Knight of the Laughing Tree

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I thought it was obvious that it was Lyanna. A crannogman wouldn't know how to ride a horse well enough to joust, for one thing. We have anecdotal evidence of Lyanna's riding prowess ("half a horse herself") and her practicing sword-fighting with Benjen in Bran's vision. For another, if it was Howland, why do Meera and Jojen avoid telling Bran that, while at the same time acting surprised that he hadn't heard it? If the Knight was his aunt, wouldn't that be a good reason for him to have heard it before? And equally, if it was Lyanna and that was part of what led to her death, wouldn't that be a good reason for Eddard to avoid talking about it?

Then you figure that Rhaegar was the one assigned to chase the guy down and find out who he was. That gives us the perfect explanation for what happened — Rhaegar found out it was Lyanna, and that was how they met. He became infatuated with her and crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty, either to recognize her jousting skill, to "consummate" his infatuation, or both.

Just the fact that jousting relies so heavily on horsemanship should be enough to immediately disqualify Howland.

Out of curiosity, who was the "maid with laughing purple eyes" that Ned danced with? I don't remember Cat's eyes being purple but is it her?

Ashara Dayne. Catelyn wasn't betrothed to Ned at that time.

[bloodymime]

I think Lyanna = KOTLT for the reasons stated above. Rhaegar sought out the knight as demanded by Aerys and found out it was Lyanna. Once fully understanding why she did it, he became infatuated with her due to romantic notions of honor and loyalty, and probably most of all, defense of the weak. And when he crowned her the queen of love and beauty, it was for what she did for, not what she looked like.

Sorry, know that's very ABC-afterschool-special, but still think something along those lines will eventually be revealed - if anything ever is.

This is the only reason it would make sense to me. I have plenty of doubts as to Lyanna's physical ability to defeat three grown knights in a joust. The man thinking about how jousting is 3/4th horsemanship has spent his entire life training at it. It makes sense at Jaime's level of skill for him to be thinking horsemanship is so important because he has the fundamentals down to instinct, he knows what it's like to charge straight at man knowing that to get to hit him he's going to be hit himself and how to deflect that lance off of his shield, not so much for a first time novice entering a joust no matter how much play practice they might have had. Sorry it's just hard to buy.

But it does make a neat story so I wouldn't be surprised and it makes more sense for Rhaegar to crown her queen for more than a pretty face. You always get the sense of Rhaegar as a more introverted and contemplative man. He's not there drinking and wenching, he's playing the harp so sad to make the women weep, he goes to Summerhall alone to brood. Could be an act but nobody ever seems to think so. The only actual reference I can personally remember to Rhaegar and women is Ned doubting he was ever the type of man to frequent whores. All of which seems to lend to him crowning Lyanna for more of a reason than 'dude she's hot'.

[bloodymime]

It also could have been Benjen. He was small and trained at the knightly arts. He also would have used a booming voice to cover up the fact that he was young.

I think the least likely option is Howland Reed. Lyanna being more likely than Benjen, but Benjen possible as well.

Any theories out there about it being Benjen in the joust followed up by Lyanna claiming it was her to Rhaegar to cover for little brother? Could give a reason for Benjen joining the Night's Watch out of guilt over the part he played because no matter how much House Stark honors the men on the Wall it's hard not to wonder the reason for his leaving with half the male Starks suddenly dead and gone.

[rmanoj]

Benjen wouldn't have been wearing ill-fitting armour because he had his own set. He has also never been noted to be a prodigious rider, unlike Lyanna (incidentally, Roose Bolton's"half a horse herself" comment always makes me start trying to work out Domeric's age, which doesn't seem to make any sense), and would in fact have been even younger and smaller than she was.

[Mr. E]

On the other hand, this makes Howland Reed much more intriguing than I originally fought. What if, beyond his fealty to Winterfell, he was so determined at the TOJ because he felt he owed something to Lyanna?

Oh, the drama!

[bloodymime]

Benjen wouldn't have been wearing ill-fitting armour because he had his own set. He has also never been noted to be a prodigious rider, unlike Lyanna (incidentally, Roose Bolton's"half a horse herself" comment always makes me start trying to work out Domeric's age, which doesn't seem to make any sense), and would in fact have been even younger and smaller than she was.

He would if he didn't want to recognized but being even younger and smaller than Lyanna is a definite minus. It's hard to see her having the physical ability in the matter as it is.

[Ser Addam of Flea Bottom]

Oh god, I hope it isn't Lyanna. It just makes the whole story very cheesy, and that's not something I find in George Martin's stories. Could be funny if GRRM intentionally left the traces, only to reveal that it is somebody unimportant.

[Bran Vras]

(incidentally, Roose Bolton's"half a horse herself" comment always makes me start trying to work out Domeric's age, which doesn't seem to make any sense)

Yes I have asked this question already in a thread about Roose Bolton, and could not get any satisfactory answer. Roose says

Horses ... the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard’s daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

Domeric was much younger that Lyanna, (proof: Roose had a wife and children before Domeric's mother and he is only "past forty", so less than fifty. And Lyanna would be about thirty three. Moreover it's hinted that Domeric died just after his squiring years in the Vale.) and could not have outraced Lyanna in any meaningful sense. It has been suggested that Lord Rickard is in fact Rickard Kastark. But that does not seem to work either. Alys Karstark is just sixteen as Domeric has been dead for several years. I guess Roose would not compare his son's skills with those of a much younger girl. Hence the mystery is unsolved.

