Knight of the Laughing Tree

[dragontamer]

No evidence? OK, let's simply go by elimination here. The only real suspects are Howland Reed (the crannogman) and the Stark siblings (the wild wolf Brandon, the quiet wolf Ned, the shewolf Lyanna and the wolf pup Benjen). Do we agree so far?

Then let's eliminate Brandon and Ned, who were both adults (at least, over 16) at the time. Noone would call them small. Now Howland Reed isn't much of a horse rider, as Meera stresses in the same story; so how should he win a joust? Basically, we're down to either Lyanna or Benjen. The evidence here is relatively small, but there are several points pointing towards Lyanna. First of all, noone knew Benjen as a fighter, or his armour; he was still a boy of 12 or so. His armour would have disguised him to anyone but his siblings anyway. So why not use his own armour? Then, the entire matter was way more personal for Lyanna than for Benjen; she had defended Howland from the squires; and lastly (and to counter your newest point), in the North Lyanna was well-known as a great horse rider, as Ned, Harwin and Roose Bolton all agree.

Lastly, Rhaegar would hardly have kidnapped a total stranger, or even crowned a total stranger the queen of love and beauty. But it's unlikely that Lyanna and Rhaegar ever met before the tourney, with Lyanna having grown up in Winterfell. Rhaegar getting to know Lyanna at the tourney by finding out she was the mystery knight, and being impressed by her courage, makes about the most sense in this context.

His family knew his armor.

Only 2 years after the tourney Benjen joined the NW and became ranger, later First Ranger, so I assume he was indeed a good fighter.

Lyanna was described as a good rider and fighter probable according to women's measures but for that I can't be sure of course.

Lyanna had already saved the crannogman, he didn't need to avenge him.

The last thing about Rhaegar is mere speculation.

It also doesn't explain how three male siblings left a young sister unattended at a tourney for so long.

And a question because I can't remember right now, wasn't Lyanna one of Elia's lady companions?

[Dragonfish]

Lyanna was described as a good rider and fighter probable according to women's measures but for that I can't be sure of course.

No, she was an excellent rider, period.

Lyanna had already saved the crannogman, he didn't need to avenge him.

Then why would Benjen have done anything at all?

And a question because I can't remember right now, wasn't Lyanna one of Elia's lady companions?

No.

[DocBean]

Is this really a topic?

It's intuitively obvious that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Benjen was too young, had nothing to prove, and Ned would have told his kids the story if he did.

Howland just couldn't do it, and certainly wouldn't brag to his kids about it later in life if he did.

ask yourself what Arya would do in that situation. She'd mount up.

Ned has a reason to never tell the Stark kids that story, and he never did.

[dragontamer]

Not necessarily. It was still really early in the tourney. There was three more days of jousting after TKOTLT pulled her stunt.

I borrow this from Anvik's original post :

"The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions.You know the threehe challenged."

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armour were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered...by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened, Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each sword they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him,, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished."

There are five champion pavilions, and the next morning only two champions show up. There wasn't anyone else.

[Dragonfish]

It doesn't say anywhere in that quote that Rhaegar and Barristan were the two champions who appeared the next day. Note that this was probably not a single-elimination tournament structure, but a tournament structured more like that of The Hedge Knight.

[dragontamer]

No, she was an excellent rider, period.

Then why would Benjen have done anything at all?

No.

I don't even comment the authority of the first reply.

Regarding Benjen I think we all agree there are still a lot we don't know.

And not intending to doubt your memory, but if Lyanna wasn't Elia's companion, why was she at KL?

[dragontamer]

It doesn't say anywhere in that quote that Rhaegar and Barristan were the two champions who appeared the next day. Note that this was probably not a single-elimination tournament structure, but a tournament structured more like that of The Hedge Knight.

There were 5 champion pavilions, it is stated. And the next morning only 2 remained because the KOTLT was vanished. The other 3 were defeated. Do I miss something?

[Dragonfish]

I don't even comment the authority of the first reply.

No one ever says that Lyanna was a good rider "for a woman." They say she was a good rider. Period. You're the one imposing your own "authority" on this. And for reference, here is a direct quote containing a description of Lyanna's skill as a rider:

"Horses...the boy [Domeric] was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

Roose describes her as "half a horse", and lauds his son's superlative riding skills by saying he was even better than Lyanna. These are not things you say about someone who is a good rider "for a woman."

Regarding Benjen I think we all agree there are still a lot we don't know.

But the KotLT's purpose was to humiliate the three knights and get them to teach their squires honor. So what is the point of Benjen doing this, if Howland was already avenged, in your words?

And not intending to doubt your memory, but if Lyanna wasn't Elia's companio, why was she at KL?

She...wasn't.

[Dragonfish]

There were 5 champion pavilions, it is stated. And the next morning only 2 remained because the KOTLT was vanished. The other 3 were defeated. Do I miss something?

