The False Sun- Bakker

[Madness]

I believe Mage has been used before in the series, Jurble. Insinger, however, was a new moniker introduced in the False Sun.

Topher, the Barricades are the Glamours that Nonmen Quya raised to hide the Ark before the Breaking of the Gates when the four tribes came to Earwa.

Ent, that's definitely a good summary. Things to remember, obviously, are the chorae embedded in the Carapace and the possible mix of other sorcery and the Tekne in the No-God's creation.

[polishgenius]

I think what's going on is that Shae is sharing some new tool to help open up the barriers. I'm still not quite sure I follow the whole thing.

Not so much a tool as weaving a spell. He figured out that the barriers were effectively deflecting any energy thrown at them coz of some clever theoretical quirk that meant they were... made out of nothingness, I guess? Or protected by nothingness at least, that points in a slightly different direction than at or through the barrier and means anything thrown at it went somewhere else. He figured out to hit it with a spell that uses a force with no direction and therefore can't be deflected.

I may be missing or misinterpreting some specifics coz I'm trying to define what's presented as a mathematical process in physical terms, and maths theory isn't really my field (in the slightest) but I think I have the gist.

It's more than one scene, really. It takes place over at least several weeks.

[Sci-2]

It's sort of a math puzzle. What sort of throws me off is "Entelechy Theorem"

(Happy Ent explained, in a prior post in this thread, the nature of the Barrier pretty well here - or at least I think it is a good conjecture.)

[Curethan]

Why is Earwa so special? Probably because its the centre of the universe. Just like most of our ancient thinkers believed Earth was.

[Kalbear]

And that's the rub. We don't know whether the inchies are truthy or not. We don't know whether the nonmen have the right of it. Or if Psatma is right. Or if Kellhus is right. it's the primary metaphysical question of the series.

Heck, we don't know even if the Consult are simply lying and really want to rapekill everything because it's cool and groovy that way.

That being said, I think it's pretty clear that the Consult do actually believe in what they're selling - that they desperately want to avoid damnation, they desperately want to seal off the world, and they believe this is how to do it. Whether or not they are correct is another matter, though the Inverse Flame apparently makes a strong argument (as does the No-God and its actual effects on the world; the application of their theory does seem to give more credence to their theory). What is not clear is whether or not the nonmen are wrong or right and damnation can be avoided. And again, note how heaven and angelic whatever just never comes up. No one talks about redemption or being saved or afterlife; it's always about hell.

Topher, the Barricades are the Glamours that Nonmen Quya raised to hide the Ark before the Breaking of the Gates when the four tribes came to Earwa.

Note that the Barricade isn't a glamour. It's an actual solid force. It does literally deflect. It isn't just a tricky shine. It's a barricade in the oldest sense of the word - it is a tower. And the tower in this case is made of geometric stuff that allows no weak parts to sap unless you can figure out how to be beyond geometry - to define a point.

Another way to think of it (I think) is that you can think that you want to pierce a tower where walls join. Except here, where walls join makes another set of towers and walls. So you want to find something in that to pierce, but it's still more towers and walls. So you keep going, and every joint is instead a creation of more walls and towers, ad infinitum. You can't break something like that with geometrical ideas; you can't put a wedge in an infinite space and gain leverage. Instead, you create a discontinuity - a hole in the pattern.

I thought it was Mek that showed humans the Ark in the first place in 777. Did he just show them where it was rather than show them in?

He showed them where it was, apparently, in the hopes of getting in. He couldn't figure it out.

[Madness]

I think Ent highlighted it pretty well and the story suggests it as well: the Barricades are a mix of solid nimil and sorcerous light. It is crafted by the Artisan and so assumptively is a sorcerous object - seems explicit. We don't actually know the nature of the blending of sorcery and object. Except in the False Sun, the Barricades are always referred to as Glamours in the Second Apocalypse. The only other instances of Glamours, I believe, are when Aurang/Esmenet is seducing Kellhus and Aurang seduces Esmenet. We don't know how Glamours work, if they are Cants, Wards, or something their own.

