The False Sun- Bakker

[Curethan]

Not to mention that they are lead by guys who gave Nonmen immortality so as to cause the womb plague instead of:

a. just dumping plutonium or whatever in their drinking water

and

b. starting their extermination program with the weaker, but more quickly procreating humans.

and continued using the baroque stuff like weapon races, etc, instead of much simpler, but incomparably more effective poisons and microbiological agents.

To be fair, they agreed to grant the non-men immortality in order to obtain a truce (cuz they were getting their arses kicked)

and thereby gained their trust and access to their physiology (so they could simultaneously prepare their sterilization bio-agent) whilst they also prepared the weapon races.

Poisoning the water supply or gifting disease infected blankets is never a final solution.

As for men, the nonmen regarded them as little more than animals - why would the inchies deal with them first?

It's too easy to hand out labels of stupidity with the benefit of hindsight and limited information. It's like people labeling Eddard Stark as stupid for not abandoning his humanity.

[Happy Ent]

[…] I don't see why it would make them also revel in cruelty for its own sake.

Do they? I can’t remember the Inchoroi being deliberately cruel. Quite the contrary; they are a race of lovers. What little torture we have witnessed by their hands (or other appendages) has been more like Barbarella’s torture by the Orgasmatron.

(Now there’s a fan-fiction idea ripe for the taking. Barbarella/Aurang.)

The aliens have created their weapon races, in particular the Sranc and the Skin-Spies, to become aroused by cruelty towards Eärwan fauna. But that makes sense. Themselves, the Inchoroi seem above such depravity. (But I may be wrong. Enlighten me.)

[Kalbear]

To be fair, they agreed to grant the non-men immortality in order to obtain a truce (cuz they were getting their arses kicked)

and thereby gained their trust and access to their physiology (so they could simultaneously prepare their sterilization bio-agent) whilst they also prepared the weapon races.

Poisoning the water supply or gifting disease infected blankets is never a final solution.

As for men, the nonmen regarded them as little more than animals - why would the inchies deal with them first?

It's too easy to hand out labels of stupidity with the benefit of hindsight and limited information. It's like people labeling Eddard Stark as stupid for not abandoning his humanity.

well, Ned was pretty stupid.

And the consult - no, the inchies - have wiped out many planets. You'd think they would be a bit smarter.

[Kalbear]

Do they? I can’t remember the Inchoroi being deliberately cruel. Quite the contrary; they are a race of lovers. What little torture we have witnessed by their hands (or other appendages) has been more like Barbarella’s torture by the Orgasmatron.

(Now there’s a fan-fiction idea ripe for the taking. Barbarella/Aurang.)

The aliens have created their weapon races, in particular the Sranc and the Skin-Spies, to become aroused by cruelty towards Eärwan fauna. But that makes sense. Themselves, the Inchoroi seem above such depravity. (But I may be wrong. Enlighten me.)

Inrau. The tortures of those at golgotterath. Shae and his tests.

Also, just because you like fucking doesn't mean it isn't cruelty to do so.

[Francis Buck]

Yeah, I mean raping a woman in front of her husband and then throwing her and their small child to a pack of ravenous rape-monsters before then going on to rape the man himself...that's not cruel at all. Totally sympathize with those poor, misunderstood rape-aliens.

[Maia]

As for men, the nonmen regarded them as little more than animals - why would the inchies deal with them first?

Because there were tons of them, they procreated quickly and little more than animals or not, their souls counted for connection with the Outside as much or possibly even more than those of Nonmen! Humans made a much more logical first target, IMHO.

Also, I thought that immortality was the price for Inchies getting access to the Nonmen? Access that could have been used to poison them all by a liberal application of cyanide or whatever instead of complicated stuff like the womb plague and the weapon races.

[jurble]

Yeah, I mean raping a woman in front of her husband and then throwing her and their small child to a pack of ravenous rape-monsters before then going on to rape the man himself...that's not cruel at all. Totally sympathize with those poor, misunderstood rape-aliens.

From the Inchoroi point of view, it isn't, because victims enjoy it thanks to their glamours of lust. The Inchoroi sex-drive isn't coupled to violence like that of the weapon-races. Instead, the Inchoroi have a sex-drive that's turned up to a eleventy-billion. They want to have sex with everything.

And there's no indication that the Mangaecca enjoy cruelty for the sake of cruelty. They enjoyed their experiments because they went to themselves "Well, we're damned, we might as well be super-damned!" and took enjoyment in that transgression. The transgressive nature of their acts is what they enjoyed, not the violence itself.

Like, the Mangaecca now, thousands of years later, proably do no get off on cruelty. It was the trangression they enjoyed, and they have been transgressive for 3,000 years now. It has become their normal.

[Sci-2]

And there's no indication that the Mangaecca enjoy cruelty for the sake of cruelty. They enjoyed their experiments because they went to themselves "Well, we're damned, we might as well be super-damned!" and took enjoyment in that transgression. The transgressive nature of their acts is what they enjoyed, not the violence itself.