Yes, I think you're confused about the tournament structure. Have you read The Hedge Knight?

[Kanon]

Lyanna is the best choice imo

[kg1982]

There were 5 champion pavilions, it is stated. And the next morning only 2 remained because the KOTLT was vanished. The other 3 were defeated. Do I miss something?

That doesn't mean that Rhaegar and Barristan were the champions. It would be considered poor form for the Crown Prince an accomplished jouster to challenge so early.

[dragontamer]

Yes, I think you're confused about the tournament structure. Have you read The Hedge Knight?

No I haven't.

And to end this, I think that the difference between us is that even though I defend my opinions like you do I know that I may well be wrong and accept it. If you read again my statement about Lyanna's skill I said that "I can't be sure of course".

I stick to my opinion that it wasn't Lyanna. I don't bet my life on Benjen but imo seems a good candidate. For all that matters he could be Jaime or anyone else.

[Dragonfish]

No I haven't.

Ah, well that explains it, I think.

The tourney at Harrenhal was not structured like a NCAA Basketball Tournament. The two champions who remained the day after the KotLT showed up would have faced off against further challengers, and probably would have been supplanted by those challengers. As such, we cannot conclude that Rhaegar and Barristan were champions when the KotLT showed up; we can only conclude that they were the remaining champions/challengers at the very end of the tournament.

For future reference, here is a SSM where George talks a little bit about the different possible tournament structures. I would also suggest reading The Hedge Knight to get a little more detail.

And to end this, I think that the difference between us is that even though I defend my opinions like you do I know that I may well be wrong and accept it.

I admitted above that Benjen cannot be ruled out as a candidate. So in what way am I not considering that I might be wrong?

If you read again my statement about Lyanna's skill I said that "I can't be sure of course".

Right, and all I'm doing is showing that we can be sure she was an excellent rider, period.

I stick to my opinion that it wasn't Lyanna. I don't bet my life on Benjen but imo seems a good candidate.

You have a right to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is a well-supported opinion.

[dragontamer]

IMO it's as well supported as any, whether that's poorly or not take your pick.

Jousting may not be just about the physical strenght but it counts. I don't think any amount of talent could defeat the Mountain and to assume that a 15 year old girl defeated not one but three men only by pure talent I find it far fetched.

[Dragonfish]

IMO it's as well supported as any, whether that's poorly or not take your pick.

Jousting may not be just about the physical strenght but it counts. I don't think any amount of talent could defeat the Mountain and to assume that a 15 year old girl defeated not one but three men only by pure talent I find it far fetched.

And you don't find it equally absurd that a boy who was probably twelve or thirteen years old at most could defeat those knights?

See, this is what I meant when I said above that your opinion is not well-supported. Your reasons for discounting Lyanna, when they are not based on misapprehensions (like her possibly being a good rider only for a woman, or your confusion over the structure of the tournament), could just as easily be used to discount Benjen.

[dragontamer]

And you don't find it equally absurd that a boy who was probably twelve or thirteen years old at most could defeat those knights?

See, this is what I meant when I said above that your opinion is not well-supported. Your reasons for discounting Lyanna, when they are not based on misapprehensions (like her possibly being a good rider only for a woman, or your confusion over the structure of the tournament), could just as easily be used to discount Benjen.

I never denied this. My original post was about excluding Lyanna not introducing Benjen. I said he was a wild guess.

[Dragonfish]

I never denied this. My original post was about excluding Lyanna not introducing Benjen. I said he was a wild guess.

So if it's not Lyanna or Benjen, then who is it?

[dragontamer]

I can't be certain but my best guess among the people I know that are present at the tourney is Benjen. But I don't believe that my lack of knowledge counts as argument in favour of Lyanna.

[Dragonfish]

I can't be certain but my best guess among the people I know that are present at the tourney is Benjen. But I don't believe that my lack of knowledge counts as argument in favour of Lyanna.

Well, the only likely candidates are people involved in the confrontation with the three squires. Of those, Brandon and Ned can be eliminated, since they were both adults and not small of stature. Howland can also probably be eliminated, since as a crannogman he wouldn't have known the first thing about riding horses. So that leaves Benjen and Lyanna. As I said before, there really is no reason to discount Lyanna, at least none that would not also discount Benjen. In addition, there are several hints that point toward Lyanna, including the several references to her great prowess as a rider, and Ned's reluctance to tell the story to his children. There is also the fact that Lyanna's being the KotLT would explain a number of things, including how Rhaegar met and fell in love with her, whereas Benjen's being the KotLT would explain...nothing, really. Based on these facts, I have to conclude that Lyanna is the most likely candidate for being the KotLT. What reasons do you have for picking Benjen over her?

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I cant see how it being Benjen would tie into the overall story nearly as well as Lyanna. therefore, i'm going with lyanna. it gives an excuse for lyanna to meet rhaegar. all he "found" was her shield, because she gave her armor back to benjen. that was when they fell in love.