Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Bran Vras]

Wait, what? The wildlings steal women, yes, but that is the custom of the wild not the marriage customs of the followers of the Old Gods. The North follows the Old Gods and the people of the North marry infront of Heart Trees rather than in septs but their custom is to make marriage offers and say vows. They don't steal women.

Howland Reed visited TCOTF on the Isle of Faces and there is no connection with the wildlings or their marriage customs that I can see. And it is Rhaegar who elopes with / kidnaps Lyanna. Any involvement from Howland Reed is purely speculative and IMO unlikely. The Reeds are sworn to the Starks and Lyanna's elopement / kidnapping prompts Brandon Stark to ride to KL and get himself killed, so it's not the sort of fealty you would expect Howland to render.

I always read the story as Howland being the knight, his success resulting from being touched by the Old Gods in some way and Jojen's greensight stemming from however his father was touched by his visit to the Isle of Faces. The story is told as the Crannogman's story, his grand adventure, and it would be strange that Lyanna would become the focal point of it rather than a background character like the other Starks.

I do agree it is posisble though I would find it difficult to see Lyanna as another Brienne. One warrior maid is enough for me.

I suggested the idea in this thread, and I plan to expand soon on the idea of Howland Reed's active role in the Rhaegar/Lyanna story in the same thread.

About the marriage customs of the wildlings and the northmen, both people worship the old gods. Yes the marriage customs appear different but there is a continuity. For the northmen, a male relative has to give the bride to the groom. For the wildlings, the groom has to fight the male relatives of the bride (and possibly the bride herself). Both traditions, of both variants, give much importance to the stain of bastardy (see Ygritte again, and Robett Glover's comment on Ramsay) if the marriage is not valid. So if no Stark was willing to give Lyanna, the only option is kidnapping for Rhaegar, who indeed prevailed over Brandon Stark on the jousting field at Harrenhal.

[Dernhelm]

heh, knowing GRRM, Rhaegar chanced on the KOTLT undressing her disguise :P

but joking aside, i do think he caught up to KOTLT (whether there was a scuffle--how cheesier can it get--or he snuck up on KOTLT) and then saw her beneath the helm, prodded her gently (instead of demanded, knowing his kind nature) why, what's the explanation for all the trickery, ruckus/confusion she has caused, etc and then sparks flew. part beauty, part admiration for skill and respect for her courage, honor, determination. let's just say he was really impressed and almost awed (kind of like how Gendry reacted when he confirmed/learned more of Arya's true identity) and he thought it could not do without praise, which was leading to that until he proclaimed her Queen of Love and Beauty.

[Senshi Soldier]

Want to add in a little bit of a stretched idea to the mix. Speculation galore but I try to keep it reasonable. First off I think Lyanna is the KOTLT. And I think Rhaegar crowned her because he figured this out. But I don't think he found it out and they had some sort of romantic discovery in the woods. Not at first.

I imagine that Rhaegar goes out after the KOTLT cause dad said so. He then finds the knight and they are horsed. The knight dashes off and Rhaegar follows while the rest of the people he is with fall behind because they are no match to the horsemanship of Rhaegar and the KOTLT. When it is just Rhaegar and the KOTLT they square off and Rhaegar loses in their battle. Him losing this joust is an important part. But as he loses maybe he knocked off some clue that it was her, like a ribbon or something, and when he finally caught up after the knight flees all that was left was the shield on the weirwood tree. This way he knows who the knight is but none of his men do. And then he is also able to say to his father, without lying, that all there was was a shield on a tree. The knight doesn't show up for the next day of jousting so once Rhaegar wins the tournament he decides to give the crown to the one that would have won. He gives her the crown of roses because she beat him in single combat. This is his way of letting her know that he figured it out.

He then is given some time to obsess over her as being something he doesn't have in his life. A really strong woman while his wife is a bit feeble. He is a bit of an obsessive guy. And also having a secret like this together only adds to his obsession. Their relationship grows from there rather than being oh you are the KOTLT kiss kiss kiss. I think Lyanna is too tough and tomboy to just fall for a guy right away. Rhaegar is a romantic though so he knows how to win them over in the end.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Lyanna was 13 at the tourney, which seems to be old enough to compete, though who has had success in a tourney that young besides Barristan?

