The False Sun- Bakker

[Tears of Lys]

My reading the "spoiler" hasn't spoiled anything, really. From my perspective, the more information we get on what the hell's happening, the better. As I've said before, Bakker's somewhat... cryptic (?) can't think of the right word... in his writing, so getting some explanation can only help in understanding this extremely complicated and dense story.

[Kalbear]

Opaque is probably a better word.

[Sci-2]

One thing I noticed was the Voice pushing sorcerers to ignore their damnation. I wonder if magic-use has a physical addiction quality - at the least it ties in with the brilliant narrative on addiction we get in WLW.

[Gormenghast]

Larry's criticism looks like an expedient to me.

Without that awareness to serve as a proxy grounding point, this narrative feels much less like a full, complete narrative and more like an interesting fragment that, if placed within the context of a larger story, would be much more effective than by itself.

If placed? It IS. It's written nowhere that the short story is self contained and independent from the rest.

Would be? It is already.

[lokisnow]

Continuing to spin off the idea that The Ark is a drop ship and the Nail of Heaven is the mothership in geosynchronous orbit above the Ark provides a lot of potentially juicy ideas.

What if the No God has a lot to do with the Nail of Heaven? Perhaps the No God is the master AI of the ship system. Something about Earwa's metaphysics (whatever it is that allows sorcery) causes AI's to malfunction. (If Wutteat is an AI in a machine dragon, this disproves this). and the Inchoroi have only been able to use organic based genetic sciences since crash landing. The No God AI operationally gives them everything they need, but can't survive in Earwa's field in the same way that we can't survive in a vaccuum. Due to a quirk of Earwa, downloading the No God from the Nail to the Carapace harddrive caused the AI to become ensouled along the way. The Chorae are used to keep a 'vaccuum' around the No God that allows it to continue to exist, ala the ysalamiri negating the Force in Star Wars. But the Chorae also cut the ensouled AI off from the circuit of Watcher and watched. Because all souls are connected to that circuit (pinpricks of light right?) for the circuit to be interupted at any point causes the overall system to fail. Thus new life cannot be ensouled because the circuit is no longer connected because the No God in particular is cut off.

[Tears of Lys]

I love this idea, actually. I'm planning a massive reread of the entire series next, so I'll be on the lookout for anything about the Nail.

"Rape the warp core if you have to" - Honestly, Ent. :lol:

[themerchant]

Interesting details about the Nail of Heaven: The Nonman name for this thing is Imburil, The Newborn. It’s so bright that it casts Shaeönanra’s shadow. That’s pretty bright!

I don’t think that level of brightness has been mentioned the Second Apocalypse. (That proves nothing, of course. Nobody in Eärwa might find it remarkable, so it’s just never mentioned.)

But…

If the Nonmen really call it the Newborn, the “star” is an astronomial phenomenon in living Nonman memory. Just a few millennia old. Moreover, we have weak evidence that it was a lot brighter 3000 years ago than at the time of the Ikurei dynasty. Hence, it’s fading.

It could be a nearby nova.

But here’s a nicer theory: the Nail of Heaven is a side-effect of the Blessed Falling. It’s a dimensional portal or whatever Star Trek speak we want to use for it; the wormhole through which the Ark of the Skies arrived. Maybe we can even concoct some technobabble that makes it plausible that this wormhole opened exactly along the rotational axis of Eärwa. (Which is an observation that needs some kind of explanation in any case.)

McCoÿ: I’m gIving her all she’s got, captain.

Sil: Rape the warp core if you have to.

In a last, desperate gambit involving inverse tachyons, the Ark manages to overcome the gravitational pull, dropping out of warp exactly at the position calculated by Mr. Aurax. The jump destroys vital spaceship functions, Sülü barely manages to crash land the thing.

Pic of Ark breaking through hole.

Ark falling through atmosphere.

wouldn't it be Scotty? Born in my hometown in 2222?

Anyway I though supernova, but "wormhole" might work as well. I wonder if any other stars will appear or are appearing. I want more Inchies ot come, surely they didn't put all their pendulous phalli all in one jock strap? When watching Kellhus run from the skin spies in TWP Aurang thinks how soon the children will gather (i know he probably means the sranc etc, but i hope he means more inchies are on the way)

[themerchant]

On the engaging in battle point. Didn't they crash land, 2 got killed for looking dodgy, seduced Nin'janin (spelling wrong i know king of viri) then with only 2 casualities managed to gain the confidence of the non-men and infect them, which if it had worked they'd have killed off every non-man/woman for the loss of only 2. However only the women died and then pir pashal (again spelling sorry, the huge battle where CC lays his wifes body down and demands they come out and fight type of thing.) and they had to fight cause their plan didn't work.

