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Knight of the Laughing Tree


Anvik

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Well, the only likely candidates are people involved in the confrontation with the three squires. Of those, Brandon and Ned can be eliminated, since they were both adults and not small of stature. Howland can also probably be eliminated, since as a crannogman he wouldn't have known the first thing about riding horses. So that leaves Benjen and Lyanna. As I said before, there really is no reason to discount Lyanna, at least none that would not also discount Benjen. In addition, there are several hints that point toward Lyanna, including the several references to her great prowess as a rider, and Ned's reluctance to tell the story to his children. There is also the fact that Lyanna's being the KotLT would explain a number of things, including how Rhaegar met and fell in love with her, whereas Benjen's being the KotLT would explain...nothing, really. Based on these facts, I have to conclude that Lyanna is the most likely candidate for being the KotLT. What reasons do you have for picking Benjen over her?

I have said them already but one more time won't harm. A boy can mimic better the voice of an adult man rathen than a girl. The physical strenght, if Benjen was no match for the Knights then Lyanna was even a poorer one, so if it comes to the two of them I believe he has better chance. Benjen must be skilled, he became the FR of the NW.

I pose this question again, when Rhaegar 'kidnapped' Lyanna, where was she?

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IMO it's as well supported as any, whether that's poorly or not take your pick.

Jousting may not be just about the physical strenght but it counts. I don't think any amount of talent could defeat the Mountain and to assume that a 15 year old girl defeated not one but three men only by pure talent I find it far fetched.

Loras Tyrell.

At the same tourney, Ned warns Sansa not to discount Loras against Gregor because of the size, saying that Loras is a skilled rider. He must have seen weak people defeat stronger ones based on horse(wo)manship.

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I have said them already but one more time won't harm. A boy can mimic better the voice of an adult man rathen than a girl. The physical strenght, if Benjen was no match for the Knights then Lyanna was even a poorer one, so if it comes to the two of them I believe he has better chance. Benjen must be skilled, he became the FR of the NW.

I pose this question again, when Rhaegar 'kidnapped' Lyanna, where was she?

I disagree with the first few points you make. A 14 year old girl can be bigger and stronger than a 11 or 12 year old boy and have a deeper voice.

As to your question, no one knows where Lyanna was kidnapped from.

I would like to pose a question to you: If it was Benjen, why has Bran never heard the story?

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Loras Tyrell.

At the same tourney, Ned warns Sansa not to discount Loras against Gregor because of the size, saying that Loras is a skilled rider. He must have seen weak people defeat stronger ones based on horse(wo)manship.

Loras Tyrell defeated the Mountain's stallion.

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the reason i think it is believeable that it is Lyanna is becasue Arya. we see what a fireball she is. would you doubt that an 11 year old arya could beat a 15 year old joffrey in a joust? i definately think she could. the similarities we hear about arya and lyanna lead me to believe that a 15 year old lyanna could take out seasoned knights, especially because of her riding abilities.

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The physical strenght, if Benjen was no match for the Knights then Lyanna was even a poorer one

To answer this, it is mentioned several times by several different characters throughout the series that jousting is about riding. Physical strength doesn't even factor into it.

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I have said them already but one more time won't harm. A boy can mimic better the voice of an adult man rathen than a girl.

He can? I'm not asking this to be snippy, I'm genuinely curious. Is there a science-based reason for a boy with a high-pitched voice to be able to mimic a male's voice better than an older girl?

In any case, the argument isn't just that Lyanna was able to mimic a male's voice, but also that the deepness of her voice was amplified by the helm. As another poster in this thread pointed out, Brienne's voice was altered when she wore her helm, so much so that Catelyn was unable to tell that she was a woman.

The physical strenght, if Benjen was no match for the Knights then Lyanna was even a poorer one, so if it comes to the two of them I believe he has better chance.

Again, is there any reason to think that a boy would have more physical strength than an older girl? Note that Lyanna was actually strong enough to best Benjen in sword fighting (well, stick fighting) and was also strong enough to best three trained squires with nothing but a tourney sword.

Benjen must be skilled, he became the FR of the NW.

But Benjen's skill as a rider has not been singled out on multiple occasions, as Lyanna's has. Her skill was even lauded in the very same passage in which it is re-iterated that jousting is all about horsemanship. Not to mention that her being the KotLT would tie into the story really well, as point out by an above poster.

I pose this question again, when Rhaegar 'kidnapped' Lyanna, where was she?

We don't know.

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Loras Tyrell.

At the same tourney, Ned warns Sansa not to discount Loras against Gregor because of the size, saying that Loras is a skilled rider. He must have seen weak people defeat stronger ones based on horse(wo)manship.

Indeed, in some ways being small of stature can constitute an advantage, since it makes you a smaller target and gives you a lower center of gravity.

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I disagree with the first few points you make. A 14 year old girl can be bigger and stronger than a 11 or 12 year old boy and have a deeper voice.

As to your question, no one knows where Lyanna was kidnapped from.

I would like to pose a question to you: If it was Benjen, why has Bran never heard the story?

If it was Lyanna why has Bran never heard the story?

Ned couldn't have known that Rhaegar found out about Lyanna being the KOTLT, plus Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty in front of everyone, so what was Ned keeping a secret?