To return to the thread, it seems to me that Howland Reed could have played an active role in the encounter of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He was just back from the Isle of Faces, and I have observed in another thread that the kidnapping of Lyanna follows precisely the rules of marriage of the wildlings, themselves followers of the old gods.

[corbon]

This is the only reason it would make sense to me. I have plenty of doubts as to Lyanna's physical ability to defeat three grown knights in a joust. The man thinking about how jousting is 3/4th horsemanship has spent his entire life training at it. It makes sense at Jaime's level of skill for him to be thinking horsemanship is so important because he has the fundamentals down to instinct, he knows what it's like to charge straight at man knowing that to get to hit him he's going to be hit himself and how to deflect that lance off of his shield, not so much for a first time novice entering a joust no matter how much play practice they might have had. Sorry it's just hard to buy.

Its entirely probably the Lyanna spent quite a bit of time in simulated jousting with her brothers, though probably hidden from her father. Riding at rings was the primary training for lancers for many years, and exactly the sort of thing she could do secretly in the woods around winterfell, competing with and even beating her brothers.

Apart from that, the KotLT rode just three tilts. That is not a huge physical requirement.

And the knights she beat were no great names with no notable records as jousters. Sure, they were 'champions' - in a challenge format where the initial champions are 'chosen' purely for their relationships and the 'better' jousters are unlikely to compete for the first few days.

I think that the way all three knights were simultaneously 'champions' for the benefit of the KotLT is far more creduality-stretching than Lyanna as KotLT being able to beat them. But that was convenient for the story, so...

But it does make a neat story so I wouldn't be surprised and it makes more sense for Rhaegar to crown her queen for more than a pretty face. You always get the sense of Rhaegar as a more introverted and contemplative man. He's not there drinking and wenching, he's playing the harp so sad to make the women weep, he goes to Summerhall alone to brood. Could be an act but nobody ever seems to think so. The only actual reference I can personally remember to Rhaegar and women is Ned doubting he was ever the type of man to frequent whores. All of which seems to lend to him crowning Lyanna for more of a reason than 'dude she's hot'.

Indeed.

The one thing I disagree with Apple Martini on here (she states the rest of it so well) is that I don't think Rhaegar is awarding her the crown due to her skill with the lance so much as due to her honour, courage, and willingness to act as a true knight should (and how rare is that!)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Oh god, I hope it isn't Lyanna. It just makes the whole story very cheesy, and that's not something I find in George Martin's stories. Could be funny if GRRM intentionally left the traces, only to reveal that it is somebody unimportant.

I think you're SOL. And really, if it's "nobody," what's the bloody point of the story?

The one thing I disagree with Apple Martini on here (she states the rest of it so well) is that I don't think Rhaegar is awarding her the crown due to her skill with the lance so much as due to her honour, courage, and willingness to act as a true knight should (and how rare is that!)

Are the two mutually exclusive? ;)

[Lord Damian]

It has been eluded to that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the famous tournament. Also, Bran, through the trees sees Lyanna as a child totally dominating Benjen at swordplay.

[Dragonfish]

It has been eluded to that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the famous tournament. Also, Bran, through the trees sees Lyanna as a child totally dominating Benjen at swordplay.

Benjen was at the tournament (he's the "wolf pup"). Rickard was, I think, the Stark in Winterfell.

[Cheese Pudding]

For another, if it was Howland, why do Meera and Jojen avoid telling Bran that, while at the same time acting surprised that he hadn't heard it? If the Knight was his aunt, wouldn't that be a good reason for him to have heard it before? And equally, if it was Lyanna and that was part of what led to her death, wouldn't that be a good reason for Eddard to avoid talking about it?

Since that was part of that led to her death Eddard probably avoided talking about that, yes. Howland Reed must be much more open to hist kids than Ned used to be. That's why Meera and Jojen were surprised, because they didn't know that (the fact that Ned avoided talking about Lyanna or her death). That may indicate that they (Meera and Jojen) don't know about Jon's "real" parents, because if they knew, smart kids as they are, they would foresee Ned's behaviour toward Lyanna's death.

[Jem]

I'm wondering if Meera and Jojen were using the story of the KotLT to kind of poke around the subject of Lyanna and Rhaegar, kind of testing the waters with Bran, just to see how much (if anything) he knew.

I think that Meera and Jojen do know about R+L=J but they were told by their father that it was a sensitive subject, so they couldn't just go up to Bran and say "Hey, how about your aunt getting it on with Rhaegar. What's it like having a cousin who is a prince?".

I think that they are subtly probing around to see what the Stark kids know. And I think that they are kind of surprised that the Stark kids, or Bran at least, don't know anything at all about Lyanna.