[Spring Bass]

And again, note how heaven and angelic whatever just never comes up. No one talks about redemption or being saved or afterlife; it's always about hell.

That's probably because we haven't had a good luck at Fanim beliefs about the afterlife, other than that people shouldn't worship the Hundred Gods because they're demons. Presumably they believe in some form of redemption, since they claim to worship the Solitary God.

Aside from that, you're mostly right. Mimara does see herself as holy, but most of our other religious perspectives are Inrithi, and they believe in getting "rescued" by the Hundred Gods and/or their ancestors in the afterlife. The One God is just an abstract concept for most of them.

[Antonius Pius]

Jurble, thanks for clearing up that bit about the Nonmen and damnation. I knew I was wrong somehwere.

Aurax is probably at-large in Earwa at that point in the timeline. Somebody had to slip the false revelation into the Tusk and help the Four Tribes of Eanna break the Gates of the Kayarsus, and it was presumably Aurax if Aurang was trapped inside the Ark.

I thought Aurax was sealed up in the Ark with his brother? I think it was explicitly mentioned that the last remaining Inchies feld into the Ark.

That being said, I think it's pretty clear that the Consult do actually believe in what they're selling - that they desperately want to avoid damnation, they desperately want to seal off the world, and they believe this is how to do it. Whether or not they are correct is another matter, though the Inverse Flame apparently makes a strong argument (as does the No-God and its actual effects on the world; the application of their theory does seem to give more credence to their theory).

It would seem to me that the Consult and Inchies are actually correct; if their entire premiss was flawed, that would be extremely lame. Plus, their results seem to indicate that they are right (as you say).

What is not clear is whether or not the nonmen are wrong or right and damnation can be avoided. And again, note how heaven and angelic whatever just never comes up. No one talks about redemption or being saved or afterlife; it's always about hell.

Good point.

[Papirolle]

And again, note how heaven and angelic whatever just never comes up. No one talks about redemption or being saved or afterlife; it's always about hell.

It is mentioned in the story that the "sighs in Heaven" and the "screams in Hell" sounded pretty much the same to the listener. I don't remember if it was Shae or Mek who said it.

So it seems they want to avoid them both and try for Oblivion instead.

[Maia]

Hm... interesting stuff indeed.

However, I still fail to understand how Inchoroi's terror of damnation managed to co-exist with their willingness to fight and die in wars. In fact, even here Aurang is risking his life to entrap an enemy. Shouldn't they be afraid of death above all, since eternal damnation is certain once they die? All the schemes to seal off Earwa would only benefit the currently living sinners, right?

The same applies to all sorcerers who believe in damnation and have seen the ciphrangs to lesser degree, BTW.

The first (?) view of Aurang sans his space-suit is... disturbing. And surprising, since I kinda thought that being a space alien he couldn't flounce around Earwa as is. Did his body deteritoriate in the intervening millenia, so that now it needs mobile life-support?

Also, Shea's mad lust for an Inchie of revolting appearance and huge, huge penis (which surely would fit without extensive Tekne modifications?) seems a bit of a non-sequitur. I just don't see how and why agreement with Inchies' goals would lead to this. I mean, sure, the skin-spies can be very seductive, but they also appear as handsome humans.

Re: Nonmen beliefs versus evidence of Cil-Aujas, I am not yet certain that they were wrong. Maybe certain preparations are necessary for things to go as planned or maybe the cruelty going on there was just too much and overhelmed the usual process, turning the place into Topos in the process.

OTOH, shouldn't Kelhus know for certain? He'd been Outside and would have seen for himself the fate of all those souls.

BTW, isn't it interesting how the notion that sorcerers could escape damnation vanished in the interim? Consult work?

Also, tantalising hints that the stain can be lessened by a very accomplished sorcerer. I am not entirely sure that it was due to Titigra having been blind, since incomparable "purity" of his Incantations has been mentioned too. I'd like to hear a PoV of somebody who had seen Kelhus's Mark.