I found this kind of weird, that the Mangas reacted to damnation in a way that made them human versions of the Inchies. I get the idea of realizing nothing you matters because you are damned, but I suspect many people would have varied reactions beyond getting off on 120 Days of Sodom type shit.

I hope there's a good reason for this, and not a tread into the now banal torture porn.

[Curethan]

Because there were tons of them, they procreated quickly and little more than animals or not, their souls counted for connection with the Outside as much or possibly even more than those of Nonmen! Humans made a much more logical first target, IMHO.

Also, I thought that immortality was the price for Inchies getting access to the Nonmen? Access that could have been used to poison them all by a liberal application of cyanide or whatever instead of complicated stuff like the womb plague and the weapon races.

a) men didn't even worship gods or have their own culture when the inchies and the non-men were fighting the cuno-inchoroi wars. They were literaly nothing more than pets of the non-men. Could the inchies detect that they had souls? ... we don't know.

B) that is what I was saying. Look to our own history for attempts at genocide, it just isn't that easy. Poison the water and people stop drinking it. The inchies weren't numerous enough to poison them all simultaneously. Agree it would have been much better to create some disease that killed them all with 100% success, but was it even possible? The inchies had already lost much of the own knowledge of the Tekne when they got to Earwa, according to some of the information RSB shared on the 3c's forums - I think the womb plague was more succesful than they had even hoped.

well, Ned was pretty stupid.

It's true. Just saying I prefer him to have stayed in character. The TV show actually did a better job of portraying him as someone who would rather stick to their principles and lose, I think.

And the consult - no, the inchies - have wiped out many planets. You'd think they would be a bit smarter.

I got the impression that the cultural attitude of the nonmen and specifically the sorcery of the quya provided rather more problems than previous races. They didn't even bother having the wracu and other weapon races prepared at first, must have been rather a shock when these seeming iron age savages started exploding their heads by singing at them. Also, we don't know how much racial and 'scientific' attrition the inchies had suffered before hitting Earwa like a sack of bricks.

Ultimately, I think they were a race of religiously fanatic bullies with a penchant for torture and murder. Used to winning by dint of superiority and ferocity, they got smashed when they unknowingly picked on someone their own size.

@ sciborg2: I assumed it was because they have become opposed to the inherrent morality that they became immoral - acting always against the established tenets as a way of rejecting them.

[Callan S.]

Off topic, but I idly wonder if Ned had won, if people would say he was stupid?

Or instead conveniently celebrated, his moral values lauded by the reader at some level?

[Curethan]

Yeh, exactly Callan.

It's like Alexander the great, always the first into the battle - inspirational leadership against the odds, but only because he won...

Could he have achieved all those victories from a traditional position of leadership? It seems doubtful... ah, hindsight.

Losers always look stupid.

[jurble]

On Shae's mindset when discovering the reality of his damnation, Disney has an applicable scene:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cmn9iH6bHJc

Both characters decide to take actions to prevent their damnation.

Actually, you could probably modify the lyrics for Shae upon discovering the Inverse Fire...

Kingly Nil'Giccas, you know I am a sorcerous man,

Of my vanity, I am justly proud.

Kingly Nil'Giccas, You know I'm so much smarter than the common mean, licentious prowl.

So tell me NIl'Giccas, why I see a Ciphrang standing there,

Why his smouldering eyes appear to scorch my soul?

I feel him, I see him,

the damnation in his baleful gaze is blazing in me out of all control.

Like fire! Hellfire!

There's fire in my skin!

You damned Cunoroi liar,

There is no Oblivion

or something similar

[Sci-2]

On Shae's mindset when discovering the reality of his damnation, Disney has an applicable scene:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cmn9iH6bHJc

Both characters decide to take actions to prevent their damnation.

This reminds me of the psycho who sat behind me years back during Prince of Egypt and cackled while God killed all of the Egyptian's first born sons.

[Kalbear]

Off topic, but I idly wonder if Ned had won, if people would say he was stupid?

Probably not, but he wouldn't have won because he was stupid. He trusted littlefinger, Cersei and his young daughters. There was very little situation that would have allowed him to be successful. It's much like saying 'would we have judged the Inchies to be stupid if they were successful? Well, probably not, but they weren't - and they weren't because they were stupid.

Alexander led from the front and risked injury but he also was a very smart tactician and did very well with terrain and mobility - things that many were not thinking of at the time. Don't mistake the riskiness for stupidity. Ned risked all for stupid things, or at least not particularly useful things for winning.

From the Inchoroi point of view, it isn't, because victims enjoy it thanks to their glamours of lust. The Inchoroi sex-drive isn't coupled to violence like that of the weapon-races. Instead, the Inchoroi have a sex-drive that's turned up to a eleventy-billion. They want to have sex with everything.

Again, just because you think it's not cruel doesn't mean it isn't cruel. The victims enjoy it as they're being raped to death; that's not exactly a blessing, is it? And we really don't know about the cruelty or not of the Inchies. Their weapon races love fucking everything to death (and the scranc certainly don't have pheromones that make it awesome for their victims), the Inchies have repeatedly mentioned how they hate humans and hate the stink of them, and certainly act cruel. It's a lot easier to assume that they're not raping these people because they really want to give them a hot orgasm; they're selfish and brutal.