[Howling Mad]

To return to the thread, it seems to me that Howland Reed could have played an active role in the encounter of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He was just back from the Isle of Faces, and I have observed in another thread that the kidnapping of Lyanna follows precisely the rules of marriage of the wildlings, themselves followers of the old gods.

That is a very astute observation ;)

[corbon]

Are the two mutually exclusive? ;)

Not at all. But they way you state it provides ammunition for the 'how could a girl of 14 being so good with a lance' people. I think she was pretty good, but not that good. It simply isn't necessary for her to be so. Nor do I think it would be as important to the man Rhaegar is presented to us as, so much as her honour and courage would be. I think it presents a poorer picture of him thinking "hey, this girl is great with a lance, she should be rewarded even if it seems odd to other people" as opposed to "wow, this girl stands up to dishonourable conduct with honour and courage beyond what she should have. That is worthy of a significant reward, even if it seems odd to others."

And of course I'm biased, or rather, notice this subject particularly, because of our past history discussing KotLT performance at Harrenhal where I provided copious textual evidence to prove your claims... misleading as to KotLT's actual performance.

I do my best, but I don't pretend to be perfect. People who have shown to be worthwhile listening to get closer attention from me as well.

Note, I don't wish to reopen that old debate, just explaining why to me this slight difference was worthy of making note of when using general agreement with a post of yours that covered most things perfectly for me.

[WolveseatDragons]

FWIW, I don't think the Reed kids know who the KoLT is until they talk to Bran. My guess is that their father told them the story many times with the assumption being that the KoLT was him (esp told in first person by their father) and thinking as children do they don't really consider it being Lyanna. When they tell the story to Bran though and he has no idea about it they are shocked and I think at that point they realize that the "no one knows" really meant Lyanna.

I also think it has to be Lyanna obviously. It simply wraps up the whole story so much better and connects the dots. "A Song of Ice and Fire" is as much a story about Lyanna and Rhaegar and the decisions they made and their consequences as anything which will likely later connect with another "Ice" and another "Fire". It also fits well with Martin's style by having a tragic story of how someone tried to be honorable and good and it resulted in tragic and unforseen consequences as so many other things in the story do. One other sidenote is clearly Arya and Lyanna are mirrors of each other in many ways and I think it is a hint that Martin has Arya pretend to be a boy just as Lyanna did.

I also sometimes wonder if Howland Reed is a greenseer just and is attached to a tree and that is why he still wouldn't leave The Neck even when his best friend Ned and his children are in peril. There has to be some reason why the crannogmen stay out of all of the conflicts in the books outside of flinging some darts at the Ironmen at Moat Cailin seeing as how it is clear the Reeds are probably the most loyal bannermen the Starks have.

[corbon]

FWIW, I don't think the Reed kids know who the KoLT is until they talk to Bran. My guess is that their father told them the story many times with the assumption being that the KoLT was him (esp told in first person by their father) and thinking as children do they don't really consider it being Lyanna. When they tell the story to Bran though and he has no idea about it they are shocked and I think at that point they realize that the "no one knows" really meant Lyanna.

I don't see how that makes sense?

They tell a story they think was about their family, and are so shocked when Bran doesn't know about it they suddenly think its about his family?

Ahh, no.

Besides, there is an 'or not' or similar in there from Jojen that indicates that the KotLT isn't the little crannogman.

Also, the Reeds aren't children. Jojen maybe still is, but due to his greenseer talents he is older, wiser and more mature than most adults. This is not some wide-eyed kid. And Meera is a woman grown at 16, just small and slim.

[the trees have eyes]

To return to the thread, it seems to me that Howland Reed could have played an active role in the encounter of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He was just back from the Isle of Faces, and I have observed in another thread that the kidnapping of Lyanna follows precisely the rules of marriage of the wildlings, themselves followers of the old gods.

Wait, what? The wildlings steal women, yes, but that is the custom of the wild not the marriage customs of the followers of the Old Gods. The North follows the Old Gods and the people of the North marry infront of Heart Trees rather than in septs but their custom is to make marriage offers and say vows. They don't steal women.

Howland Reed visited TCOTF on the Isle of Faces and there is no connection with the wildlings or their marriage customs that I can see. And it is Rhaegar who elopes with / kidnaps Lyanna. Any involvement from Howland Reed is purely speculative and IMO unlikely. The Reeds are sworn to the Starks and Lyanna's elopement / kidnapping prompts Brandon Stark to ride to KL and get himself killed, so it's not the sort of fealty you would expect Howland to render.

I always read the story as Howland being the knight, his success resulting from being touched by the Old Gods in some way and Jojen's greensight stemming from however his father was touched by his visit to the Isle of Faces. The story is told as the Crannogman's story, his grand adventure, and it would be strange that Lyanna would become the focal point of it rather than a background character like the other Starks.

I do agree it is posisble though I would find it difficult to see Lyanna as another Brienne. One warrior maid is enough for me.

[Milcov]

Nobody is claiming that Lyanna is like Brienne. It's just known that she was excellent on a horse, that she was a good enough fighter to beat Benjen and is like Arya (who would stand up for Howland Reed in that situation). I'd always assumed that the story was about Lyanna and haven't seen anything close to dissuading me from that.