I probably have it wrong, but my thinking is they tried to do it by stealth till they basically kicked the hornets nest and were forced to fight.

Of course this assumes they meant to kill everyone with the womb plague.

[Happy Ent]

wouldn't it be Scotty? Born in my hometown in 2222?

Oh. My. God.

This is the second nerdfail I’ve committed in just a few weeks. (I said “Jabberwocky” in another thread.)

I stand corrected and hang my crown in shame.

[polishgenius]

Just feel the need to point out that it's impossible to be anything in orbit; it's called the Nail because everything else in the sky rotates around it, which means that, as HE pointed out, it's smack on the rotational axis of Earwa, ie above the pole. A geosynchronous orbit would still only pass above that once a day; a geostationary one can only occur at the equator.

If it is a mothership, it's expending an awful lot of fuel to hold a fixed position.

[Calibandar]

First thought after the short story: he did it again.

First the lame death of Nil'Giccas in WLW, now all this build-up for Titurga, the greatest sorcerer known until that point in history, and he gets killed in such a mundane way. I just don't care for it, I know others won't mind but to me it's just a letdown. I just hope Scott doesn't have more of this in store for the fate of Kellhus for instance.

Otherwise, superb story and very, very interesting.

Bakker said:

‘Aspect’ refers to Inri Sejenus’s reinterpretation of the Gods as ‘aspects’ of the God.

I think this is critical to our understanding of Kellhus. I think we've been told already what he is like, Kellhus is like the God in small, or an Avatar of the One God. Remember the scene in TTT where people's souls are described and Kellhus' soul is described like a small Russian Doll version of the large version that is God, with the same shape.

Similarly, we have learned that the Hundred Gods are Aspects of the God. The God is also referred to as " The Million Souled" , and the Hundred represent parts of him, or something in that vein. Kellhus being Aspect Emperor then means he is all of these Aspects together. This ties in with him being a prophet of the God, if indeed he is one. Similarly, we are withheld any judgement from Mimara on whether he is damned, sofar. That may well because her seeing him would give the game away.

Madness

An ultimately important idea to take from the False Sun to me is Titirga. What does it mean, truly, that "He was certainly the most powerful Insinger ever born. And if what Cet’ingira said was true, the most powerful, period. No living Quya had the purity of his Recitations." What can Kellhus, but even mundane sorcerers, truly become? What's the limit of their power?

The example of Titurga seems to show that Nonmen are not necessarily stronger sorcerers than men, and that even in a time when the great Quya all lived, a man has the strongest inherent, most pure voice. This leaves open the possibility of Kellhus having attained such power in the age we are in now.

Curethan

Why is Earwa so special? Probably because its the centre of the universe. Just like most of our ancient thinkers believed Earth was.

Exactly. We have seen Scott comment in the interviews with Pat, Adam and Larry that the idea is "what if what the ancients believed was really true". What if damnation was real. That's a big part of the metaphysical idea. Part of that is also that the ancients believed that Earth was the centre of the universe; Earwa actually is the centre of the universe.

What the Nail of Heaven is though is still unclear to me.

Re: Why the Inchoroi fought if not dying should be their main or even sole priority.

Why do the Inchoroi continue to fight to this day? There's only two of them left, a truly immense devastation has been reaped on their race, and they have become very fragile. We hardly ever see them, partly because Bakker is being coy and keeping his cards to his chest, but also because revealing themselves is a tremendous danger. We're also told that over the centuries these two last Inchoroi Princes have lost much of the skills originally available to them.

So, either they continue to fight to save their own two souls, or there is something far larger at stake. Something that means that if their plans with the No-God work out, all those who have died get to live again, or get to transferred to Oblivion, or something else? That just feels more sensible to me, even taking into accounbt that the last two Inchoroi are selfish assholes.

[themerchant]

Cal, bad news. Kellhus at this moment is destined to get killed by the White Luck who's sword breaks and kills Kellhus, if my recollection of the WLW book is correct. I think he is standing thinking about the million steps between him having weird sex and the expressionless surprise on the aspect emperors face as the sword breaks, or something like that.

