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The False Sun- Bakker


Calibandar

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magic artifacts are going to be huge in the next book, we already have Mimara equipped with Sting and a mithril coat, now there's a satellite array of mirrors that can bring the sun to anywhere?

I'm going to hypothesize that Emilidilis is alive and kicking and responsible for any nonmen who have stayed intact via mihtrilic means.

Also it only seems that Ishroi keep growing, not Quya. and I wonder if that ability ended with the gaining of immortality. It would also suggest how Akka might recognize the murals of Cil Aujus, if certain Ishroi were of different sizes (and Cujara Cinmoi the biggest of all the quya ishroi).

Anyone able to pinpoint where Viri is based on the text? I was initially thinking that it's where Tryse was, but I think they're away from there... I think even more that Siol is where Kellhus met Mek/Cet.

Isn't it even more interesting that Mek doesn't kill Kellhus? or try to capture him? What is up with that?

Gin'yursis is mentioned here, that's the name of the nonman that became the wight in the mountain, btw.

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Human males' growth plates don't close until age 24. But you're lucky to get another inch between when your growth spurt ends and when the growth plates close. I imagine it's something similar. Nonmen's growth plates never close. High-levels of stress hormones or whatever, their body reacts by increasing growth factor and making them get a tad bigger. Someone like Ciogli who's constantly fighting and doing deeds with reactive stress hormones being released, is also slowly growing bigger and bigger.

The heroism of the deed is probably irrelevant, only the stress matters.

I hope that 's the real explanation. It makes it seem much less ridiculous.

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It makes me want to go back to the "you betrayed..." line that he points at Nil'Giccas/Cleric. Did he betray the Non-men by leaving Ishterebinth and going Incariol off on his own?

No, I think it refers to Nil'giccas learning the truth - that Nonmen are damned, and not telling his people. Gin'yursis didnt' die until the First Apocalypse, thousands of years after Nil'giccas learned that Nonmen are damned. And he didn't tell any of them.

I figured they already knew, but were damned anyway since they didn't worship the gods. Their disbelief already created unavoidable damnation.

But didn't the humans create the damnation of the Nonmen by outbreeding them and empowering the Hundred Gods? i.e., didn't the humans believing in them make them real?

The Nonmen believed that by not-worshiping gods, they would be irrelevant to Ciphrang and fall into Oblivion. Their lack of believing isn't what damns them. Belief in the Gods is not a good deed i.e. sin exists independent of the God. Their lifestyle choices are what damn them.

That is to say, pretend a person is a leaf. Sin makes you very green. Ciphrang (and Gods) are catepillars. They are attracted to you by your nature, but they are not the cause of your nature.

There's no indication belief has anything to do with population-size. Human belief has nothing to do with damnation. Consider The Tusk and the Witness of Fane as shitty scientific documents trying to measure and catalog the scope of sin, but being inaccurate due to limitations in technology and poor scientific rigor.

edit: http://i.imgur.com/D5WYt.png I made a little diagram to explain my understanding of sin in bakkerverse.

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No, I think it refers to Nil'giccas learning the truth - that Nonmen are damned, and not telling his people. Gin'yursis didnt' die until the First Apocalypse, thousands of years after Nil'giccas learned that Nonmen are damned. And he didn't tell any of them.

I can certainly understand how that might piss him off.

ETA: I totally want a Diurnal now. That artifact is still buried there, right?

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That makes sense especially in the context since Gin'yursis is dead and in Hell, more or less.

There's a chance, albeit small, he stopped sharing the beliefs of his race and went another way

I'm trying to find a reason against the idea that the Inchoroi are right but am having trouble.

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3. Big, "crocodilian" jaws that contain the "second head". I'm almost getting Alien Queen vibes with the shape of its head.

This story made me realise that all through the series, I've been getting Alien/Geigeresque vibes. The phallic imagery and rape certainly helps, though it's a lot less metaphorical in Bakker, but the whole shebang has traces of it; the atmosphere of doom, the bioengingeering, and I've always got a certain twisted- like I say, Geigeresque- imagery from the Consult.

What solidified it was the description of the ark, which reminded me of the Space Jockey's ship... although I'm not sure it's actually supposed to look anything like it.