And that is why they are damned.

[Spring Bass]

The Inchoroi took risks because they didn't really have a choice at first. They crash-landed on Earwa, killing most of the Inchoroi and leaving them stranded with no possibility of leaving the planet. Cu'jara Cinmoi's initial reaction to the Inchoroi's arrival (including the capture of two of them) was to execute them and attack Sil and his host, forcing the Inchoroi to hide inside the Ark. Afterwards, it was either "wait inside the Ark until Cu'jara or one of his successors decides to finish us off for good", or "take the initiative and try to wipe them out, which also works with our plan to avoid damnation". Finally, once all but Aurax and Aurang were dead, it was "fuck it, we might as well try to do the damnation plan anyways".

Since they left the other planets, they presumably didn't have the same problems. Attacks on those planets likely involved the use of their Space-Age weaponry, such as the aircraft with energy weapons mentioned in the TTT Appendix on the Incu-Curunoi Wars.

*Cool Post*

I like it! The rhymes don't entirely work out, though. I think it might be better as

Kingly Nil'Giccas, you know I am a sorcerous man,

Of my powers, I am justly proud.

Kingly Nil'Giccas, You know I'm so much greater than the common weak, vulgar, licentious prowl.

So tell me NIl'Giccas, why I see a Ciphrang there,

Why his burning eyes do scorch my soul?

I feel him, I see him,

the Hunger in his baleful gaze is blazing in me out of control.

Like fire! Hellfire!

There's fire in my skin!

You Ishroi, King Liar,

There's no Obli-vi-on

[Curethan]

Yeh, I don't mind if the stupidity is motivated and/or explained by character flaws.

Alexander (as portrated by Arrian) led from the front because of his character rather than as a intellectual decision imo.

Whether that inference is true or not, that's why I chose the example. Alexanders actions seem like clever tactics now only because it worked.

I guess it's only when the consequences seem obvious before I find out what happens in the story that I think the character is stupid.

eta.

the inchies were moribund before they got to Earwa iirc - probly used a similar immortality/sterilization process to the wombplague on themselves in order to gain time to close off damnation.

Heck, they probably thought the non-men would join them after they 'shared' it.

[Happy Ent]

Again, just because you think it's not cruel doesn't mean it isn't cruel.

But that was not the argument. The argument was whether the Inchoroi get pleasure from inflicting cruelty, like the Sranc or Ramsay Bolton. I don’t think they do.

The Inchoroi do not find the suffering of their victims stimulating in any way. They don’t get off on cruelty for its own sake; their victim’s misery is no in itself pleasant to them.

They are a race of lovers.

[Curethan]

Can't agree, HE.

imo the inchies have a different meaning for love - it's all about domination and the coruption or destruction of the 'self' in others. They resent the boundaries of skin because they want to dominate everything.

Unlike Ramsay there is no dichotomy in them, they are completely immoral.

Earwans seem to be all abour finding love through the perfection of self in abject submission. It's evil vs good in those forms.

The dunyain is right in the middle because he's amoral. He will dominate through any means, but he submits absolutely to mission.

[Happy Ent]

Curethan: I can’t see much in what you write that I disagree with.

So we seem to be arguing past each other.

Maia claimed that the Inchoroi “revel in cruelty for its own sake”. (Or did she mean the Consult? Then, too, I disagree.)

I simply think that is factually wrong.

Cruelty has no attraction to the Inchoroi. Pleasure does, to the point of magicking their rape victims into a state of lust. When we see Aurang rape Esmi and Kellhus from their point of view, Aurang specifically uses magic to make the experience pleasurable to the victim. Had Aurang revelled in “cruelty for its own sake,” these encounters would be quite different.

This is not written as an endorsement of Inchoroi morality. But they revel in (their own) pleasure, not the suffering of others. That does not mean that they cause no suffering.

[Antonius Pius]

Maia claimed that the Inchoroi “revel in cruelty for its own sake”. (Or did she mean the Consult? Then, too, I disagree.)

I simply think that is factually wrong.

"There is no escape from Golgotterath!" Aurang certainly seem to enjoy punishing Nau-Cayuti.

Cruelty has no attraction to the Inchoroi. Pleasure does, to the point of magicking their rape victims into a state of lust. When we see Aurang rape Esmi and Kellhus from their point of view, Aurang specifically uses magic to make the experience pleasurable to the victim. Had Aurang revelled in “cruelty for its own sake,” these encounters would be quite different.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Inchies despise any limitations on their desires. They want whatever cruel or depraved fantasy that fleets into their heads to be realised at once, and then they're angry that it leads to damnation.

Also, when Aurang rapes Esmi and seduces Kellhus, he's using his sex-charm to get them to divulge what they know. It's not about making it pleasurable, it is about overloading their senses so that he can make them do whatever he wants, making it another dimension of rape (forcing their will).