Lyanna is definitely the knight of the laughing tree, and I think that Bran will look through the wierwood at harrenhal and see Rhaegar confronting Lyanna and finding out she is TKotLT..it would be a very powerful scene for defining both characters motives moving forward. Theres a couple years before the "kidnapping" happens, I wonder how much communication they had with each other?

[Maester Rigney]

It doesn't make much sense for it to be Howland Reed. Bran keeps guessing that it was the crannogman. That would be too obvious. The most important part is that this was a joust. It was specifically mentioned that crannogmen don't ride well. Jousting is actually mostly about being a good rider. Lyanna was known for being a great rider. Why would the Reeds assume that Bran had heard this story a thousand times if the KotLT was Howland Reed? They assumed, like themselves, that because the Starks' family members were in the know, that the Stark children would also know.

[Howling Mad]

I never get tired of reading the KotLT story. It's like a conversation with an old friend, wierd. :dunno:

[Jolene Brown]

I recently re-read it and I thought the KotLT spoke, which seems to rule out it being Lyanna. I think they heard a male voice. Is there a reason it can't be Ned? That seems like the logical choice to me.

[Dragonfish]

I recently re-read it and I thought the KotLT spoke, which seems to rule out it being Lyanna. I think they heard a male voice.

The voice is described as booming, but not male. A booming voice is not too difficult for a woman to affect, especially from inside a closed helm.

Is there a reason it can't be Ned? That seems like the logical choice to me.

Well, I believe the KotLT was described as being small of stature and wearing ill-fitting armor cobbled together from other suits. Ned was in his late teens at the time (16 or 17, IIRC), and would have had his own suit of armor. Also, he doesn't really seem like the jousting type to me. Really, I think the most obvious answer is that it's Lyanna.

[Swordsaint]

Awesome post. I think it's Lyanna after reading it again. it fits perfectly together with the whole story.

[Tagganaro]

Wow, that's crazy but it actually makes a lot of sense that it could be Lyanna. I always just assumed it was Howland, but now that I reread it, it almost makes as much, if not more sense for it to be Lyanna.

I was actually thinking it might be Ned as well, it would help explain the really close relationship between Ned and Howland and would also explain the whole Jojen asking Bran "Are you sure your father never told you this story" comment. But the ill-fitting armor and short stature kind of seem to rule Ned out.

Something that's very curious to me- Why the weirwood device/banner? I'm sort of just trying to find the symbolism/purpose of it and if it would help to explain the Knight's identity a little bit.

But all the clues combined and the fact that in ADWD we have Lyanna beating Benjen with a sword in front of a weirwood does really seem to suggest that it's Lyanna. Very clever by the people who came up with that.

[Dave X]

I'm sure it's a stark. The reeds make it pretty clear that it wasn't Howland "the crannogman" with the "or not"s and "sure you haven't heard this one?"s. My vote goes to Lyanna at this point, but I wouldn't rule benjen out. My only argument for him over her being that regardless of L's skill on a horse, those lances were HEAVY and hard to handle at all let alone well, but maybe I'm just being a misogynist there :P. also just because the other Starks owned armor doesn't necessarily rule them out. They could easily rustle up mismatched armor specifically for the purpose of anonymity. I wasn't sure of Ned's age at this point but if he was 16 it probably wasn't him as he would be full grown and he is not known to be small...could be a very late bloomer lol, but not likely at that age.

[Maia]

Ned was 18 during the tourney of Harrenhal, according to his PoV. Nor did he need to disguise himself to participate. And a _laughing_ tree device really doesn't fit him. We had Brienne's voice described as "booming" when she talked from insidle her greathelm - exactly the same expression as used to describe TKoTL. People also didn't recognize her as female until she removed her helm. IMHO, everything points at Lyanna.

[ARYa_Nym]

I love her. I hope we get a flashback of when they first met. It's so romantic. :wub:

Rhaegar told Aerys that he only found the helm or something. I bet she gave it to him.

[The guy from the Vale]

Just to root out that misconception: The armour is never referred to as mismatched, only ill-fitting. Meaning that it was indeed an entire set of armour, just not worn by the person it was made for.

I think it's Benjen's armour, actually. Why mention it in passing if it has no point in the story? But if Lyanna used Benjen's armour, wouldn't she have asked him? At the very least, he must have recognized his own armour when he saw it. So there's also a hint hidden there: Benjen probably was closer to Lyanna than her older brothers. This is also supported by the fact that Benjen and Lyanna were sparring in the Winterfell Godswood.