Plus if it was Lyanna and that incident lead to her kidnap it may makes some sense for Ned to hide it, thus Johen would be surprised if Bran had heard the story. Johen is surprised that Bran hasn't.

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If it was Lyanna why has Bran never heard the story?

Because thoughts of Lyanna are painful to Ned. He barely talks about her to his children.

Ned couldn't have known that Rhaegar found out about Lyanna being the KOTLT, plus Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty in front of everyone, so what was Ned keeping a secret?

Why couldn't Ned have known?

Plus if it was Lyanna and that incident lead to her kidnap it may makes some sense for Ned to hide it, thus Johen would be surprised if Bran had heard the story. Johen is surprised that Bran hasn't.

No, it wouldn't make sense for Ned to hide it, not to Jojen. It would make sense for Ned to explain his family's history and past exploits to his children, including those events that led to the war. Jojen just doesn't understand how painful memories of Lyanna were to Ned.

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He still defeated him. And Ned knew he could do it. It's Gregor's fault for choosing an unsuited horse. Your point again?

Being cunning is not being capable. Loras had defeated Jaime so he definately was skilled but against the Mountain he felt he needed to use a trick. Of course other factors play a part but physical strenght is one of them.

And if Lyanna was able due to skill then so was Benjen.

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If it was Lyanna why has Bran never heard the story?

Ned couldn't have known that Rhaegar found out about Lyanna being the KOTLT, plus Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty in front of everyone, so what was Ned keeping a secret?

Plus if it was Lyanna and that incident lead to her kidnap it may makes some sense for Ned to hide it, thus Johen would be surprised if Bran had heard the story. Johen is surprised that Bran hasn't.

Ned would almost certainly know if it was Lyanna and it is painful for him to remember therefore he doesn't speak of it. Also, the possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna coming into contact could lead to the discovery of R+L. Ned kept the entire tourney a secret from his kids, not just the KOtLT.

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Being cunning is not being capable. Loras had defeated Jaime so he definately was skilled but against the Mountain he felt he needed to use a trick. Of course other factors play a part but physical strenght is one of them.

The point is that Ned outright states that you should not discount smaller opponents in jousting.

And if Lyanna was able due to skill then so was Benjen.

Yes, but there's no point to Benjen being the KotLT, nor is there any point in hiding it if that were the case. It just doesn't make for a very good story. On the other hand, Lyanna being the KotLT does make for a good story.

ETA: Note to mention that no one here is ruling out Benjen as a possible candidate. The only person who's trying to rule anyone out is you. We're just pointing out why your reasons for eliminating Lyanna as a candidate are not well-founded.

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Being cunning is not being capable. Loras had defeated Jaime so he definately was skilled but against the Mountain he felt he needed to use a trick. Of course other factors play a part but physical strenght is one of them.

And if Lyanna was able due to skill then so was Benjen.

Possibly. So why not Lyanna? I got a feeling you are dismissing her out of pure misogyny. She is certainly more viable than Benjen or Howland Reed. She is renowned rider, that's been confirmed by a few characters, and nowhere was there the dismissive "for a girl" that you try to suggest. She was a great rider, compared to other, mostly male, horseriders of the time. She is a reasonable candidate for KotLT and in the context, makes more sense than others.

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When Lyanna was kidnapped he wasn't at Winterfall, I have thought of places where se could be and the only other place I can think of is KL. IMO he was Elia's companion and Rhaegar already knew her, so he had no reason to "meet' her at the tourney. Besides that I find no other solid argument which favours her.

That's my opinion, I heard all arguments but won't abide.

One last thing, as I said in my first post, the prayer of the crannogman and his visit at the Isle of faces might have resulted in a miracle-like situation where he himself defeated the Knights, if he had nothing to do with it why vanish the next day?

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ETA: Note to mention that no one here is ruling out Benjen as a possible candidate. The only person who's trying to rule anyone out is you. We're just pointing out why your reasons for eliminating Lyanna as a candidate are not well-founded.

I am not saying it was not Lyanna as a rule, I said that IMO she wasn't. We then had a debate and I presented my arguments. I don't claim a direct line to Martin's mind.

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Possibly. So why not Lyanna? I got a feeling you are dismissing her out of pure misogyny. She is certainly more viable than Benjen or Howland Reed. She is renowned rider, that's been confirmed by a few characters, and nowhere was there the dismissive "for a girl" that you try to suggest. She was a great rider, compared to other, mostly male, horseriders of the time. She is a reasonable candidate for KotLT and in the context, makes more sense than others.

misogyny? For God's sake.... I am a woman. Do I resent my own sex?

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misogyny? For God's sake.... I am a woman. Do I resent my own sex?

Sure, why not. It happens quite often.

EDIT:

Besides, it's not the point.

You are suggesting that Benjen is almost a child, a few year younger than teenage Lyanna is a better candidate. He won't be stronger than her, not yet. There are also no mentions that Benjen was somehow exceptionally strong. There are mentions about how skilled rider was Lyanna, yet no one remembers Benjen as such. Lyanna also trained (more or less secretly) for a few years more than Benjen, and that matters. But despite that you think she is less likely candidate, because she is a girl.

What would you call it?

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