Knight of the Laughing Tree

[dragontamer]

Sure, why not. It happens quite often.

Ok yes why not? I guess if you say so then yes I am a misogynist, I mean you do know me better than I do.

[Dragonfish]

When Lyanna was kidnapped he wasn't at Winterfall

This we don't know for sure, though there are fair arguments to this effect.

I have thought of places where se could be and the only other place I can think of is KL.

King's Landing is not the only place she could have been. Others have argued that she stayed at Harrenhal, for instance.

IMO he was Elia's companion and Rhaegar already knew her, so he had no reason to "meet' her at the tourney. Besides that I find no other solid argument which favours her.

Why would a Stark be a handmaiden to a Martell? This doesn't make any sense, and has absolutely no support in the text.

That's my opinion, I heard all arguments but won't abide.

Just because something is your opinion doesn't make it just as valid as anyone else's opinion. You have to back up your opinion with facts and arguments, and so far your arguments have been found wanting.

One last thing, as I said in my first post, the prayer of the crannogman and his visit at the Isle of faces might have resulted in a miracle-like situation where he himself defeated the Knights, if he had nothing to do with it why vanish the next day?

I expect a better explanation than "a wizard did it."

Besides, the surprise that Jojen shows about the fact that Bran didn't know the story strongly suggests that identity of the KotLT is a Stark.

[Dragonfish]

I am not saying it was not Lyanna as a rule, I said that IMO she wasn't. We then had a debate and I presented my arguments. I don't claim a direct line to Martin's mind.

Yes, and it was your arguments that I was arguing against. Quit hiding behind the "it's just my opinion!" defense.

[dragontamer]

This we don't know for sure, though there are fair arguments to this effect.

King's Landing is not the only place she could have been. Others have argued that she stayed at Harrenhal, for instance.

Why would a Stark be a handmaiden to a Martell? This doesn't make any sense, and has absolutely no support in the text.

Just because something is your opinion doesn't make it just as valid as anyone else's opinion. You have to back up your opinion with facts and arguments, and so far your arguments have been found wanting.

I expect a better explanation than "a wizard did it."

Besides, the surprise that Jojen shows about the fact that Bran didn't know the story strongly suggests that identity of the KotLT is a Stark.

Was Ashara Dayne a handmaiden? I believe it's quite an honor to be among the companions of the future queen.

You could be right, he may have stayed in Harrenhal afterwards but that's not cleared yet.

My opinion is only valid to me I guess, but there must be some substance if it keeps you debating for so long and don't discard it as stupid.

And do you deny the existence of magic in Martin's work?

[The Northern Scholar]

Besides, the surprise that Jojen shows about the fact that Bran didn't know the story strongly suggests that identity of the KotLT is a Stark.

Exactly. It doesn't make sense to me that Jojen would react with such surprise over the fact that Bran had never heard the tale.

Additionally, I think there are clues within the chapter that explain why Ned never told his children about the tournament. After hearing the story Bran makes a comment about how the wolf maid should be the queen of love and beauty, to which Meera replies, "She was... but that's a sadder story."

[dragontamer]

Yes, and it was your arguments that I was arguing against. Quit hiding behind the "it's just my opinion!" defense.

But it is my opinion and just that. Maybe you have figured out the biggest secrets of the series but I don't so I just contribute my opinion and not my knowledge.

[Dragonfish]

Was Ashara Dayne a handmaiden? I believe it's quite an honor to be among the companions of the future queen.

Yes, but the Daynes are bannermen to House Martell. It makes sense for a daughter of House Dayne to be a handmaiden to a Martell queen. It makes absolutely no sense for the daughter of a Great House to be the handmaiden to the daughter of another Great House, especially when their houses are so geographically and culturally far apart.

My opinion is only valid to me I guess, but there must be some substance if it keeps you debating for so long and don't discard it as stupid.

The length of time debating an argument does indicate the merit of the argument, just the amount of intransigence of the arguer.

And do you deny the existence of magic in Martin's work?

Sure, but not magic of the Ass Pull variety.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

When Lyanna was kidnapped he wasn't at Winterfall, I have thought of places where se could be and the only other place I can think of is KL. IMO he was Elia's companion and Rhaegar already knew her, so he had no reason to "meet' her at the tourney. Besides that I find no other solid argument which favours her.

That's my opinion, I heard all arguments but won't abide.

I'm not sure what to make of this argument. There is no evidence in the text to suggest that Lyanna even knew Elia, much less that they were companions and it was never mentioned that Lyanna was ever in KL or that she knew Rhaegar prior to the tourney. The KotLT, if Lyanna, explains how Rhaegar and Lyanna met and why Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty. Why would you make up a completely unsupported theory and refuse to abide one that is based on textual evidence and makes a lot of sense?