[Larry.]

Larry's criticism looks like an expedient to me.

Without that awareness to serve as a proxy grounding point, this narrative feels much less like a full, complete narrative and more like an interesting fragment that, if placed within the context of a larger story, would be much more effective than by itself.

If placed? It IS. It's written nowhere that the short story is self contained and independent from the rest.

Would be? It is already.

Your parsing of what I wrote is odd. I am just noting that separate from a larger text, it reads like a displaced scene. Such writings often depend upon a present framing structure to make those scenes more powerful than what they'd be when considered separate from the surroundings.

[Sci-2]

So, either they continue to fight to save their own two souls, or there is something far larger at stake. Something that means that if their plans with the No-God work out, all those who have died get to live again, or get to transferred to Oblivion, or something else? That just feels more sensible to me, even taking into accounbt that the last two Inchoroi are selfish assholes.

If the Wight can come back to the world, can the dead Inchies crawl back from Hell right as the Gates all shut?

ETA: "English, motherfucker, English!" - The Wire

[Curethan]

Just feel the need to point out that it's impossible to be anything in orbit; it's called the Nail because everything else in the sky rotates around it, which means that, as HE pointed out, it's smack on the rotational axis of Earwa, ie above the pole. A geosynchronous orbit would still only pass above that once a day; a geostationary one can only occur at the equator.

If it is a mothership, it's expending an awful lot of fuel to hold a fixed position.

Good point. But we don't know much about Earwa's astrophysics either - where are the poles, for example... does Earwa actually even orbit it's sun or does the sun orbit Earwa?

One thing that is very likely is that the inchies don't use combustive technologies for propulsion. They don't have chemical explosives or rockets. So we don't know if fuel would be an issue.

This atrocity tale implies the ark was a city torn from the ground of the inchie homeworld via the Tekne.

The no-god's carapace floats around and causes massive inertial turbulence (some type of antigravity?).

"Weapons of light" may or may not idicate laser technology. Perhaps a more 'mudane' or reductive method of focusing power than the ways as sorcerous cants like the loom of cirroi etc operate.

The fact the Nail that it is called "the Newborn" by the non-men in this story and seems to have been included as somehow holy in the Tusk scriptures does seem to link it to the inchies, thats all I can really say.

[Spring Bass]

I think the Ark used a rocket engine. Hence why we can see the Horns of Golgotterah, the "horns" being the engine bells.

[jurble]

I really want to know at what point sorcerers abandoned the idea of finding Oblivion. The Scarlet Spires seem to either refuse to accept the damnation of sorcerers (because their Ciphrang are liars) or accept that they were damned anyway (like Iyokus). The Mandate seem to believe they are all damned (though you lose your soul, you gain the world, or whatever they say).

So, pre-Kellhus, what was their motivation? I really don't understand why Seswatha just didn't go, "Hey, you have a point Shae." and switch sides.

[jurble]

But Seswatha's a smart guy. Sure saving the world and all the people that live in it sounds good on paper - but Seswatha understands damnation. Is he really such a nice guy that he would bear damnation for the sake of the world? (And going on from that, would Kellhus?) I don't see how someone who actually understands damnation would put the world before themselves.

[Kalbear]

I figured that the oblivion thing was something taught to them by nonmen and not particularly widely known or easy to do. By the time the first apocalypse hits, nonmen are either erratics or enemy #1 of men, they've entirely stopped tutelage of gnostic mages and the anagnosis probably doesn't have the math to understand. The nonmen could help the men, but why would they after all they've lost?

[Sci-2]

But Seswatha's a smart guy. Sure saving the world and all the people that live in it sounds good on paper - but Seswatha understands damnation. Is he really such a nice guy that he would bear damnation for the sake of the world? (And going on from that, would Kellhus?) I don't see how someone who actually understands damnation would put the world before themselves.

Well until meeting Kellhus the Scarlet Spires seemed to think the idea of damnation for sorcerry was a joke. Perhaps Seswatha figured his work against the No-God redeemed him, or even more likely his soul is held safely in his mumified heart.

ETA: But still see what you are saying - wouldn't closing the world benefit all sorcerers? Should not the majority of the Few side with the Consult, perhaps most especially the Mandati?