I wonder if there's any significance to the (probably really very tenuous) similarity between the Barricades, a wall made up of 'intervals', and the nonmen's/Titirga etc's worship of 'the spaces in between'. I found it curious that those were discussed in consecutive passages, though in a story of this length that could easily be a coincidence.

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Aurax is probably at-large in Earwa at that point in the timeline. Somebody had to slip the false revelation into the Tusk and help the Four Tribes of Eanna break the Gates of the Kayarsus, and it was presumably Aurax if Aurang was trapped inside the Ark.

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Lol, Jurble, I really enjoyed that diagram.

Trisk, the First Father could like an analogy of Adam. Or a mythic "first" sorcerer, if there is a Shamanic folklore in the ancient North magic tradition?

I definitely support Jurble's interpretation that Nil'giccas didn't tell the Nonmen the Consult "Truth." Though, despite this newest turn of ambiguity, I still think it's still a manner of perspective concerning the objectivity of things.

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Aurax is probably at-large in Earwa at that point in the timeline. Somebody had to slip the false revelation into the Tusk and help the Four Tribes of Eanna break the Gates of the Kayarsus, and it was presumably Aurax if Aurang was trapped inside the Ark.

No, Aurax is around:

It was just as Aurax had said. Truth becomes ignorance when Men make gods of Deceit.

He's probably with the rest of the Mangaecca inside Golgotterath trying to make the No-God. The High Round is empty, after all, except for Aurang and Shae and the one slave.

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Lol, Jurble, I really enjoyed that diagram.

Trisk, the First Father could like an analogy of Adam. Or a mythic "first" sorcerer, if there is a Shamanic folklore in the ancient North magic tradition?

I definitely support Jurble's interpretation that Nil'giccas didn't tell the Nonmen the Consult "Truth." Though, despite this newest turn of ambiguity, I still think it's still a manner of perspective concerning the objectivity of things.

I agree that this is probably what 'you betrayed' meant. however another, far more petty possibility does exist. Nil'Giccas gave humans copies of the Isuphyris. That could be seen as a betrayal. Possible continuity problem, Shae doesn't know the Isuphyris, the cunoinchoroi wars are shrouded in mystery for him, but humans had had the Isuphyris and Sauglish had five Umeri translations of it for 500 years at that point.
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He's probably with the rest of the Mangaecca inside Golgotterath trying to make the No-God. The High Round is empty, after all, except for Aurang and Shae and the one slave.

I don’t think that the construction of the No-God is on the agenda at that time.

The Inchoroi have fought countless wars for who knows how long against the Nonmen. Then they were isolated in the Ark for 1000 years, until Mek finally found a means to free them, just a few years before the short story.

I understand the No-God as a pretty late invention. He will walks 1000 years later and is destroyed by the Heron Spear. The Inchoroi were on Eärwa for millennia before the No-God, and the Consult existed for 1000 years before the No-God.

Now, I find it quite plausible that the idea of the No-God is a result of Shaeönanra’s ingenuity. It basically does two things: First, it mind-controls all the weapon races of the Inchroi (which have been around for millennia at that time, working according to their specifications, and quite without any No-God). That’s pretty useful in a war of extermination. Second, it stops the cycle of souls. I’m not quite clear about the significance of that.

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From the comments on his blog:

This might be a little out there, but as I’m studying a foreign language, we worked on the different aspects of verbs: perfective and imperfective. Because this relates to either the completion of the verb’s action, or focusing on its ongoing action, I thought of both the title ‘aspect emperor’, and the Dunyian philosophy of mastering that which comes before to control that which follows. Does the “Aspect” in Kellhus’ title refer to more than just the aspect or appearance of a face? Or do I just need to take a break from class and chill out?

‘Aspect’ refers to Inri Sejenus’s reinterpretation of the Gods as ‘aspects’ of the God.

I find that fascinating and no idea that Aspect Emperor as a title tied into the metaphysics of the series.
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Can someone explain to me what was happening in the secondary scene? I was really having difficulty following it... Sorry, just a little confused. I've read all of Bakker's books and I love the story but I don't know all of the timeline stuff and I don't remember which non men names are which. Was that Mekkeritrig?

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