In any case, I don't really see Kels senior or junior being able to use Psukhe with any amount of oohmp. They just don't have the necessary emotional apparatus, IMHO. If degree of mathematical genius is the sticking point re: damnation via socrery, though...

Of course, primitive peoples having magic relying on sophisticated higher mathematics, which knowledge doesn't affect the rest of their society at all, seems as ridiculous to me as ever.

And the notion that damnation and all that goes along with it, such as worth of souls (of which women have less), etc. is not just Eärwa-specific, but ubiquitious in that universe is... ugh.

[Happy Ent]

However, I still fail to understand how Inchoroi's terror of damnation managed to co-exist with their willingness to fight and die in wars.

Yes, this is strange.

The first (?) view of Aurang sans his space-suit is... disturbing. And surprising, since I kinda thought that being a space alien he couldn't flounce around Earwa as is.

But it’s pretty much as we see Aurang at the end of Warrior-Prophet, when he interrogates Aëngelas:

It was half-again taller than a man, with long, folded wings curved like scythes over its powerful frame. Save where it was mottled by black, cancerous spots, its skin was translucent, and sheathed about a great flared skull shaped like an oyster set on edge. And within the gaping jaws of that skull was fused another, more manlike, so that an almost human face grinned from its watery features.

There is yet one more description in a flashback in White-Luck, from the point of view of one of Acka’s dreams. No space suits are in evidence, as far as I remember.

Also, Shea's mad lust for an Inchie of revolting appearance and huge, huge penis (which surely would fit without extensive Tekne modifications?) seems a bit out of a non-sequitur.

That’s sorcery, a “glamour”:

And Shaeönanra could feel the tugging glamour, the promise of surrender within irresistible limbs. He could feel his own ardour rise, an answering will to be taken… ravished!

Of course, primitive peoples having magic relying on sophisticated higher mathematics, which knowledge doesn't affect the rest of their society at all, seems as ridiculous to me as ever.

I don’t agree. What the Gnostic sorcerers have is the concept of proof. Their mathematics is Euclidian, i.e., 300BC. Our own mathematics made no significant advances in that direction until the late 19th century. Pure mathematics (by which I mean formalism: theorem, proof) has developed quite independent of technology in our own civilisation. (There has been lots of useful applied mathematics from the time of Newton and onwards, but with today’s eyes 17th Century maths is terribly unmathematical. It has no solid foundation, no definitions, doesn’t use formal theorems and proofs. Very dirty. It happens to work, but it’s nothing like the Gnosis.)

[Galactus]

Yes, this is strange.

Yeah, the only things I can think of is A) Them being altruistic for the sake of the rest of the species (which, put it mildly, sounds out-of-character) or B) Them not really understanding that the Nonmen could actually kill them.

[Happy Ent]

Highly speculative: maybe they have a soul-trapping device in the Ark.

Though they have not yet found a way to undo their damnation, at least the Inchoroi have built some huge device that attracts their disembodied souls before they can travel to the outside. Imagine an enormous fridge somewhere inside the Pit of Obscenities¹ from which countless of alien souls dangle like small Whati dolls. It’s boring, much like Oblivion, but sure beats being in Hell.

Were I the Inchoroi, I’d have built such a thing many planets ago. Since soul-trapping is within the metaphysical understanding of even human schools, it seems plausible. Who knows, maybe it has something to do with the Inverse Fire.

1. Is that the best space ship name ever, or what? Even the Warhammer 40K Universe has nothing like it.

[jurble]

twist: the inverse fire is some kind of hell-themed video game, the inchoroi having forgotten so much of their technology thinks it shows them the reality of their damnation

[Screaming Turkey Ultimate]

twist: the inverse fire is some kind of hell-themed video game, the inchoroi having forgotten so much of their technology thinks it shows them the reality of their damnation

That would be great. "You mean we did all this shit over a video game? God damn it, guys. I guess we'd better start making some apologies."

[Happy Ent]

Bakker has said bad things about video games before. He believes that a large part of the current generation on young men will be lost because of video games (and porn and substances). This could be an analogy; the twist ending to the entire cycle of books might be a moral of the kind: don’t mistake your video games for reality.