[Dragonfish]

But it is my opinion and just that. Maybe you have figured out the biggest secrets of the series but I don't so I just contribute my opinion and not my knowledge.

You haven't just offered an opinion, you offered an argument as well, and it is the argument that I am contesting, as I have already plainly stated. Your continued attempts to defend yourself by saying it's all just your opinion is pretty typical of someone who has no argument left.

[kg1982]

A wild 14 year old wouldn't have been given the honor of serving as the princess's companion. Plus, it appears that all of Elia's ladies were her friends from Dorne. Not to mention the fact that Lya wouldn't be welcome at court because of a certain scene at Harrenhal

The best theory is that Lya remained at Harrenhal after the tourney as the whent's guest. Brandon also probably remained in the Riverlands.

[dragontamer]

Yes, but the Daynes are bannermen to House Martell. It makes sense for a daughter of House Dayne to be a handmaiden to a Martell queen. It makes absolutely no sense for the daughter of a Great House to be the handmaiden to the daughter of another Great House, especially when their houses are so geographically and culturally far apart.

Good argument. I will consider this more. I was just thinking that the more convinient place for the "kidnapping" was KL especially if Lyanna consented. It would be difficult to plan it if she was at Harrenhal.

The length of time debating an argument does indicate the merit of the argument, just the amount of intransigence of the arguer.

As you said you don't exclude Benjen, why should I?

Sure, but not magic of the Ass Pull variety.

I guess the zombie like Uncat is magic of the highest standards

[Dragonfish]

As you said you yourseld don't exclude Benjen, why should I?

I'm not saying you should exclude Benjen. What I am saying is that you cannot exclude Lyanna as a candidate, and that she is moreover the most likely candidate.

I guess the zombie like Uncat is magic of the highest standards

I don't think you know what an Ass Pull is:

"An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."

Now explain to me how Cat's resurrection qualifies as an Ass Pull.

[dragontamer]

You haven't just offered an opinion, you offered an argument as well, and it is the argument that I am contesting, as I have already plainly stated. Your continued attempts to defend yourself by saying it's all just your opinion is pretty typical of someone who has no argument left.

I have arguments. You admitted it. I have no one left because you rejected them all. But as my belief in them doesn't make them true, nor your denial makes them false. To point out that it's my opinion is to say there is room for doubt. I would gladly abide to the popular theory if I was convinced but I am not. You just have to call me stubborn and accept it.

I mean according to The Snow King I am a misogynist, stubborn would actually be an improvement.

[dragontamer]

I don't think you know what an Ass Pull is:

"An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detailby dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."

Now explain to me how Cat's resurrection qualifies as an Ass Pull.

Forgive my ignorance I didn't know this. I try hard to debate for so long using a language that's not my mother tongue.

Knowing this I think that the crannogman's prayer was foreshadowing.

[Dragonfish]

Forgive my ignorance I didn't know this. I try hard to debate for so long using a language that's not my mother tongue.

Knowing this I think that the crannogman's prayer was foreshadowing.

I don't consider a prayer to be foreshadowing of previously unheard of magic that would allow a terrible rider to become a great jouster.

[dragontamer]

I don't consider a prayer to be foreshadowing of previously unheard of magic that would allow a terrible rider to become a great jouster.

OK

[the trees have eyes]

I have arguments. You admitted it. I have no one left because you rejected them all. But as my belief in them doesn't make them true, nor your denial makes them false. To point out that it's my opinion is to say there is room for doubt. I would gladly abide to the popular theory if I was convinced but I am not. You just have to call me stubborn and accept it.

I mean according to The Snow King I am a misogynist, stubborn would actually be an improvement.

You do have arguments and I quite like them.

I have never understood why the main protagonist in the Crannogman's Tale is assumed to be Lyanna Stark not Howland Reed. I mean if you think about it that way the Crannogman left his home, went to the Isle of Faces to meet the Greenseers and the Children of the Forest, stayed there for a year, then got beaten up by some squires at Harrenhal. That's his story. Wow, that surely is epic and what a star out Crannogman is. Or not.

Why did the Crannogman pray to the Old Gods if not to receive some assistance from the Children / Greenseers?

Why was the shield a weirwood face if not to empthasise the connnection between the Crannogman's visit to the Isle of Faces and the KOTLT?

Why are we told that Benjen took him back to his tent and found him armour if not for him to wear in the jousts?

I know Lyanna was an excellent rider but is there any evidence that she knew how to joust? Being good on a horse (Arya for example is a good rider) does not mean someone can joust or will knock down three trained knights in quick succession.