... which probably means that Benjen could tell us something about Jon's parents. If he is still alive, that is.

[Jayaris]

Basically:

• The Knight is short of stature, as a woman would appear when compared to men.
  
• The Knight has an "illl-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces". If he were a regular knight, he'd have his own armor, while Lyanna would have to improvise her equipment.
  
• The Knight "spoke with a booming voice through his helm", which might be the way how Lyanna hide her woman's voice.
  
• The Knight's sigil is a weirwood tree, a sign of the Old Gods, thus limiting the suspects to people from the North.
  
• In AGOT it is said that Lyanna was a great rider, and in ADWD we learn that she used to train fighting with her brothers.
  
• Lyanna being TKOTLT justifies why Rhaegar (precisely the one who was entrusted by Aerys to discover the identity of the knight) eventually became infatuated with her.
  

If (s)he's improvising equipment who's to say the shield belonged to her or had been re-painted before the tournament? If the armor doesn't belong to her why would the shield?

Brienne and Dunk have walked around for long periods of time with incorrect sigils on their shields.

[Dragonfish]

Ned was 18 during the tourney of Harrenhal, according to his PoV. Nor did he need to disguise himself to participate. And a _laughing_ tree device really doesn't fit him. We had Brienne's voice described as "booming" when she talked from insidle her greathelm - exactly the same expression as used to describe TKoTL. People also didn't recognize her as female until she removed her helm. IMHO, everything points at Lyanna.

Interesting. Do you remember where Brienne's voice is described as booming? I'd love to be able to trot out that quote in future arguments.

[Maia]

OK, not quite booming as I seemed to remember, but nevertheless Brienne talks loudly enough to be heard around the tourney field and Cat doesn't recognise her voice as female because of the greathelm. Catelyn II, ACoK:

The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm.

"You are all your lord father claimed you were." Renly's voice carried over the field. "I've seen Ser Loras unhorsed once or twice . . . but never quite in that fashion."

"That were no proper unhorsing," complained a drunken archer nearby, a Tyrell rose sewn on his jerkin. "A vile trick, pulling the lad down."

The press had begun to open up. "Ser Colen," Catelyn said to her escort, "who is this man, and why do they mislike him so?"

Frankly, it never made any sense to me that people immediately recognized Brienne as female _without_ her helm.

Given her frame and her strong-featured ugly face, not to mention the fact that many knights and fighters are young and mode of dress for different genders is strongly codified, I'd have expected people who didn't know her to consider her an odd young man, high voice or no. But that's by the by.

[amazingoopah]

You know, every time I read this passage, I remember why I love this series. So much story being packed into this part of the story.

Two tidbits I find interesting: Why would Meera take the time to point out Ashara Dayne and with whom she dances in the story? Seems a bit out of place but with all the swirling conspiracies floating out there about Ashara/Ned/Jon's parentage/etc. I find it interesting nevertheless. That 'red snake' thrown in there also deserves a second look... could Oberyn have been at Harrenhal? Not sure about the dates and if this is even possible.

Second: Who did Howland meet at the Isle of Faces and what did he learn from them? (If he actually met someone) Meera sort of 'buries the lede' in my opinion. Personally, I think that whatever happened at the Isle of faces is just as relevant in light of the events at the TOJ and the overall secrecy shrouding Howland.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I love her. I hope we get a flashback of when they first met. It's so romantic. :wub:

Rhaegar told Aerys that he only found the helm or something. I bet she gave it to him.

i think it was the shield that he found. and i bet bran sees a flashback. i wouldnt mind if every chapter from now is just bran seeing stuff from the past... :drool:

[dragontamer]

I find it hard to beleive that a woman defeated three of the last five contenders. I mean they had to be really good to make it to the top five. Even if Lyanna was a good rider and had some sword training it's irreleventant to jousting. Also the booming voice.... it would be hilarious hearing her mimicing a man's voice.

The fact that a note is made that the night before the crannogman prayed to the gods is foreshadowing something of a miracle-like. I don't think though that it was Holand Reed, for that I take Johen's word. Meera says in the beginning that TNOTLT may be a crannogman but Johen says "or not" and I think his word weighs more.

My theory... due to body structure, booming voice, heart tree shield..... it was the wolf pup.... :cheers:

One last thing, note that Johen is clearly dubious about the fact that Bran hasn't heard the story before as if he expected to be frequently told..... why is that?