Inverse Flame, the Inchoroi Farmville. I love it.

[Galactus]

Pit of Obscenities

I've always liked the Defiler of Flesh.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I don’t agree. What the Gnostic sorcerers have is the concept of proof. Their mathematics is Euclidian, i.e., 300BC. Our own mathematics made no significant advances in that direction until the late 19th century. Pure mathematics (by which I mean formalism: theorem, proof) has developed quite independent of technology in our own civilisation. (There has been lots of useful applied mathematics from the time of Newton and onwards, but with today’s eyes 17th Century maths is terribly unmathematical. It has no solid foundation, no definitions, doesn’t use formal theorems and proofs. Very dirty. It happens to work, but it’s nothing like the Gnosis.)

I'd always thought that math Gnostic sorcerers use was much simpler, like parabolas and basic curves, not geometry and topology (though fractals can typically be described by some pretty simple equations).

Advanced mathematical knowledge should give scientific development a head start, but I guess society hasn't developed to the point where complicated math would help yet. Not to mention Earwa is a highly superstitious society with a deep distrust of its best mathematicians. And the best of the best (The Mandate) have better thing to be doing than optimizing crop yields or charting shipping routes.

[Antonius Pius]

The first (?) view of Aurang sans his space-suit is... disturbing. And surprising, since I kinda thought that being a space alien he couldn't flounce around Earwa as is. Did his body deteritoriate in the intervening millenia, so that now it needs mobile life-support?

IIRC, there were specific grafts etc. that were necessary to make the Inchoroi adapt to life on Earwa. One of them was "birthing mouths" to communicate with the Nonmen. Other grafts and adaptions were undertaken to suit situations.

Also, Shea's mad lust for an Inchie of revolting appearance and huge, huge penis (which surely would fit without extensive Tekne modifications?) seems a bit of a non-sequitur. I just don't see how and why agreement with Inchies' goals would lead to this. I mean, sure, the skin-spies can be very seductive, but they also appear as handsome humans.

Perhaps his aspect of power (and certainly his obscenity/depravity, which is a factor amongst the experiments of the Mangeacca IIRC) is greater in his real form. Also, Shae is a victim of Aurang making him love him [Aurang], isn't he?

Yeah, the only things I can think of is A) Them being altruistic for the sake of the rest of the species (which, put it mildly, sounds out-of-character) or B) Them not really understanding that the Nonmen could actually kill them.

Or perhaps they already know they are damned, and fighting is the only way to prevent their fate? If they don't stand up to the Nonmen they're dead for sure.

Perhaps also physical presence equals higher chance of success in the case of the showdown with Titirga. IIRC from the glamours in Prince of Nothing, an amount of power is lost through the glamour.Though I could be conflating aspects of the glamour and the synthese.

I've always liked the Defiler of Flesh.

Who wouldn't?

[Happy Ent]

I'd always thought that math Gnostic sorcerers use was much simpler, like parabolas and basic curves, not geometry and topology (though fractals can typically be described by some pretty simple equations).

They certainly don’t have topology. But geometry, yes. Also, arithmetic is mentioned explicitly in this text. It sounds exactly like what the Greeks could do. Including the general non-understanding of infinity.

The Artisan seems to have done a major conceptual breakthrough, with the discovery of fractals. (As I said upthread, the glamour sounds like a Hilbert curve.) Shaeönanra, remarkable for his “cunning” (math skillz) figures it out. For our civilisation it took 2000 years and was completely unrelated to technological progress. The Greeks could have figured out, say, Cantor’s arguments for different cardinalities of reals and fractions. But they didn’t. (In contrast, Leibniz-Newton like mathematics, which you need to build stuff, is inexorably linked to technological developments. I don’t think anybody in Eärwa knows what a derivative is, save maybe Kellhus, who would be exactly the right person to develop it because he needs it.)

It’s not perfect, but a pretty good guess of what a nonmathematician like RSB could have been inspired by.