I understand why people like the idea and it may well be true but I find it hard to see a young girl from a noble family playing this part, however headstrong or fiery a character. Why did her brothers let her? If she was unmasked it would be a great scandal, shaming the knights who had so unchivalrously fought not just a wonman but a girl. And there would have been hell to pay if she got the Red Viper treatment Wyllas Tyrell did. Did no one notice her absence from the stands? As the daughter of one of the greatest lords of the realm she was certainly placed prominently enough among the spectators for Rhaegar to approach and give her the crown of beauty on the last day. Why would she need to flee at all to avoid unmasking? It was at the feast at night that Robert and Richard Lonmouth swore to unmask the knight. She didn't need to flee. She had already left the armour in Benjen's tent and was walking around wearing her gowns with no one suspecting what she had done. Hell she was sat right there when they swore to "find" her.

Possibly. So why not Lyanna? I got a feeling you are dismissing her out of pure misogyny. She is certainly more viable than Benjen or Howland Reed. She is renowned rider, that's been confirmed by a few characters, and nowhere was there the dismissive "for a girl" that you try to suggest. She was a great rider, compared to other, mostly male, horseriders of the time. She is a reasonable candidate for KotLT and in the context, makes more sense than others.

Leave out the ad hominem stuff, will ya. There's no reason to take a difference of opinion any further than that. No one knows who the KOTLT was so it's pure daftness to bash someone for thinking differently to you about an unknown identity.

[themick]

I was always under the assumption that the KotLT was Ned. Pretty much all the arguments for Lyanna or Howland can be used for Ned. Heck I believe Howland and Ned shared a room before the KotLT appeared. Maybe Ned decided to do it for Howland and thats why they became such good friends?

It just seems strange that Lyanna would be able to beat experienced grown knights. She might be a good rider and have practied at rings but that doesnt mean a whole lot. Shes not a big person but she can manage to hold a lance and control the horse and wear armor? Seems far fetched. But it would explain all the Rhaegar stuff.

[Dragonfish]

I have never understood why the main protagonist in the Crannogman's Tale is assumed to be Lyanna Stark not Howland Reed. I mean if you think about it that way the Crannogman left his home, went to the Isle of Faces to meet the Greenseers and the Children of the Forest, stayed there for a year, then got beaten up by some squires at Harrenhal. That's his story. Wow, that surely is epic and what a star out Crannogman is. Or not.

The story isn't about the crannogman, it's about the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Why did the Crannogman pray to the Old Gods if not to receive some assistance from the Children / Greenseers?

Why did Arya pray to the old gods in ACOK? Was she asking for help from the children/greenseers?

Why was the shield a weirwood face if not to empthasise the connnection between the Crannogman's visit to the Isle of Faces and the KOTLT?

Weirwoods are not exclusive to the Isle of Faces. Most of them are in the north. Furthermore, it may very well be that Lyanna was listening in on Howland during his prayer, and later chose to use the sigil as a nod to that.

In any case, for what reason would Howland choose a "laughing" tree? That kind of mischievous, mocking symbol doesn't seem to be in his character, but it is very much in Lyanna's character.

Why are we told that Benjen took him back to his tent and found him armour if not for him to wear in the jousts?

That's not what happened, IIRC. Benjen offered him armor so he could take his vengeance in the lists, and Howland refused. Probably because crannogmen don't know the first thing about riding horses.

I know Lyanna was an excellent rider but is there any evidence that she knew how to joust? Being good on a horse (Arya for example is a good rider) does not mean someone can joust or will knock down three trained knights in quick succession.

We are told by Jaime that jousting is three quarters horsemanship, and this idea is re-iterated as well by Roose Bolton, in the very same passage in which he praises Lyanna's riding skills. The idea that Lyanna might be able to joust well has far more support in the text than the idea that Howland suddenly learned to joust through the power of previously unheard of magic.

Why did her brothers let her?

Who says she asked permission?

Did no one notice her absence from the stands? As the daughter of one of the greatest lords of the realm she was certainly placed prominently enough among the spectators for Rhaegar to approach and give her the crown of beauty on the last day.

Harrenhal is a huge place, and the tourney itself was huge as well. Nearly all the major lords and their children were in attendance. It's hardly farfetched that no one noticed that one of them happened to not be at the tourney that day.

Why would she need to flee at all to avoid unmasking?

Flee? When did she flee? All we know is that Rhaegar "found" her shield (though I'm of a mind that she gave it to him after he figured out it was her).

[Dragonfish]

I was always under the assumption that the KotLT was Ned. Pretty much all the arguments for Lyanna or Howland can be used for Ned. Heck I believe Howland and Ned shared a room before the KotLT appeared. Maybe Ned decided to do it for Howland and thats why they became such good friends?

Ned was eighteen at the tourney of Harrenhal. As such, he would've been a full grown adult, and not small of stature, as the KotLT was.