wall) why would Theon know what it says?

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OK...so, other than our split on the significance of Maester Tybald being with the Karstarks...what else should we have noticed? Here is something new we can discuss:

"Just now, the turncloak is more use to me alive. He has knowledge we may need. Bring in this maester." The king plucked a parchment off the table and squinted over it. A letter, Theon knew. Its broken seal was black wax, hard and shiny. I know what that says, he thought, giggling."

If the letter had a broken seal of black wax (indicating from the Wall) why would Theon know what it says?

Maybe Theon was not commenting on the letters contents. He may have been refering to the seal of black wax only. His comment might just mean that he knows Stannis received a letter from the Wall, or that the seal was broken before the letter reached Stannis.

It is just as possible that Stannis already questioned Theon regarding Karstark's treachery (hence his comment regarding Theon's knowledge), and Theon just connected Stannis' knowledge to the letter. Alys Karstark told Jon of her uncle's plans, but I don't think she mentioned a maester. Theon met the maester at the Dreadfort. It is possible that Theon saw the maester in camp when he was brought to Stannis, and mentioned this fact when Stannis interrogated him about a possible connection between Karstark and the Boltons.

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Theon becomes aware of where he is when Stannis was talking to the banker. After the banker leaves then Lord Wull requests an audience, but Stannis puts him off in favor of the Maester. That is when Theon notices the letter with the broken black seal. I just think its odd that "he knows" instead of "he thinks he knows". How could he know that Jon was warning Stannis about the Karstarks?

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